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Courts let cops violate 4th Amendment, murder people in their own home
- Thread starter Bonesinium
- Start date
See there frenchie, I don't feel like I'm in a hole at all. So I'm all set thanks. Just because I don't agree with the majority of all the tin foil hats here, doesn't mean I'm wrong and need to stop talking. I'm only responding when called out.
ack i don't think its tinfoil. your just on a site with alot of liberty minded people who feel not only did this poor guy have his rights violated but he payed with his life. then the people who violated his rights and took his life lied and the legal system backed them up. alot of people have a problem with that. you appear to have no problem with this. but i'm sure if it happened to you or a family memeber you would be pissed off too. i'm sure your going to come back and say the police said he charged with a knife. don't bother they were liers and dishonest cops who should have been fired on the spot. so any statement they give on the facts are just bullsh*t and we can't believe them.
I feel that was a good summary of that side of the argument. I absolutely agree that this was a debacle that should have went completely different.
Courts have stated over and over again that these situations are tense, uncertain, rapidly evolving. The officer had to make a split second decision based on his perceive circumstances. Yeah they lied about not knocking but we don't know that this officer lied, but you always assume he's a liar just because he's a police officer.
Of course I am biased because of my current position as a police officer. I love my job and all the good that we do. And several of you are on the complete other end of the spectrum so let's all just agree to disagree.
Many of you all cry, "change, we need change!" Then go out and change it. That's fine but I highly doubt anybody posting on this thread will ever do much about it other than voice their opinion here.
I'll be first to agree the problem in today's society is with judges not with the police. They don't hold people accountable for the crimes they commit.
In my opinion, for a civilized society to work, there needs to be laws with actual consequences, so there will always be a need for police and the equipment use to keep themselves and the public safe against those that wish otherwise.
^^^this...the only way that this shooting may have been warranted is if it didn't happen during an uncalled and incorrectly conducted raid...this is not a bashing all cops thread this is bashing the court system as well as the LEO's involved in this incident...the fact that the cops lied about what happened makes you wonder if it all went down the way it was reported since they have control of the evidence...cops need to be held accountable too...whoever called for the raid should lose their job for sure at a minimum...i thought LEOs were trained to shoot center mass for a greater potential for hitting the target, this guy was shot in the head...twice
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actually i believe we are seeing people making a change. the change is happening with jury's across the country also a large portion of the population who do not trust leo's. I have even personally seen some issues being brought up in town hall meetings. you personally might not notice but in my life time there has been a huge swing in how the people view the police, people are actually teaching their children now not to talk with the police they are not your friend. yes there are some great LEO's out there but there are alot of corrupt dishonest ones, and when the unions or judges back them up LEO's as a whole are going to pay the price. Ack i would not blanket people on here as anti police if you actually see and read most of the posts most people seem open minded. there has been numerous times i seen people post that was a good shoot and side with police. we'll just agree to disagree.
^^^i agree with this also...part of this has to do with hearing more bad stories reported and sensationalized about police rather than the good stories...the good stories don't get the type of feedback that the bad stories do (generate clicks on news sites)...i feel like it also has a lot to do with the type of people who become cops nowadays vs before and the other part of that has to do with their leadership, training and not being corrupted by a feeling of superiority or being above the law
wouldn't that mean his head was sticking out around a door or something and not actually charging the officer then if his torso wasn't available?...unless he had a neck like a giraffe...and in that case how would the officer have even see the knife?
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GPP
NES Member
Yeah, 2 head shots makes the whole thing look that much more suspect.
It's the world we live in these days. We have instant news 24 hours a day and social media access 24 hours a day to be able to hear and discuss these things.
Yes guys just getting on the job now have different mentalities and thought process then guys do from different generations. But I feel like police were much more corrupt back in the day then they are now. Not that I was a police officer back then but we know there were no digital surveillance cameras , no cellphones, no social media, etc. Police are much more professional and "friendlier" these days than it was say 30 years ago.
GPP
NES Member
When you say " professional" , what do you think that means? Id disagree with friendlier with the new guys, it seems the under 30 crowd of cops have a very difficult time interacting with the public. Maybe its a millenial thing.
I disagree with you on the fact that he shot twice. Very easy to pull the trigger twice in that crazy situation. As you know SWAT members are held to a higher standard wih shooting qualifications. We're all good shots. We have to be or we don't make it or you get kicked off the team if you can't keep up your standards.
And especially if this is a very close quarters situation. This could have been only from a few feet away so a headshot in that case would not be very difficult and would probably be the shot I would take as well if I could.
Maybe the guy had his arm with the knife and just his head out of a doorway. And when he took a step forward, toward the officer, he shot.
It's all really just speculation as we have no idea what the exact facts were.
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this is the real problem here...and we may never know...maybe swat should start wearing body cameras since they are held to a higher standard than regular officers...this way there would be no question as to what happened...cause this whole thing just looks bad
GPP
NES Member
Im gonna go ahead and ignore your swat members held to a higher standard comment lol.
Your CQB theory has some merit, but that would mean the highly trained commandos were pretty far into the apt by the time the knife wielding guy was up and at them, wouldnt it? They make entry unnanounced, and begin to dynamically clear the apt, and come across the guy? 2 headshots? Our swat guy is presumably moving, right? 2 headshots from a stable platform/position is difficult enough, add in stress, low light, and movement, and those shots get exponentially harder, dont they?
Your head and arm out of a doorway is bogus too, in my opinion of course. Thats not really an imminent threat is it?
don't a lot or all of squad cars have cameras now?...and do those have audio?...the problem is that the car is not always pointed in the direction of what's going on so a body camera on officers would catch everything
But if we try to film them we are threatened with resisting arresting, cameras taken etc.
There was a study or finding out in Cali that I had looked at and they found when the cops had cameras both sides, cops and citizens were cleared (maybe not the right word there) at a higher rate than without cameras. And the kicker is that complaints against the cops went down further since it could be proved they did not do what they were accused of due to the video.
So I would hope that most cops are for this, not that it change everything.
There was a study or finding out in Cali that I had looked at and they found when the cops had cameras both sides, cops and citizens were cleared (maybe not the right word there) at a higher rate than without cameras. And the kicker is that complaints against the cops went down further since it could be proved they did not do what they were accused of due to the video.
So I would hope that most cops are for this, not that it change everything.
i don't think his statement is wrong pertaining to marksmanship if swat has to qualify more and keep up their qualifications...but how often does swat have to qualify and what is the test like?...like a cqb test or a range test?...i mean held to a higher standard as compared to a patrol officer who has to qualify what once a year?...doesn't really mean much...the degree of difference is what i'm interested in
i agree that a guy with a knife and his head sticking out of a door isn't really a threat if he was far enough away and not charging...but no idea if the the swat guy was moving or stationary, no idea if the guy was moving or stationary, no idea of the layout of the house or where they shot the guy...2 headshots in low light moving or not moving is still pretty hard depending on proximity...doesn't smell good...it does seem like maryland is a little too swat happy though...
http://watchdogwire.com/maryland/2014/08/19/more-than-6500-swat-raids-in-maryland-since-2010/
i still don't know how they got into the apartment...it was a 2 unit house correct?...they said they used the battering ram (but they didn't)...maybe the exterior door to the hall was open since there are 2 units in the house...how did they gain entry into the guy's apartment?...pick the lock?...unlocked door?...kicked the door in?...at what point do they have to announce?...the exterior door or the interior door into the apartment?
Maybe I could word that better...lol...we need a higher qualification score. 90% as opposed to 80%. But as a firearms instructor, I need a 94% or above. But you get it. Guy could be a great shot. Who knows. From a 15ft and in, head shots are not that difficult.
We don't know if he was moving. We don't know where in the apartment the encounter happened. Maybe there was a brief stand off once the encounter was made. Moving shots are no doubt harder but from CQB range. Not so much.
I disagree with your last point. Its imminent if he now takes a step toward you. 21ft rule right?
I find this funny for two reasons.
First, you keep saying we don't know the facts. I actually agree, but for different reasons. Mainly because it would be stupid to take the cops for their word when they had already proven to lied.
But you DO believe them. So why the speculation on your part? If you had read the court opinion, you wouldn't need to invent a scenario that nobody, not even the cops are claiming.
I knew you would.
Haha....We're making progress. At least we're getting to know each other. lol
But seriously, humor me for a minute. I know, your NOT a police officer and if you were, you wouldn't even been there...I get it. But if those were the god's honest circumstances, and that WAS you, you still wouldn't defend yourself?? Really?
I guess I hold self preservation too high on my list.
As you said, I wouldn't be there, so it is an impossible question. I don't commit armed home invasions.
If you were robbing a store, and the clerk pulled a knife on you, you wouldn't defend yourself? Really?
If you were robbing a store, and the clerk pulled a knife on you, you wouldn't defend yourself? Really?
Well said. I wonder if ACK495 would have a change of heart if some plants were found outside of his home that the state didn't like. But then again, I'm sure he wouldn't have time to change his mind because some of his friends would have to put two in his brain pan @ 4:00 am.
I make sure to hide my marijuana better. Listen to Biggie Small's 10 crack commandments. Lays it all out for you.
If I came at a clearly identified police officer with a knife, and disregarded his commands, I wouldn't expect the result to be any different for me.
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people breaking into my home at 4am in the dark are always clearly identified and I have more than enough time and ability to comprehend that before I try and protect myself.
and clearly when presented with a group of armed officers there to arrest me, seeing as I am thinking clearly and everything is clear, the best course of action is to try and attack said armed officers with a knife
seems legit
I just love the hypocrisy. They do this at 0430 without announcing who they are before entering specifically so that the occupant is confused and disoriented, yet when they kill him claim there is no way he could not have known they were police. Yep, totally legit.
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