Definition of "Direct Control"

[ochmude]

Eh, way to many "what if's". I honestly am not sure if I intended that to be a serious question or not when I posted it. I am curious, but I'm pretty certain you'd just have to get arrested and go to trial in order to find out what the real answer is, so I suppose it's rather pointless to ask.

 

[Len-2A Training]

My head hurts

Join the club!

 

[M1911]

What about those red cable locks they sell with handguns in MA? If I lock the slide open and feed a cable lock through or lock the cylinder open with a cable lock, can I then just put them in my range bag?

Nope. For transport in a vehicle, the requirement is: "unless such weapon is unloaded and contained within the locked trunk of such vehicle or in a locked case or other secure container." A cable lock is not a container. See: http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/140-131c.htm

For storage, however, a cable lock is OK: "unless such weapon is secured in a locked container or equipped with a tamper-resistant mechanical lock or other safety device" See: http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/140-131l.htm

Does that make sense? Of course not, but this is MA laws we're talking about, so what did you expect? As someone posted on a different thread, you've passed through the looking glass, Alice.

 

[M1911]

So, in the event I park my vehicle and it then falls under storage laws, one of these cable locks is fine. As soon as I start my vehicle up and begin to move, it is no longer fine and it now has to be put into a secure container or back in my holster. Let's not forget, I have an LTC A ALP.

That's unclear to me. Is a parked vehicle storage or transport in a vehicle? The conservative choice is to obey the stricter of the two, which is transport in a vehicle (unloaded and locked in a secure container).

 

[drgrant]

So, in the event I park my vehicle and it then falls under storage laws, one of these cable locks is fine. As soon as I start my vehicle up and begin to move, it is no longer fine and it now has to be put into a secure container or back in my holster. Let's not forget, I have an LTC A ALP.

The law is unclear here. Part of the problem is a LEO might construe/assume that the guns were transported in that vehicle in that illegal configuration. There's also been a prevailing notional that trigger locks are irrelevant in vehicle storage because of this.

Using a trigger lock in this scenario is a dumb idea anyways. What if you had to move your car and did not have time to retrieve the gun? Say you just had to move the car across the street for some reason. You're probably not going to go through the gyrations of unlocking and carrying your firearm on your person for that 30 foot trip, yet you would still be technically breaking the law with the stupid trigger lock. It's just a bad idea all around.

It's easier to simply forget about silly garbage like trigger locks outside of your own home and only use secure containers. Better still, don't use the damn things at all.


-Mike

 

[squirt]

Oh how I wish I could leave this hell hole of a state. .. .

 

[MXD]

This is a rhetorical statement but here goes anyway. Someone needs to start from the top and rewrite the MGL. The more I learn, the further from logic I end up.

 

[M1911]

This is a rhetorical statement but here goes anyway. Someone needs to start from the top and rewrite the MGL. The more I learn, the further from logic I end up.

Maybe someone like GOAL, perhaps? http://massgunlawreform.com/

 

[Titan]

The MA law is clearly irrational.

I believe the principle of 'direct control' is to prevent access by others in the vehicle, or who may gain access to the vehicle.

To me, any form of off body carry runs the risk of failing 'direct control' interpretation by LEOs, AGs, etc.

Even the holster on the front of the drivers seat (under your legs) can be a problem. While arguably under your direct control while driving, if you exit the car to pump gas or something, it's no longer under your direct control. If you move it to your body upon exit, you risk being seen and reported.


My simple rules...

On my body is direct control.

Off my body, my gun is unloaded and in a locked container or the trunk.

Case closed. It works for me.

 

[depicts]

ETA: by the way, I've been told by several different LEOs that "under direct control" means within arm's reach of a properly licensed individual. What I wonder is: does it matter if there is someone else in the car who is unlicensed?

Damn, and I have such short arms. Scrivener, can tall people with longs arms store their firearms further away from the drivers seat than I can????



I'm finding this discussion fascinating. What I get out of it is, with a LTC ALP, I can carry a loaded firearm on my person in a car as I drive.

I could carry two loaded guns, maybe a back up gun.

And there is nothing that says I can't carry more than 2 firearms at one time, other than maybe a COP who calls it "unsuitable".

So what I'm going to do from now on when I go to the range, I am going to carry all my pistols on my body fully loaded to and from the range. I will lock my range bag and gun cases in my trunk. When I get to the range, I will set all 9 of my pistols on a table, and then break out my cases, targets and stapler later.

Gosh this forum just helps so much. I'm lovin' being in Massachusetts.

 

[Scrivener]

So what I'm going to do from now on when I go to the range, I am going to carry all my pistols on my body fully loaded to and from the range. I will lock my range bag and gun cases in my trunk. When I get to the range, I will set all 9 of my pistols on a table, and then break out my cases, targets and stapler later..

Hope you have an "A."

 

[Dr. CCW]

Actually, posession of the bag of weed under an ounce (which is a pretty big bag of weed) would not be a crime, but a civil infraction. If you were not driving you would not be required to provide ID, but in either case you would get a $50 ticket.

 

[depicts]

Actually, posession of the bag of weed under an ounce (which is a pretty big bag of weed) would not be a crime, but a civil infraction. If you were not driving you would not be required to provide ID, but in either case you would get a $50 ticket.

Maybe no crime, but it sure opens the door for a Chief to say "unsuitable". Just because it is no longer a criminal offense to have a little bit, a Chief would almost surely take your ticket away if you got cited for pot.

 

[depicts]

Hope you have an "A."

Yes, of course that goes without saying. I said ALP, no longer correct. I understand. And I did forget this in my last post

 

[terraformer]

It's easier to carry machine guns. Since they are not hi capacity rifles or shotguns, you can just lay them on the back seat. Jack.

No, you just need to keep signed, notarized copies in triplicate of your form 4s, birth certificate, the deed to your house, last will and testament and stop & shop card when transporting your lead spewing death sticks.

 

[ceo012384]

If direct control is considered to be within arms reach, I don't see why Scriv seems to think that handguns (loaded or not) on the passenger seat (in a range bag or not) of a car piloted by an LTC-A ALP holder is illegal transport....?

Or is the issue that arms reach has not been shown in case law to be direct control?

Just curious... i usually put all handguns but my carry weapon into my range bag and then lock it closed.

 

[drgrant]

I think the deal is that most gun lawyers advise against such storage because it leaves things more open to interpretation. In other words, taking a stricter/more conservative interpretation may just keep you out of court to begin with.

I read about one case where they found a licensed guy with a loaded handgun in in the backseat pocket where it wasn't an issue, but a lack of a charge under the applicable law is
meaningless... In that case there were other overriding issues, so the DA might simply not have bothered trying to play the improper storage card.

-Mike

 

[Blitz1]

If direct control is considered to be within arms reach, I don't see why Scriv seems to think that handguns (loaded or not) on the passenger seat (in a range bag or not) of a car piloted by an LTC-A ALP holder is illegal transport....?

Or is the issue that arms reach has not been shown in case law to be direct control?

Just curious... i usually put all handguns but my carry weapon into my range bag and then lock it closed.

What if you're in an accident?

 

[Maxspeed]

Ok I have read through this whole thread. I just want to make sure I am in compliance..LTC-A ALP

1) I can carry my loaded handgun in my pocket in a holster.

2) I can carry an unloaded handgun in a hard sided locked case on my passenger seat.

3) I can carry my unloaded handguns in my soft sided unlocked range bag that is locked in my trunk.

4) I can carry my unloaded rifles in unlocked soft cases that are locked in my trunk.

 

[M1911]

Ok I have read through this whole thread. I just want to make sure I am in compliance..LTC-A ALP

1) I can carry my loaded handgun in my pocket in a holster.

2) I can carry an unloaded handgun in a hard sided locked case on my passenger seat.

3) I can carry my unloaded handguns in my soft sided unlocked range bag that is locked in my trunk.

4) I can carry my unloaded rifles in unlocked soft cases that are locked in my trunk.

All of those methods are completely legal. Personally, I'd change #2 to put it the trunk out of site (better to keep it out of site if you are stopped for a traffic violation), but it is not necessary to be within the statute.

 

[Mikel131]

For example:
"Section 131C. (a) No person carrying a loaded firearm under a Class A license issued under section 131 or 131F shall carry the same in a vehicle unless such firearm while carried therein is under the direct control of such person. Whoever violates the provisions of this subsection shall be punished by a fine of $500."

Suppose I wanted to unholster my weapon while driving and place it on the floor (I know all the reasons this is a bad idea, I'm only using this as an example). Is that still under my direct control? Is there a definition of direct control?

?

 

[Maxspeed]

Thanks M,

When I read the laws I figured I was in compliance but just wanted some reassurance that my interpretations were correct.

I really only carry/transport as in 1, 3 and 4. I don't ever plan on option 2 but after reading through this thread it got me thinking about this method.

 

[GSG]

Ok I have read through this whole thread. I just want to make sure I am in compliance..LTC-A ALP

1) I can carry my loaded handgun in my pocket in a holster.

2) I can carry an unloaded handgun in a hard sided locked case on my passenger seat.

3) I can carry my unloaded handguns in my soft sided unlocked range bag that is locked in my trunk.

4) I can carry my unloaded rifles in unlocked soft cases that are locked in my trunk.

As M1911 said, you're legal with all of those.

Personally, I'd change #2 to put it the trunk out of site (better to keep it out of site if you are stopped for a traffic violation), but it is not necessary to be within the statute.

In addition to this, it's a good idea for car accidents. Someone rear ended me while I was driving home from the gun store in Mass., and I wound up with all my purchases scattered around the floor & front of the passenger compartment. They were only doing about 35 mph, if a window had broken I might have been picking things up off of the street.

?

If you're suggesting carrying in a holster attached to an animal, I look forward to reading that ruling by the SJC.

 

[Maxspeed]

Thanks guys, like I said I don't ever plan to or ever had carried like #2, but that method came to mind reading through and just wanted to know if it was legal.

 

[ChargingCharlie]

You guys think you have problems? Try transporting firearms in a Smart car! My dad gave me 3 of his rifles to take home one weekend and I felt like I was in a clown car. He only had one case so I wrapped them all up in a blanket like a burrito, wrapped a cable lock around it, hit the road, and hoped I didn't get pulled over. The one good thing about my car? There isn't ANYWHERE in that vehicle that is considered outside of my direct reach

 

[NFD9]

What about transporting a non-large capacity (bolt action) rifle in an unlocked case, in a pickup truck?
Legal, right?
This only pertains to large capacity, correct?

Section 131C.
(c) No person possessing a large capacity rifle or shotgun under a Class A or Class B license issued under section 131 or 131F shall possess the same in a vehicle unless such weapon is unloaded and contained within the locked trunk of such vehicle or in a locked case or other secure container.

 

[M1911]

What about transporting a non-large capacity (bolt action) rifle in an unlocked case, in a pickup truck?
Legal, right?
This only pertains to large capacity, correct?

That is correct. Personally, I'd put it in a locked case, as I would not expect a police officer to understand that quirk in the law or to correctly identify a non-large capacity long gun, but that's just my recommendation.

 

[NFD9]

That is correct. Personally, I'd put it in a locked case, as I would not expect a police officer to understand that quirk in the law or to correctly identify a non-large capacity long gun, but that's just my recommendation.

Thanks for the reply
If I may, I'd like to take this a little further.

Section 131C. (a) No person carrying a loaded firearm under a Class A license issued under section 131 or 131F shall carry the same in a vehicle unless such firearm while carried therein is under the direct control of such person. Whoever violates the provisions of this subsection shall be punished by a fine of $500.

This only pertains to a loaded firearm, correct?

(b) No person carrying a firearm under a Class B license issued under section 131 or 131F shall possess the same in a vehicle unless such weapon is unloaded and contained within the locked trunk of such vehicle or in a locked case or other secure container. Whoever violates the provisions of this subsection shall be punished by a fine of $500.

This only pertains to a class B license holder, correct?

If correct, than a person with a class A license could transport an unloaded handgun in an unlocked case, out of direct control ? right or wrong?

Just to be clear, in no way do I advise any of this. I am just curious.

 

[M1911]

This only pertains to a loaded firearm, correct?

Actually, it pertains to a loaded handgun. The word "firearm" in this part of the law essentially means handgun. According to MA laws, most rifles and shotguns are not "firearms." Really. Which is why you will often see the phrase "firearm, rifle, or shotgun" in the MGL. See MGL CH140 S121 which reads, in part:

“Firearm”, a pistol, revolver or other weapon of any description, loaded or unloaded, from which a shot or bullet can be discharged and of which the length of the barrel or barrels is less than 16 inches or 18 inches in the case of a shotgun as originally manufactured; provided, however, that the term firearm shall not include any weapon that is: (i) constructed in a shape that does not resemble a handgun, short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun including, but not limited to, covert weapons that resemble key-chains, pens, cigarette-lighters or cigarette-packages; or (ii) not detectable as a weapon or potential weapon by x-ray machines commonly used at airports or walk- through metal detectors.

If you are transporting a loaded handgun in your car, it must be under your direct control.

This only pertains to a class B license holder, correct?

If correct, than a person with a class A license could transport an unloaded handgun in an unlocked case, out of direct control ? right or wrong?

This is one of the most poorly written pieces of the MGL. While that is a literal reading of the law, it wouldn't surprise me if it has been interpreted differently by MA courts. My recommendation would be to carry an unloaded handgun in a locked trunk or locked case.

 

[NFD9]

This is one of the most poorly written pieces of the MGL. While that is a literal reading of the law, it wouldn't surprise me if it has been interpreted differently by MA courts. My recommendation would be to carry an unloaded handgun in a locked trunk or locked case.

I agree 100%

Thanks