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Considering military members pay state and federal taxes, as well as all other regulatory fees just like any other citizen does, and their retirement payments are taxed as well, it's a serious stretch to consider it welfare when they're essentially just getting their stolen money back. Hell, I owed more in taxes this past April than I received in G.I. Bill payments for the whole year, and that was after getting money jacked from every paycheck all year, so that benefit was still a net loss for me. Perhaps if military members, and everyone else, could actually keep the money we work for then such incentives wouldn't be necessary.
Well this thread is getting entertaining.
xtry, what are your experiences with the military pay scale? did you think it was fair when you were in?
What does pay scale have to do with anything? How much federal income tax do you pay in a year?
Can you let the adults finish this conversation?
Well this thread is getting entertaining.
xtry, what are your experiences with the military pay scale? did you think it was fair when you were in?
Dude I have no experience in the military and I wasn't the one whining about the pay in this thread. I know that if you volunteer for a position you shouldn't spend the rest of your life bitching that it wasn't what you wanted.
FYI I spent what would have been my military years helping to design the nozzles for the F22 and F135, so spare me the "I don't contribute to the defense of our country" tag line.
Over a million dollars. You?
ehhhhhh not going to bother.
I dont know why people are on my case for. I already explained that I would be ok with it if it came down to it. I just think their are other places to go 1st.
There is, but if the federal.gov went away from percentage retirement plans for ALL employees it would help out tremendously.
One more point, while I'm thinking about this:
As of now, and probably many years ago, it's obvious to anyone that a promised pension is not a 100% sure payoff down the road. All over the country, public employees, private employees, union members, and just about anyone who doesn't have gold buried somewhere, is on notice that their "promised" retirement money is at risk.
Part of selecting a job is understanding the risks. One risk is that your retirement money might not show up.
Some of us worry about that risk, and a few of us worried about it a long time ago. We chose work that allowed us to save our own money and not trust government, pension fund managers, or union bosses (Christ, who trusts these people anyway?).
The irony I mentioned earlier is that the problem created by all of these soon-to-be unfulfilled promises is that the most likely political solution is steady (or, worse, rampant) inflation. And that screws us all, especially those of us with private savings under our own control. Now some of us have planned a little for that too, but that's another topic.
Sorry to bring down the intellectual level of your well-reasoned argument (and I mean that with all sincerety), but my counter would be that the military isn't a corporate suit job.Actually, you are proving my point wonderfully. The initial term is far more lucrative than any subsequent enlistment term under 20 years (assuming you can meet all criteria and progress at an expected pace through rank, etc). So all things being equal, you either stay in for 20 or you pull the ejection handle at the end of the initial term. My point is an increase in pay up front with less on the backend would cause less to pull the ejection handle after 1 term though they won't stay for 20 years either. You will have a more normalized trickle out of people instead of (and I am making these numbers up) 45% bailing after one term, 45% sticking through past 20 years and the other 10% dropping out in the middle. You will have a more even distribution of people leaving the service after x years of service.
ETA: After thinking about this, there is another benefit. Older soldiers who bring work and other life experiences, especially into non-combat technical fields would be more incentivized to join under this proposed system.
Keep in mind, there is this weird curve of benefits for staying in the military right now. There is no greater benefit for staying 10 years but not 20 as the retirement benefits aren't as as good until you hit that 20 yr mark. If you spread that benefit over each year equally, you may see people stick around a little while longer as the opportunity cost of staying is lessoned. And I do think that in order to let people self fund retirement accounts, it would take a significant increase in pay to do it. The pay would look a lot better in comparison to a lot of private sector jobs.
Government provided $ you don't currently work for = welfare. You can call it SS, medicare, food stamps, pensions, etc etc. It's still just money someone is getting paid for not doing anything.
There should be no public retirement, period. Save your own money and plan for your own retirement.
I just re-read my posts in this thread and I want to apologize to Dustoff22 and Skysoldier for coming off as an @hole. We can certainly agree to disagree, but I'm sorry for the way I talked to you guys. You have my respect and gratitude for your service.
Is this the shit they teach you in school today?
i love my job. you ever opened up a machine gun on a peyote?![]()
No, they would never teach personal responsibility in school today. Socialist union workers would never stand for it.
What exactly is wrong with making people earn and save their own money?
Dude, you are saying that I don't deserve money from Social Security, because I don't work for it, like welfare!
I have been paying taxes and social security for over 50 years.....and now you say I don't deserve anything.
You Sir, are an idiot for confusing welfare and food stamps with social security and retirement.
What is wrong is, the government took my money for years that I could have invested, and then they pissed it away.
Now, young pups like you are mad at me, and tell me I don't deserve anything.
So the basic premise of your argument is you deserve the money because gov't it so f'ed up that everyone is getting screwed??
That's a cop out, not a solution to the problem that if you're getting money you're not working for, people who are working are paying for it with their taxes.
If you VOLUNTEER for military service, then that was your choice. Don't bitch about the crap pay. You could have stayed in the private sector.
I feel exactly the same way about all taxpayers.
Sent from a phone, too busy working and paying taxes to post from my PC.
As a matter of fact, yes, that basically is my premise. I'm not bitching about the crap pay*. I'm simply saying that, as I see it, if someone has money they they actually earned through actual work forcibly stolen from them for years ends up getting some of that money back, you can't call that welfare.
Let's say you have a kid that's a complete waste of life, and he steals money from you wallet constantly. He turns 18, moves out, experiences real life, has a change of heart, and decides to repay all the money he stole over the years. Is that repayment welfare? Cuz that's basically what a military pension is, unless we're talking about retired field and general grade officers who rake in significantly more.
You're saying that an individual who actually works for a living and actually contributes productively to society, and who has more than half of his paycheck stolen from him to pay income tax, excise tax, sales tax, usage tax, licensing fees, inspection fees, and all kinds of other crap is a welfare recipient for getting some of all that back? I'd be completely in favor of eliminating all such payments, but the theft has to be eliminated on the front end as well.
As do I, 100%
*I am not currently bitching about the crap pay. But when I was in I bitched about everything. It's a sign of high morale![]()
You don't because that money you gave went to other people as you paid it in. None of the money taken from you is yours. It was taken from you and given to other people as THEIRS. You are not getting money back, you're stealing it from other hard working families. So no, I don't think you or anyone else deserves SS.
To your second bolded point, I thoroughly enjoy how when you were paying money and the government was giving it away to other people in your age group you say they were "pissing it away" yet when you take my family's hard earned tax dollars that I'm paying in you think you DESERVE it. Well sorry to piss in your entitlement filled bowl of socialist cheerios, but YOU DON'T DESERVE ANY MONEY I'VE EARNED.