Driving from MA to OH via NY- FOPA?

[Friday]

I'm planning a trip to see the folks next week, and would like to bring out my pistols to shot with Dad out in OH. Assuming I unload, and lock up (and of course keep out of obvious sight) my guns, am I covered under FOPA? or will they just shoot me on the the side of the road if I get pulled over?

I have a MA LTC-A ALP, and OH requires no permit, except for CCW, which I don't intend on doing while I'm out there.

 

[lord1234]

NYC doesn't recognize FOPA. Is there a way you can avoid that godforsaken shithole?

 

[Friday]

Pennsyltucky? I hate rte 80.

 

[GLOCK.Perfection]

NY doesn't recognize FOPA. Is there a way you can avoid that godforsaken shithole?

since when can they ignore federal law?

 

[lord1234]

Weren't we just discussing states rights? Go into NY and tell them you have a gun in your trunk. I look forward to the news article/legal briefs.

 

[GLOCK.Perfection]

Weren't we just discussing states rights? Go into NY and tell them you have a gun in your trunk. I look forward to the news article/legal briefs.

why would I do that?

 

[lord1234]

why would I do that?

NY doesn't recognize FOPA. If you bring a gun there, and they find out, for ANY reason, expect to get arrested. State sovereignty works both ways. They don't have to recognize good OR bad laws that the federal govt makes.

 

[drgrant]

NY doesn't recognize FOPA. If you bring a gun there, and they find out, for ANY reason, expect to get arrested. State sovereignty works both ways. They don't have to recognize good OR bad laws that the federal govt makes.

This assertion is absurd.

While I agree that the commie states often don't respect FOPA, they're
still ultimately forced to honor it by law. Even that guy that was
transiting newark ended up getting acquitted.

Also, the LE response is gonna vary depending on locality. The response
you would get in NYC or from port authority hacks is going to be different
than what you would encounter in other parts of the state. Some agencies
are "FOPA aware" others are not.

The best way to avoid trouble is to not get into it to begin with.

-Mike

 

[Rob Boudrie]

The best way to avoid trouble is to not get into it to begin with.

It's called "getting lost in a crowd of one".

 

[lord1234]

This assertion is absurd.

While I agree that the commie states often don't respect FOPA, they're
still ultimately forced to honor it by law. Even that guy that was
transiting newark ended up getting acquitted.

Also, the LE response is gonna vary depending on locality. The response
you would get in NYC or from port authority hacks is going to be different
than what you would encounter in other parts of the state. Some agencies
are "FOPA aware" others are not.

The best way to avoid trouble is to not get into it to begin with.

-Mike

I stand corrected, and humbled. That was a bit overboard of me. but yes I was bacsically thinking of the eastern half of the state. I doubt you'd have much issue in say...Albany.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Best to "read between the lines" to understand the dynamic of the responses here.

FOPA is the LAW.

NYC and some other places feel "above the law" and will/have arrested people for FOPA and LEOSA. In other areas, they respect the Fed Law and will let you go on your way without hassle.

So, if "caught" in the wrong place, you can expect to "go for the ride" but you'll "beat the rap". It'll still cost you 5-digits to beat the rap however.

NYPD HQ issued a directive to "detain and confiscate" officers/firearms from visiting LEOs claiming under LEOSA (HR218) until everything could be verified with the officer's home department. A few have been arrested and prosecuted . . . they won, but at great expense and personal loss.

Good luck on your trip, I hope you won't need it.

 

[rcinma]

IANAL - But I have made that I-90 trip too many times to count (I lived in Erie for awhile). Unless you plan on driving 85mph the whole way I can't imagine you will get pulled over. Keep them in a locked container and you should be fine.

 

[dagwag77]

Even that guy that was transiting newark ended up getting acquitted.

I think the "ended up" getting acquitted thing is the problem. What law abiding citizen has the time to sit in a cell while the cops/courts get their heads out of their asses? Let alone the cash to flush down the toilet in legal fees for doing absolutely nothing wrong (unless you got pulled over for some traffic violation in the first place )

 

[skyhawk]

The thing is, you can't avoid NY. Go I-80 and you'll likely transit not just NYS
but NYC . I-90 is your safest bet but they are out clocking quite
frequently (driven that stretch 4 times in last month).

Take Route 17 and you'll likely be dealing with local PD...even worse I think.

Anyways, good advice on the watch your speed, but also avoid getting into any accidents .

 

[GLOCK.Perfection]

even if your speeding, something else has to come into play to have an officer inspecting the contents of your trunk.

 

[drgrant]

I think the "ended up" getting acquitted thing is the problem. What law abiding citizen has the time to sit in a cell while the cops/courts get their heads out of their asses? Let alone the cash to flush down the toilet in legal fees for doing absolutely nothing wrong (unless you got pulled over for some traffic violation in the first place )

FWIW I'm not disputing that NY/NJ are best avoided, but I think it's possible to transit those states by car with a minimum of risk, if you really have to. Keep the guns buttoned up and out of sight, obey the traffic laws, drive straight through the state, and you likely won't have any problems.

I had a friend of mine who used to come up and go down to PA all the time with guns in his car, and he'd get stopped in NJ once in awhile, and it was never a big deal, because he just kept his mouth shut and kept things out of sight.

-Mike

 

[ShadeWPI]

The BATFE has specifically written letters to the NYC police and NYC Mayor informing them that travelers properly transporting firearms through NYC are protected under federal law. This came up specifically because NYPD was arresting people declaring firearms at the Airport Check-In at JFK and Laguadia.

Now here's the rub - just because you are protected under Federal Law doesn't mean you wont get arrested. It also doesn't mean that they wont confiscate your firearm, detain and charge you, it just means that you have an ace up your sleeve in your defense, but you'll likely have to sue the city afterwards to get them to return your firearm.

 

[dagwag77]

just because you are protected under Federal Law doesn't mean you wont get arrested.

You'd think that the first time they effed this whole thing up, they'd learn? How is it they can keep getting away with arresting people who are protected by federal law!

 

[RKBA]

It's complicated, but you're OK to make your trip

The situation in NYS and NYC regarding out-of-state travelers traveling through (or via) with firearms is complicated, confusing and scary - which is just how they like it.

• Yes, NYS and NYC and the Port Authority have taken very hard lines regarding allowing travelers to rely on FOPA and LEOSA for their trips -- chiefs and DAs (presumably at the direction of the politicians) have used restrictive theories of the protections under these laws to harass, imprison and generally wreak mayhem on poor individuals in different circumstances.
• Yes, they have busted people who drove up to NYS and NYC airports from out of state who thought their interstate journeys were protected under FOPA. Yes, some of those people have been arrested at said airports, and No, those people never got their guns back (to my knowledge).
• Yes, they have arrested air travelers who were connecting through LGA/JFK/EWR airports who picked up their firearms cases from the baggage carousel when they missed their connecting flights and had to stay overnight.

HOWEVER, I have not heard of an instance of a traveler "passing through" via private automobile on an uninterrupted journey (and transporting unloaded and locked, in compliance with FOPA) having been harassed (or worse). Doesn't mean it hasn't happened just yesterday or today, but I think we would have found it (and it would have been litigated) by now.

FURTHERMORE, the U.S. Dept. of Justice has weighed in in favor of the FOPA safe harbor on at least some of the abuses mentioned above: http://handgunlaw.us/documents/doj_doc_nyc_air.pdf

To the OP: the bottom line is that your uninterrupted 100% private automobile trip with transport of your unloaded and secured (locked in case and/or trunk) should be protected under the FOPA safe harbor (you can 'lawfully possess and carry' at the destination, right?). People do it every day. Just don't stop off in NYS/NYC, and don't bring more than 4 guns. Travel safely.

For general advice, try the NYS Rifle & Pistol Association website here: http://www.nysrpa.org/nygunlaws.htm (see "Non-residents" down the page)

For the legal cites, try the following:

NYS - more cites in the NY Penal Law than I care to link (http://law.onecle.com/new-york/penal/index.html), but here are a few
- § 265.00 Definitions. {note that "firearm" is a handgun, SBR or SBS, more or less}
- § 265.01 Criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree.
- § 265.02 Criminal possession of a weapon in the third degree.
- § 265.03 Criminal possession of a weapon in the second degree.
- § 265.10 Manufacture, transport, disposition and defacement of weapons and dangerous instruments and appliances.
- § 400.00 Licenses to carry, possess, repair and dispose of firearms. (only if you're having trouble sleeping)

NYC - see the Rules of the City of New York here http://24.97.137.100/nyc/rcny/entered.htm
- go to Title 38 - Police Department
- go to Chapter 16 - Transport or delivery of Weapons
- read Sections 16-01 (Definitions) and 16-02 (Applicability)

If you want to go further into the details, I'd be happy to drone on.

If you want to know about the racist origins of NY's Sullivan Law (the gun control laws), there's some good info here: http://www.gunlawnews.org/sullivan.html

If you're really interested in the nuances of NYC and (to a lesser extent) NYS laws on firearms, try the FAQ/discussion thread on the HKPro forums here http://www.hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78835. It's up to 40 pages at this point, and we talk through all of these issues, plus many issues peculiar to just NYC, on a regular basis.

/hope this helps
/IANAL
/back to packing the moving truck to get the he11 out of this place

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

IANAL - But I have made that I-90 trip too many times to count (I lived in Erie for awhile). Unless you plan on driving 85mph the whole way I can't imagine you will get pulled over. Keep them in a locked container and you should be fine.

Ditto............(except for living in Erie)

 

[Jose]

and don't bring more than 4 guns.

Where does that limit come from?

 

[Jose]

I have a MA LTC-A ALP, and OH requires no permit, except for CCW, which I don't intend on doing while I'm out there.

While you are here in Ohio, be mindful that Ohio law defines a firearm in a vehicle to be loaded if there is ammunition in the magazines or speedloaders, even if the magazines are not in the firearm itself.

So when transporting your firearms in or through Ohio without an Ohio CHL, or a CHL from a state which Ohio recognizes, make sure that all magazines are empty. Otherwise, standard transport requirements will suffice.

 

[RKBA]

I think the limit is actually 2 firearms, rather than 4

and don't bring more than 4 guns

Where does that limit come from?

§ 265.03 Criminal possession of a weapon in the second degree.

A person is guilty of criminal possession of a weapon in the second
degree when:

(1) with intent to use the same unlawfully against another, such
person:

(a) possesses a machine-gun; or
(b) possesses a loaded firearm; or
(c) possesses a disguised gun; or
​

(2) such person possesses five or more firearms.
​

Criminal possession of a weapon in the second degree is a class C
felony.
​

but also see CPW 3:

§ 265.02 Criminal possession of a weapon in the third degree.

A person is guilty of criminal possession of a weapon in the third
degree when:

(1) Such person commits the crime of criminal possession of a weapon
in the fourth degree as defined in subdivision one, two, three or five
of section 265.01, and has been previously convicted of any crime; or

(2) Such person possesses any explosive or incendiary bomb, bombshell,
firearm silencer, machine-gun or any other firearm or weapon simulating
a machine-gun and which is adaptable for such use; or

(3) Such person knowingly possesses a machine-gun, firearm, rifle or
shotgun which has been defaced for the purpose of concealment or
prevention of the detection of a crime or misrepresenting the identity
of such machine-gun, firearm, rifle or shotgun; or

(4) Such person possesses any loaded firearm. Such possession shall
not, except as provided in subdivision one or seven, constitute a
violation of this section if such possession takes place in such
person's home or place of business; or

(5) (i) Such person possesses three or more firearms; or (ii) such
person possesses a firearm and has been previously convicted of a felony
or a class A misdemeanor defined in this chapter within the five years
immediately preceding the commission of the offense and such possession
did not take place in the person's home or place of business; or

(6) Such person knowingly possesses any disguised gun; or

(7) Such person possesses an assault weapon; or

(8) Such person possesses a large capacity ammunition feeding device.
​

Criminal possession of a weapon in the third degree is a class D
felony.
​

 

[Jose]

Good God in Heaven you guys have some f-ed up laws.........

 

[namedpipes]

NY doesn't recognize FOPA. Is there a way you can avoid that godforsaken shithole?

Not without levitating.

You'd think that the first time they effed this whole thing up, they'd learn? How is it they can keep getting away with arresting people who are protected by federal law!

They (NY) are completely aware that their actions are illegal and most arrests / prosecutions they make under these circumstances will be overturned.

They also know most people will not risk the time and $10k - $20 to fight it if they are arrested. So those people will not exercise their rights.

They further know that their illegal actions instill an atmosphere of panic and OMG in us mere citizens, evidenced by this thread.

All the guy wants to do is take a couple of pistols on his vacation to shoot with his dad. He is rightfully trying to figure out how to do so without ruining his life.

New York already won, even if he takes the guns and doesn't get arrested.

I'm planning a trip to see the folks next week, and would like to bring out my pistols to shot with Dad out in OH. Assuming I unload, and lock up (and of course keep out of obvious sight) my guns, am I covered under FOPA? or will they just shoot me on the the side of the road if I get pulled over?

I have a MA LTC-A ALP, and OH requires no permit, except for CCW, which I don't intend on doing while I'm out there.

My advice to you is to lock the unloaded pistols into a case, lock the unloaded mags and speedloaders if any into another case, lock both cases into your suitcase, lock the suitcase into the trunk, have not one single round of ammunition in the car or on you and ask dad to buy the ammo for you when you get there. Gas and eat before you enter NY, drive straight through at the speed limit and without stopping for gas, food, souvenirs or anything else.

(ETA: Print out, read, understand and carry with you the text of FOPA and include a statement with the guns and mags that details HOW you are complying with the federal law)

After you get through NY, breathe deep, relax and enjoy your trip.

 

[RKBA]

They (NY) are completely aware that their actions are illegal and most arrests / prosecutions they make under these circumstances will be overturned.

They also know most people will not risk the time and $10k - $20 to fight it if they are arrested. So those people will not exercise their rights.

They further know that their illegal actions instill an atmosphere of panic and OMG in us mere citizens, evidenced by this thread.

...

New York already won, even if he takes the guns and doesn't get arrested.

Well put namedpipes; I agree 100%.


Since it hasn't been mentioned yet in this thread, it bears noting that the OP could also ship his unloaded handgun(s) to himself, care of his hosts, and ship it/them back to him/herself at the end of his/her trip. A quick search of the forums will produce a few threads where the legalities and mechanics have been discussed previously....

 

[yanici]

I sent an e-mail to the NRA last week about this problem in NY. They never responded. It seems to me that if we could get the NRA to help the victims here and help the victims sue for false arrest, etc. Then eventually NY will see the light and follow Federal guidlines for firearm tranport. WHERE IS THE NRA in this. NY needs to be nudged.

Being from New England this is a big deal to us.

 

[vellnueve]

BATFE has already chewed New York's asses out about this.

I drive through NY and NJ on FOPA several times a year and never think twice about it. Just don't stop there, and don't psych yourself out.

 

[Spanz]

IANAL - But I have made that I-90 trip too many times to count (I lived in Erie for awhile). Unless you plan on driving 85mph the whole way I can't imagine you will get pulled over. Keep them in a locked container and you should be fine.

I would not go one mph over 69 on the NY state thruway! That is, unless you want to take the chance of being pulled over!

 

[Admin]

Weren't we just discussing states rights? Go into NY and tell them you have a gun in your trunk. I look forward to the news article/legal briefs.

I got pulled over in NY with a couple of service rifles and a shit load of ammo, I had no problems.