Emails about Mass. Compliance

[Ripach]

Back in march I started a thread titled Armalite AR-24 (Mass Legal ?) http://northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=17171 My reason was to share the email response I received from Armalite about whether or not they were seeking compliance. Since then I have emailed a few other manufacturers about their firearms and compliance issues and this has got me thinking, If we were to start a mass email campaign toward manufacturers asking about compliance pistols would this move them into action. I figure a few emails says we may sell some if we get certified, whereas hundreds of emails or more says there is decent interest and we are missing out on this market. So basically what I'm looking for with this thread is opinions on whether or not my theories make sense, and if they do should we maybe start a sticky post with a list of people to email about a particular make/model? I also wondered if phone calls may be more effective. Thanks for taking the time to read this I know I'm rambling a bit and appreciate any input you may provide.
-Rick

 

[Mikey]

I would be in, but I would not expect to much from emails although you never know.

I have already emailed both Charter arms and Taurus and neither of them even had the respect to reply.

 

[hessy]

I spoke to Les Baer (the man himself) a few weeks ago and he said that they had had no plans to even try to become MA-compliant. No respect for MA.

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

I spoke to Les Baer (the man himself) a few weeks ago and he said that they had had no plans to even try to become MA-compliant. No respect for MA.

I don't blame him one bit.....I wouldn't do it either. It's not worth the time, aggrivation or money.

 

[Coyote33]

I wrote to Skyy and Kahr. Skyy wrote back that they would consider MA if they heard from DEALERS who are interested.

I don't think they are interested in hearing from INDIVIDUALS. They want a demand to come from MA DEALERS. So, INDIVIDUALS need to ask the DEALERS to ask the MANUFACTURERS to please get their product sold in MA.

Others I'd like to see: Charter, Kahr, Skyy, Kel-Tec, NAA, Rohrbaugh, Browning (Buckmark!), ...

 

[Lynne]

It's worth a try, however, you also need to realize that they've got a good idea of how many gun folks there are in this state. They know the number of licenses went Waaaaaay down compared to pre 1998. I wouldn't hold my breath too long.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Others I'd like to see:
. . . Browning (Buckmark!), ...

Apparently you haven't read the latest EOPS List!

There are 2 Buckmark models listed. That does NOT mean that they meet the AG Regs however, so they may or may not be for sale in MA any time soon.

 

[drgrant]

I spoke to Les Baer (the man himself) a few weeks ago and he said that they had had no plans to even try to become MA-compliant. No respect for MA.

Given what an LB pistol costs, I wouldn't expect him to be too enthusiastic
about having to pay to have someone destroy 5 of his handguns, or whatever
the number is required for MA testing.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

I wrote to Skyy and Kahr. Skyy wrote back that they would consider MA if they heard from DEALERS who are interested.

I don't think they are interested in hearing from INDIVIDUALS. They want a demand to come from MA DEALERS. So, INDIVIDUALS need to ask the DEALERS to ask the MANUFACTURERS to please get their product sold in MA.

Others I'd like to see: Charter, Kahr, Skyy, Kel-Tec, NAA, Rohrbaugh, Browning (Buckmark!), ...

Rohrbaugh = never will happen, given that those pistols are limited
production even to free states... they'd have to tie up a shitload of
inventory and money for destructive testing, for something which is a niche
market to begin with. ($1200 pocket pistols don't exactly fly off the shelves!)

The only one I'd even care about is Kahr... most of their guns have already
been EOPS tested, they just don't meet the dumb AG regs. It would not
be as much work for Kahr to get up to the plate as most of the others.

-Mike

 

[Scrivener]

Given what an LB pistol costs, I wouldn't expect him to be too enthusiastic
about having to pay to have someone destroy 5 of his handguns, or whatever the number is required for MA testing.

If the target pistol exemption ever gets implemented, he wouldn't have to; at least not for his target models.

I spoke to Les Baer (the man himself) a few weeks ago and he said that they had had no plans to even try to become MA-compliant. No respect for MA.

Or Four Seasons, even after all those years of begging and offering to subsidize the testing!

 

[hessy]

The target bill is very mysterious. I e-mailed GOAL whether Baer's guns were going to be allowed (if it finally passes) and got no response. I thought it was about single-action revos and guns like Pardini and the like. I have no interest in that anyway.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Les Baer guns are HIGHLY overrated. I witnessed a case head rupture fracture the frame on one so badly that the mainspring housing fell out - with the retaining pin intact! That just plain should not happen on a steel frame 1911, even with a case head failure. I was present in the room listening to the call on a speaker phone when the owner called Les who told him:

1. This sort of failure is normal for a case head rupture. It it wasn't a Baer gun, you would probably have been hurt.

2. I will offer you $50.00 off full dealer price on a new gun if you buy the $200 premium accuracy job.

3. Any vendor who tells you they would do more is a liar.

Metallurgical analysis of this "forged frame" (chemical, structural and 200x photomicrographic analysis with nital etch) showed material characteristics fully within specifications for 1141 resulphurized hot rolled plate steel with no evidence of forging.

 

[Scrivener]

The target bill is very mysterious. I e-mailed GOAL whether Baer's guns were going to be allowed (if it finally passes) and got no response. I thought it was about single-action revos and guns like Pardini and the like. I have no interest in that anyway.

You obviously were NOT following the history, analysis and extended discussion of this law. A quick review:

1. It was expressly NOT about "single-action revos." This was a great disappointment to the Cowboy Action Shooters.

2. GOAL would have no knowledge of what any given manufacturer will or would do.

3. It WAS originally about Pardinis and those other exotic, megabuck Olympic guns that no manufacturer in its right mind will destroy 5 of AND drop $5k + just for the piddling Mass. market.

4. The only "mystery" about the law is why it has taken so long to be implemented by EOPS. There should be news after the 14th.

This subject was covered in detail - run a search.

 

[Dan Hurley]

I shot a local Texas USPSA match with Dave Skinner, owner of STI. I told him how difficult it is to get an STI in Massachusetts. His response, while friendly and understanding, summed up the general attitude of quite a few handgun manufacturers; "I don't have any sympathy for a state that keeps re-electing Ted Kennedy."

 

[Marcus in the Darkus]

Les Baer guns are HIGHLY overrated. I witnessed a case head rupture fracture the frame on one so badly that the mainspring housing fell out - with the retaining pin intact! That just plain should not happen on a steel frame 1911, even with a case head failure. I was present in the room listening to the call on a speaker phone when the owner called Les who told him:

1. This sort of failure is normal for a case head rupture. It it wasn't a Baer gun, you would probably have been hurt.

2. I will offer you $50.00 off full dealer price on a new gun if you buy the $200 premium accuracy job.

3. Any vendor who tells you they would do more is a liar.

Metallurgical analysis of this "forged frame" (chemical, structural and 200x photomicrographic analysis with nital etch) showed material characteristics fully within specifications for 1141 resulphurized hot rolled plate steel with no evidence of forging.

Way to bring the tech, Rob! So Les Baer is the John Hennessey of the 1911 world?

 

[Scrivener]

I shot a local Texas USPSA match with Dave Skinner, owner of STI. I told him how difficult it is to get an STI in Massachusetts. His response, while friendly and understanding, summed up the general attitude of quite a few handgun manufacturers; "I don't have any sympathy for a state that keeps re-electing Ted Kennedy."

Buy an SVI - a quality gun made by a company that actually supports Mass. gun owners.

 

[hessy]

With SVI you will wait for a long time, pay through the nose and get no answer to phone calls after you get the gun. That's a personal experience. Les Baer makes outstanding, reliable guns and I will keep all mine running till the end of time -well, till my sons take them from my cold dead hands.

 

[Scrivener]

Custom guns take time and cost money - especially when you're buying cutting-edge technology. Most SVI purchasers understand that.

Don't know what the phone call problem was, but I find e-mails more effective anyway. The staff is busy running machines and building guns, not answering phones all day.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

With SVI you will wait for a long time, pay through the nose and get no answer to phone calls after you get the gun. That's a personal experience. Les Baer makes outstanding, reliable guns and I will keep all mine running till the end of time -well, till my sons take them from my cold dead hands.

If you use the on-line RMA system at www.sviguns.com to raise any concern with your gun you will get an answer. The factory uses www.sviguns.com as their home page at the factory, and that page, when viewed from the factory's IP address, contains a HUGE red block with "RMAs needing response" on the home page. It's impossible for the factory to miss; doesn't go away until they reply; and the SVI president will absolutely notice if it "stays red".

As to my Baer comments - although I do some projects for SVI, my comments about the Baer problem are based on direct experience observing how Les treated a customer on the phone, and scientific (and rather expensive) metallurgical analysis. For those not familiar with 1141 hot rolled plate - it's a free machining steel (easy to machine through the addition of sulphur), and not in the league of quality gun steels like 4140 or 4340.

It would not be reasonable for to conclude that all Baers are made of 1141 based on this one sample. For example, the lab testing shows a hardness of B82-B83 (measured on 5 points on the frame), whereas a very reputable big name shop I know has tested other Baer frames and found them to be at about C26. B83 isn't even in the league for reasonable frame hardness; C26 is. Perhaps my friend just got a bad run.

While I will not repeat the rumors as to reason since I have not personally verified them, a check of the American Pistolsmith's Guild website confirms that Les Baer is no longer a member.

 

[Scrivener]

While I will not repeat the rumors as to reason since I have not personally verified them, a check of the American Pistolsmith's Guild website confirms that Les Baer is no longer a member.

And STI's president, Dave Skinner, never was.

SVI's president, Sandy Strayer, was and still is.

 

[hessy]

Why do I care about the Guild? Is Virgil Tripp still a member? He's the best 'smith I've ever known and I never cared if he was a member.
Dave Skinner is a businessman, pure and simple. If MA were a larger market (like CA), he'd go through the approval.
Strayer's is a small (tiny?) niche manufacturer and MA must be his significant market. Dave Williams manages a large shop with output in the 1000-s, he must be a Guild member, Springfield spends lots of money on promos. Is Dave the best pistolsmith?
Les Baer is one of the great pistolsmiths of modern times, no matter if he is a Guild member or not. His frames and slides are forgings, and his are my best guns, period. I don't know what chemical analysis shows, I only have personal experience.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Why do I care about the Guild?
...
Les Baer is one of the great pistolsmiths of modern times, no matter if he is a Guild member or not. His frames and slides are forgings, and his are my best guns, period. I don't know what chemical analysis shows, I only have personal experience.

It's not a question of "not joining the guild" being a bad thing, but why would someone leave?

I have see the chemical and microphotographic analysis concluding that, in at least the case of that one sample, any claim the frame was forged is, simply put, false. On what basis have you concluded that his frames are forged?

 

[hessy]

It's not a question of "not joining the guild" being a bad thing, but why would someone leave?

I have see the chemical and microphotographic analysis concluding that, in at least the case of that one sample, any claim the frame was forged is, simply put, false. On what basis have you concluded that his frames are forged?

Except for the very early and few frames that were cast, all Les Baers are made of forged, alloy steel. The same parts that Rock River guys use. I do not know what "microphotographic analysis" you have seen; probably should take my frames to work to run SEM/EDS. Did you see the analysis of the original frame, or a frame stripped off bluing, etc? Depending on the history of your sample, your analysis can be easily thrown out of the window.
Never was compelled to analyze Les' guns; they just work for me.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Except for the very early and few frames that were cast, all Les Baers are made of forged, alloy steel. The same parts that Rock River guys use. I do not know what "microphotographic analysis" you have seen; probably should take my frames to work to run SEM/EDS. Did you see the analysis of the original frame, or a frame stripped off bluing, etc? Depending on the history of your sample, your analysis can be easily thrown out of the window.
Never was compelled to analyze Les' guns; they just work for me.

I saw the analysis, including the photograph showing the lack for structural deformation of the layers you would see in a forging. I still have the frame (the cut up parts were FA10'ed over to me by the owner who moved to NY state), including the block of plastic which was formed around a piece of steel and them used to obtain a polished surface. The analysis was performed by a metallurgical research laboratory specializing in such examinations.

The reason the frame was sent for analysis was that I was unable to find any reference to a case hear rupture in a 1911 45ACP doing this sort of damage to the frame. What is beyond dispute (at least to me, since I was in the room listening while the call was on a speaker phone) is that Les Baer termes his offer of a $50 discount on a new gun "Generous" and stated that any manufacturer who claimed they would do more for a customer in a similar situation is a "liar".

I do know that the hardness of this frame was distinctly softer than I have had reported from smiths who have examined other Baer frames.