Explaining the deadly force decision: "justifiable homicide."

[MattEvan]

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3197/is_n8_v36/ai_11199334/ "The requirements for homicide to be justifiable include danger of death or grave bodily harm. Where the law says "grave (or great) bodily harm," read crippling injury. That's where we get the statement "endangering life and limb." Not a boo-boo. Not a cut or contusion. And certainly not an insult to pride. The law allows killing force only against killing or crippling threat." Now, do I WAIT for bodily harm? or if the intruder is weilding a weapon and won't run off after seeing my Saiga 12, do I have justifiable cause to put him down? I know damn well I would empty my clip. It also says "fear of death" my take on fear of death will differ from someone elses! he's in my house with my kids and wife, I automatically fear for their safety! How would they interpet the situation from a forensics point of view? the perps down with a gaping wound in his chest, A gun or knife on the floor near him, me with an empty clip and my word that he was coming at me! thanks

 

[MattEvan]

when I wrote this it was nicely layed out and spaced, posted it--and mashed it together!!!

 

[dagwag77]

when I wrote this it was nicely layed out and spaced, posted it--and mashed it together!!!

Edit button?

It will be your story against what theyre looking at on the ground. And you should not share your story until you have a very competent firearms specialized lawyer representing you. I would suspect that if the PD shows up and the suspects loaded illegal gun is in his hand, you're on the right track, if hes got nada, it may be more difficult, its all about the situation, and we can't sit here and go through all the what ifs. One more thing I can tell you is if the PD shows up and you're still holding your weapon with a suspect down on the ground, some of the following things might be a good idea: before PD arrives, holster or secure your weapon. they are trained to recognize non pd members with firearms as a potential threat to their safety. make sure your weapon is safe, you dont want an accident or them to misread the situation. secondly, even though the guy may be making carpet angels in your living room and dead as a doornail, insist you want him arrested for breaking into your house. Everything you say will be documented by the PD in the police report, and this statement will help you, then you want a lawyer. Remember if you say you want him arrested, only the bad guys get arrested, so their reading that in court will.... you get the point.

you (and a competent lawyer) may have to defend why you thought you were in danger of grave bodily injury, and this, while it may be a split second decision, needs to be quite a conscious one.

 

[MattEvan]

That pretty much breaks it down for me, thanks
also I Tried the edit button, says I wasn't authorized

 

[M1911]

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3197/is_n8_v36/ai_11199334/ "The requirements for homicide to be justifiable include danger of death or grave bodily harm. Where the law says "grave (or great) bodily harm," read crippling injury. That's where we get the statement "endangering life and limb." Not a boo-boo. Not a cut or contusion. And certainly not an insult to pride. The law allows killing force only against killing or crippling threat." Now, do I WAIT for bodily harm?

IANAL. This is my understanding.

You must believe yourself, or another innocent, to be in immediate danger of death or grave bodily injury. No, you don't have to wait for said injury to be inflicted. But the threat must be immediate, within seconds. For example, if some moke says "I'm going to go home, get my gun, and come back here and kill you," that is not an immediate threat.

However, if said moke makes a threat and starts to draw a gun, that is an immediate threat of death or grave bodily injury. You don't have to wait for him to shoot.

or if the intruder is weilding a weapon and won't run off after seeing my Saiga 12, do I have justifiable cause to put him down? I know damn well I would empty my clip. It also says "fear of death" my take on fear of death will differ from someone elses! he's in my house with my kids and wife, I automatically fear for their safety

I believe that the law would use the legal standard known as the "reasonable man," which dates back to the 1800s in the UK. Would a reasonable man in the same situation as you were, knowing what you knew at the time, believe themselves to be in immediate danger of death or grave bodily injury?

Some suggest using the AOJ (ability, opportunity, jeopardy) standard to analyze the situation. Does the perp have the ability to cause death or grave bodily injury? Does the perp have the opportunity to cause death or grave bodily injury? Is the perp's behavior putting you in jeopardy?

For example, suppose a man is 3' away from you with a baseball bat. Does he have the ability to cause death or grave bodily injury? Yes, he has a baseball bat. Does he have the opportunity to cause death or grave bodily injury? Yes, he is close enough to hit you. Is his behavior putting you in jeopardy? Well, if you're the catcher at a softball game and he's the batter getting ready to hit the pitch, then no. If he's your neighbor screaming that he's going to kill you, then yes.

Realize as well that in MA (and most other states), if you are outside of your home, you must retreat, if it is safe to do so, before using deadly force. Inside your home, there is no duty to retreat.

How would they interpet the situation from a forensics point of view? the perps down with a gaping wound in his chest, A gun or knife on the floor near him, me with an empty clip and my word that he was coming at me! thanks

There are no absolutes when it comes to self defense law and the authorities will consider the details of each situation at length. If an armed man breaks into your home, you can explain why you thought you were in immediate danger of death or grave bodily injury, and the evidence matches your description of the encounter, then you likely have a good chance of surviving the legal battle.

If the police find an unarmed man dead, apparently headed towards the door carrying your TV, shot in the back, you may have a much more difficult time surviving the legal battle.

If the police find an armed man dead in your house, shot several times in the chest while standing, but also find that he was shot once in the head after he was fallen (a coup de grace), then you might find yourself in very deep kimchi. Firing one round after the threat is over can turn a justified shooting into murder one.

If possible, I strongly suggest that you take Mas Ayoob's LFI-1 course. He discusses these issues in great detail.

 

[M1911]

That pretty much breaks it down for me, thanks.

Also, I tried the edit button, but it said I wasn't authorized .

1) If it says you are not authorized, you might not have been logged in.

2) It is much easier for readers to understand your posts if you use standard punctuation and capitalization. Please take a bit more time when composing your posts. Thanks.

 

[MattEvan]

I was logged in! I can post a reply but as soon as I need to quote someone or edit something it brings me back to the login screen and won't accept my login info.


I did capitalize Saiga 12

also like I said (not trying to sound arrogant), it wasn't originally all mashed together before I posted it which would have made it a bit easier to read!

I appreciate the replies

 

[Horrible]

also like I said (not trying to sound arrogant), it wasn't originally all mashed together before I posted it which would have made it a bit easier to read!

I appreciate the replies

I try to use the preview post button as much as can remember to, as posts don't always communicate the clear message that we intend in the first try. It also helps b/c my spelling is god awful.

Non-the-less, great thread! Thanks for posting.

 

[M1911]

MattEvan: Read the article in this post, and apply the AOJ standard to it. The homeowner was not charged: http://northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=66888

 

[Half Cocked]

It will be your story against what theyre looking at on the ground. And you should not share your story until you have a very competent criminal lawyer representing you.

Fixed it for ya!

No disrespct to any of our fine firearms lawyers but...... this is a different ballgame.

 

[dagwag77]

Fixed it for ya!

No disrespct to any of our fine firearms lawyers but...... this is a different ballgame.

Thanks!! Lets hope we all never have to be in that sort of situation, but I'd still program some lawyers #s in my phone anyway!

 

[bostonasphalt2]

Fixed it for ya!

No disrespct to any of our fine firearms lawyers but...... this is a different ballgame.

personally, I would have one of each on hand for such a case. I would rather pay the money to insure my freedom, than pay half of it and get hung up on some aspect of deadly force that either a firearms attorney or criminal attorney doesn't fully understand.