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Eye & ear protection for indoors?

cockpitbob said:
Old Peltor Tactical-7 Classic, but when doubling up, it almost doesn't matter. Really good muffs have 34dB attenuation. Since dB add, a cheap pair of 20dB muffs and 30dB foamies gives 50dB attenuation which is crazy-good protection.
Click to expand...

I don't think that is accurate. From some of the research I have done on the topic its more like add 5 to the highest dB value. So it you have 34dB muffs and 30dB foam plugs you get 39dB of protection. That's still good protection. However, its also not true that its a straight subtraction of sound. If you are shooting a .223 AR its about 155dB. Wearing 39dB protection does not mean you are reducing your exposure to 116dB. Not sure exactly how the calculation works but it would actually be around 125dB. All things considered we have a feaking loud hobby.

I always double up and wish I was getting the 50dB. My ears are pretty screwed up so I dont shoot as much as I would like.
 
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I also double up on the ear protection. You never know what caliber someone else will be shooting. I was at AFS one time and a dude had a Barrett .50 caliber in there. Mack's brand soft green foam ear plugs and regular, non-electronic, folding Howard Leight earmuffs. Glasses are Tifosi brand. They're associated with cycling and golf....basically Oakley style for 1/3 of the retail price plus I get them at work for wholesale.
 
NES681 said:
when calculating the NRR of wearing plugs and muffs together, it’s actually not a matter of adding the numbers. I believe it’s closer to taking the higher number and adding five. Something to do with logarithms which is something I won’t pretend to understand.

Still worth it because it doesn’t hurt but also somewhat misleading.
Click to expand...

CWulf said:
I don't think that is accurate. From some of the research I have done on the topic its more like add 5 to the highest dB value. So it you have 34dB muffs and 30dB foam plugs you get 39dB of protection. That's still good protection. However, its also not true that its a straight subtraction of sound. If you are shooting a .223 AR its about 155dB. Wearing 39dB protection does not mean you are reducing your exposure to 116dB. Not sure exactly how the calculation works but it would actually be around 125dB. All things considered we have a feaking loud hobby.

I always double up and wish I was getting the 50dB. My ears are pretty screwed up so I dont shoot as much as I would like.
Click to expand...
Interesting. If anyone can post a source I would appreciate it.

I'm certain that in math and "less physical" things like electrical signals, attenuations in dB simply add. Not simply adding might have something to do only with ear related things like hearing protection. Units for sound levels are usually measured in dBA where the "A" means different frequencies are weighted differently according to the human ear's frequency response. It might have something to do with that, or the writer didn't fully know what they were talking about.(?)
 
Waher said:
Um.. noise canceling headphones don't provide any hearing protection. Bose specifically states their products should not be used as hearing protection.
noisyworld.org

Do Noise Cancelling Headphones Protect Your Hearing? - NoisyWorld

This article looks at when and how active noise cancelling headphones can help to protect your hearing and when they are not suitable.
noisyworld.org noisyworld.org
Click to expand...

I generally agree, but if they're cans, they do provide some level hearing protection just by sheer fact they cover the ears (not much, but not zero), but because they weren't designed specifically for hearing protection, they will be easily outclassed by even "dumb" (no electronics) safety headsets by companies like 3M.

The noise cancelling is completely ineffective of this type of SPL and dynamic noise. NC tends to work best on droning (continuous), ambient noises below 1k frequency that do not exceed the output parameters of the NC. Airline rumble and public space chatter being prime examples. Fast, spontaneous noises of this high a SPL such as gunshots can not be sampled effectively.
 
NES681 said:
noisyworld.org

What Is the Noise Reduction Rating (NRR) and How to Use It? - NoisyWorld

Hearing protectors in the U.S. are labeled with the noise reduction rating (NRR). But what is the NRR and how to use it correctly?
noisyworld.org noisyworld.org

This is one link but there are various sources online.

It has more to do with decibels being measured on a logarithmic scale. Adding is kind of like multiplying so there are equations you can use. Its the same reason why If you’re exposed to 100DB and are wearing muffs with 33NRR your new exposure isn’t 67 it would be closer to 87.
Click to expand...
Interesting site. Good info. I found this other site that does that calculation for you. One caveat is that the highest dB level it will accept is 140dB. So its not that useful for calculation protection from gunfire as other than .22LR most calibers are over 150db.

Hearing Protection Calculator

Check hearing protection performance by estimating the sound level at the ear when wearing muffs or ear plugs. Use the NRR, SNR, HML or Octave Band method depending on the noise measurements you have available.
www.noisemeters.com www.noisemeters.com

Also a list of gun dB measurements
 
cathouse01 said:
Is it more like a tension headache or a sinus headache? I know with my .50 BMG I have to use a swimmer’s nose clip or I get a sinus headache from the concussion. If it’s more like a tension headache you could try to switch to a high quality set of ear plugs or electronic ear buds. My Axils are just about as good as most electronic muffs.
Click to expand...
I would say you are correct.

Actually looking into the Axils. My larger electronic Peltors have served their purposes for almost 17 years and are due for a replacement.
 
NES681 said:
It has more to do with decibels being measured on a logarithmic scale. Adding is kind of like multiplying so there are equations you can use. Its the same reason why If you’re exposed to 100DB and are wearing muffs with 33NRR your new exposure isn’t 67 it would be closer to 87.
Click to expand...
Yeah, no. It has to do with things like:
  • NRR is a government-defined average at multiple measurement frequencies, like the Consumer Price Index; expressing it in scalar units of dB is a hack.
  • Composing earmuffs with earplugs isn't fully multiplicative because earplugs do nothing to further protect the sound pathways through the skull near the ear canal.
And OBTW, it looks like a lot of web sites with "helpful" explanations
all reprint the same information, and don't even say where they stole it from.
 
NES681 said:
noisyworld.org

What Is the Noise Reduction Rating (NRR) and How to Use It? - NoisyWorld

Hearing protectors in the U.S. are labeled with the noise reduction rating (NRR). But what is the NRR and how to use it correctly?
noisyworld.org noisyworld.org

This is one link but there are various sources online.

It has more to do with decibels being measured on a logarithmic scale. Adding is kind of like multiplying so there are equations you can use. Its the same reason why If you’re exposed to 100DB and are wearing muffs with 33NRR your new exposure isn’t 67 it would be closer to 87.
Click to expand...
Thanks[thumbsup] This got me to tunnel deeper. I found a somewhat nerdy article that explains it's got nothing to do with math stuff.

The main reason doubling-up only gets you an additional 5dB more is because no matter how much you cover and fill your ears with sound blockers, your skull will carry some amount of sound directly to your inner ear. This was determined with experiments, not from a deeper understanding of math. Here's a chart from the article showing ear plugs, muffs and how much sound bone conduction carries carries into your ear. Basically with theoretically perfect muffs and plugs your attenuation is the Bone Conduction line (40dB and 60dB). You can see between 2000 and 4000Hz bone conduction determines the attenuation, not the plugs+muffs. The only way to get better protection is to cover your whole head in a sound proof helmet.
bergerfigure1.jpg
 
The discussion about how NRR works has been very interesting. But I don't think anyone has mentioned the piece of advice that I think is most important, which is to get the highest NRR hearing protection that you can.

When I buy foam earplugs, I look for ones that are 33 NRR, and they really are thicker and more effective than lower rated plugs. And with muff style protectors, there is a very wide range of ratings available, so looking for the best ones makes even more difference.

When I go to the range now, all of the old guys are mostly deaf. And with the hearing protection available when they were young, they really couldn't have done any better. But with what is available now, we don't all have to be deaf in a few decades.
 
cockpitbob said:
... with theoretically perfect muffs and plugs your attenuation is the Bone Conduction line (40dB and 60dB). ... The only way to get better protection is to cover your whole head in a sound proof helmet.
Click to expand...
l1aSuEA.jpg
 
Shooting outdoors, I can just use a pair of muffs. When I shoot indoors, I double up. Some Surefire ergo plugs and the same green slim muffs that everyone has.
 
pdm said:
Shooting outdoors, I can just use a pair of muffs. When I shoot indoors, I double up. Some Surefire ergo plugs and the same green slim muffs that everyone has.
Click to expand...
Double up indoors especially if they allow rifle/shotgun. I’ve been the a**h*** with a .308 (with a muzzle brake) indoors and I’ve also been stuck next to someone with a 12ga. That’s karma and it’s also why I almost exclusively shoot outdoors now.
 
Tinkermatic said:
Double up indoors especially if they allow rifle/shotgun. I’ve been the a**h*** with a .308 (with a muzzle brake) indoors and I’ve also been stuck next to someone with a 12ga. That’s karma and it’s also why I almost exclusively shoot outdoors now.
Click to expand...
i ended up buying a pair of Walker's Razor and want to double up pretty sure the range im possibly going to join is indoor
 
Tinkermatic said:
Double up indoors especially if they allow rifle/shotgun. I’ve been the a**h*** with a .308 (with a muzzle brake) indoors and I’ve also been stuck next to someone with a 12ga. That’s karma and it’s also why I almost exclusively shoot outdoors now.
Click to expand...
Hahaha. When I've shot indoors with an obnoxious brake I think "deal with it, it's a shooting range" but when I'm next to someone I'll always be kind of annoyed 🤣🤣
 

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