FFL leasing or renting

[rommel]

Not a lot of info about renting or leasing guns. Hypothetically, could a FFL and MA licensed dealer rent or lease a semi auto rifle or AR15 to a friend or family member for say a 99 year lease? If a dealer can lawfully possess a semi auto rifle after 10/23/24 then can they rent or lease that lawfully possessed gun?

 

[milktree]

Not a lot of info about renting or leasing guns. Hypothetically, could a FFL and MA licensed dealer rent or lease a semi auto rifle or AR15 to a friend or family member for say a 99 year lease? If a dealer can lawfully possess a semi auto rifle after 10/23/24 then can they rent or lease that lawfully possessed gun?

Does any dealer ever rent or lease a gun, ever? Have any ever? I think the “rent or lease” language is there to prevent people from getting around the restrictions on sales.

 

[Mesatchornug]

Does any dealer ever rent or lease a gun, ever? Have any ever? I think the “rent or lease” language is there to prevent people from getting around the restrictions on sales.

MFS, while you're on their range...

 

[namedpipes]

Not so fast. A legal mind should weigh in... (not mine. My mind is illegal!)

If a gun lessee commits a crime with the gun, is the lessor in any way legally responsible? Or do they have a stronger case to recover the firearm since they are not involved?

I would imagine such an FFL would eventually have thousands, maybe tens of thousands of firearms on lease. With a modest income each month per firearm that amounts to decent capital $ for any legal fights... plus profit/income of course.

You should do it.

 

[milktree]

MFS, while you're on their range...

Kinda? You don’t rent a bumper car at a carnival. And you can’t take a “rented” gun outside the MFS range.

If you rent anything else (car, jackhammer, camera, party tent, furniture, &c. ) you can take it away and do with it whatever you want as long as you’re willing to pay for damage.

“lease” or “rent” kinda stretches the definition the way MFS does it.

 

[milktree]

There’s no definition of “loan”, “lease”, or “transfer” in §121, and the three are used differently.

Does that mean an LTC holder could lease as many guns as s/he wanted in a year?

Is a lease or loan a transfer? The way the law is written, they’re not the same.

 

[Mesatchornug]

Kinda? You don’t rent a bumper car at a carnival. And you can’t take a “rented” gun outside the MFS range.

If you rent anything else (car, jackhammer, camera, party tent, furniture, &c. ) you can take it away and do with it whatever you want as long as you’re willing to pay for damage.

“lease” or “rent” kinda stretches the definition the way MFS does it.

I hear you, and from their site (bolding my own):

Range members and their guests enjoy free access to any firearm we have.Non-members can rent any of these handguns, rifles, or shotguns for just $10.

When I rent an apartment, I can't bring it elsewhere, and am subject to any number of other restrictions in the agreement I signed. When you rent a car, there are often different agreements if you plan to leave the state, or country.

"This firearm is for use on our range, with our ammo" seems like a believable series of requirements on this kind of rental agreement.

I could also imagine, for example, a duck outfitter renting a shotgun to his clients, and requiring they're used with ammo provided by said outfitter and used only on the days and at the locations of the trip.

 

[KMM696]

Kinda? You don’t rent a bumper car at a carnival. And you can’t take a “rented” gun outside the MFS range.

If you rent anything else (car, jackhammer, camera, party tent, furniture, &c. ) you can take it away and do with it whatever you want as long as you’re willing to pay for damage.

“lease” or “rent” kinda stretches the definition the way MFS does it.

Interesting sophistry. If you rent anything else, you get to take it with you? Server space? An AirBnB?

 

[milktree]

Interesting sophistry. If you rent anything else, you get to take it with you? Server space? An AirBnB?

Sure? But real estate and server space are really different from anything that you can move, and more importantly that you might want to move. In the case of real estate, you’re renting the location as much as the building on it. Same with rack space.

And in the case of server space or a house, you can do (nearly) anything you want with it so long as it doesn’t break the law.

And also, MFS always has an RSO on the range supervising. That’s very different from renting a car or house or excavator.

 

[rommel]

That's what I'm trying to investigate. Does it change anything if you were leasing a gun vs owning it? Right now an AR-15 cannot be purchased in the state. I am assuming that a FFL could purchase one. If so can the FFL lease it and would that change the interpretation of someone possessing it.

 

[namedpipes]

That's what I'm trying to investigate. Does it change anything if you were leasing a gun vs owning it? Right now an AR-15 cannot be purchased in the state. I am assuming that a FFL could purchase one. If so can the FFL lease it and would that change the interpretation of someone possessing it.

Seriously, write ATF and ask. Or just start the FFL application and interview the rep they'll eventually send.

Interview FFLs in other counties or states (a local might not welcome competition).

It's not a bad idea if the legalities work out. But best of all, it would MYSTIFY the gun control crowd (meaning the state legislature). They wouldn't know how to react and would definitely be upset. Worth it for that alone.

 

[Mesatchornug]

That's what I'm trying to investigate. Does it change anything if you were leasing a gun vs owning it? Right now an AR-15 cannot be purchased in the state. I am assuming that a FFL could purchase one. If so can the FFL lease it and would that change the interpretation of someone possessing it.

Does the law not restrict possession? If so, what does it matter who owns it?

 

[KMM696]

Sure? But real estate and server space are really different from anything that you can move, and more importantly that you might want to move. In the case of real estate, you’re renting the location as much as the building on it. Same with rack space.

And in the case of server space or a house, you can do (nearly) anything you want with it so long as it doesn’t break the law.

And also, MFS always has an RSO on the range supervising. That’s very different from renting a car or house or excavator.

Is it. If you rent a car, house, or excavator, you comply with the terms of the rental. If you rent a firearm from MFS, you comply with their rental terms including on site use and employee supervision. I would argue that your bumper car is a rental from the amusement company for the duration of the ride. An implied rental agreement rather than written, but still a rental.

Are you saying the MFS rentals aren't real because the state hasn't told them exactly what they can and can't do with their property? MFSs own literature refers to these as rentals, why would you think they are not?

 

[Mesatchornug]

Similarly, when you go to a ski resort, their rental package is for use at their property. In the summer, they may rent you a mountain bike/board under the same conditions.

I've had apartments that prohibited subletting, firearms, pets, and more. All legal activities.

 

[milktree]

Ok, I see your points.

A better question: does any FFL ever rent or lease guns the way you can rent a car? i.e.: pay for damages, don’t leave the country, but otherwise do whatever you want.

I can’t find anything in law that says they can’t, (from my phone) but I’ve never heard of a shop doing it.

 

[KMM696]

Ok, I see your points.

A better question: does any FFL ever rent or lease guns the way you can rent a car? i.e.: pay for damages, don’t leave the country, but otherwise do whatever you want.

I can’t find anything in law that says they can’t, (from my phone) but I’ve never heard of a shop doing it.

I was thinking about that - my guess is that rentals and leases like that for firearms can most commonly be found in the movie/special effects business, and aren't common anywhere else. Probably just not a workable business model on the retail level.

 

[Mesatchornug]

Ok, I see your points.

A better question: does any FFL ever rent or lease guns the way you can rent a car? i.e.: pay for damages, don’t leave the country, but otherwise do whatever you want.

I can’t find anything in law that says they can’t, (from my phone) but I’ve never heard of a shop doing it.

Haven't heard of any, personally. It seems like a small market, particularly around here. I could see value in states where there are lots of non-resident hunters from far away...

 

[appraiser]

there is no amount of money to make the liability risk worth it to a FFL

The accounting for the lease income and depreciation is not worth the effort.

Sure automobile dealers lease cars, but rarely are they fronting the money and taking the payments. They are almost always a middle man for a bank of the Manufacturers financing arm (Ford Motor Credit for example, GMAC back in the day, etc)

Cripes you can't even pawn a firearm in MA and licensed Pawn Shops are legally precluded by MA law from being a FFL

The issuance and possession of a license to carry firearms shall be subject to the following conditions and restrictions:

• (a) A license shall entitle a holder thereof of a license to purchase, rent, lease, borrow, possess and carry firearms, including large capacity firearms and ammunition therefor. The license shall not entitle a holder thereof to transfer, possess or carry large capacity feeding devices or assault-style firearms unless such transfer, possession or carry is permitted under section 131M.

 

[Rick O'Shea]

Right now an AR-15 cannot be purchased in the state.

Why not buy one private sale,..

 

[rommel]

Why not buy one private sale,..

new from out of state

 

[rommel]

there is no amount of money to make the liability risk worth it to a FFL

The accounting for the lease income and depreciation is not worth the effort.

Sure automobile dealers lease cars, but rarely are they fronting the money and taking the payments. They are almost always a middle man for a bank of the Manufacturers financing arm (Ford Motor Credit for example, GMAC back in the day, etc)

Cripes you can't even pawn a firearm in MA and licensed Pawn Shops are legally precluded by MA law from being a FFL

The issuance and possession of a license to carry firearms shall be subject to the following conditions and restrictions:

• (a) A license shall entitle a holder thereof of a license to purchase, rent, lease, borrow, possess and carry firearms, including large capacity firearms and ammunition therefor. The license shall not entitle a holder thereof to transfer, possess or carry large capacity feeding devices or assault-style firearms unless such transfer, possession or carry is permitted under section 131M.

Maybe pay up front $500-1000 depending on rifle for the lease for a period of 99 years. Car leases have shielded manufacturers and dealerships from liability. This was just a hypothetical thought experiment to circumvent semi-auto rifle restriction.