Gun club noise

Rob Boudrie

Rob Boudrie

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There has been an effort to develop land adjacent to Hopkinton Sportsmens for years. It's finally going to happen, with a 40B mized development - the town actually asked the developer to increase the number of units so it could hit the 10% threshold that will allow them to block future comprehensive permit projects.

The club took the step of having counsel notify the developer/planning board where the club is located and the protection from new noise ordinances under MGL, and that buyers/renters may consider this a material fact.

If your club is facing nearby development, I suggest your board consider similar action. It reduces the chances of "we would never have bought if...." and allows the homeowners to go after the developer if the info is not given prior to purchase.

The agreement says the Hopkinton Sportsmen's Association operates a shoot range nearby and "may generate noise that will be audible from the proposed development," the decision reads. - See more at: http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/article/20150204/NEWS/150208932#sthash.zUWLLYhp.dpuf
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Rob Boudrie said:
There has been an effort to develop land adjacent to Hopkinton Sportsmens for years. It's finally going to happen, with a 40B mized development - the town actually asked the developer to increase the number of units so it could hit the 10% threshold that will allow them to block future comprehensive permit projects.

The club took the step of having counsel notify the developer/planning board where the club is located and the protection from new noise ordinances under MGL, and that buyers/renters may consider this a material fact.

If your club is facing nearby development, I suggest your board consider similar action. It reduces the chances of "we would never have bought if...." and allows the homeowners to go after the developer if the info is not given prior to purchase.
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Will this agreement stop brokers from trying to conceal the fact of the nearby gun club? I hear that realtors try to show the townhouses near Braintree Rifle & Pistol on Sunday mornings to avoid having people hear the range.
 
Bob P said:
No but it makes the guilty of a material misrepresentation if they conceal it.
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One can only hope. Then again:

Prior to the delivery of this instrument of conveyance, the grantee herein has been advised by the grantor that the premises above described have been filled, in whole or in part, to the present grade level thereof with waste products resulting from the manufacturing of chemicals by the grantor at its plant in the City of Niagara Falls, New York, and the grantee assumes all risk and liability incident to the use thereof. It is therefore understood and agreed that, as a part of the consideration for this conveyance and as a condition thereof, no claim, suit, action or demand of any nature whatsoever shall ever be made by the grantee, its successors or assigns, against the grantor, its successors or assigns, for injury to a person or persons, including death resulting therefrom, or loss of or damage to property caused by, in connection with or by reason of the presence of said industrial wastes. It is further agreed as a condition hereof that each subsequent conveyance of the aforesaid lands shall be made subject to the foregoing provisions and conditions.
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didn't get Hooker Chemical off the hook.
 
Bob P said:
No but it makes the guilty of a material misrepresentation if they conceal it.
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That is the entire point of the notification. Brokers in MA are under a legal and ethical obligation to disclose all material facts to buyers, even if the buyer does not ask.

We took away the "we didn't know" or "we hear they are going out of business soon" defense.

didn't get Hooker Chemical off the hook.
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MA has a specific statute that protects gun clubs from being required to meet any noise ordinances that are added after a shooting range has been put into operation. This is what will keep HSA "off the hook" from noise complaints. We wanted to reduce the chances of having people move in who consider this a big negative, and also sharpen the hook on which the brokers can be hung if this is not mentioned.
 
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They put in a development of houses right across from Worcester pistol and rifle a few years ago. There has been huge turnover of those houses since they put them in. They are still building more.
 
Westwood had to deal with this a few years ago as well. Applause to Hopkinton for being proactive.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
There has been an effort to develop land adjacent to Hopkinton Sportsmens for years. It's finally going to happen, with a 40B mized development - the town actually asked the developer to increase the number of units so it could hit the 10% threshold that will allow them to block future comprehensive permit projects.

The club took the step of having counsel notify the developer/planning board where the club is located and the protection from new noise ordinances under MGL, and that buyers/renters may consider this a material fact.

If your club is facing nearby development, I suggest your board consider similar action. It reduces the chances of "we would never have bought if...." and allows the homeowners to go after the developer if the info is not given prior to purchase.
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For some of us, that might be a major selling point.. "You mean I can WALK to the range?" Yes please.
 
joshk1025 said:
Will this agreement stop brokers from trying to conceal the fact of the nearby gun club? I hear that realtors try to show the townhouses near Braintree Rifle & Pistol on Sunday mornings to avoid having people hear the range.
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Bob P said:
No but it makes the guilty of a material misrepresentation if they conceal it.
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Rob Boudrie said:
That is the entire point of the notification. Brokers in MA are under a legal and ethical obligation to disclose all material facts to buyers, even if the buyer does not ask.

We took away the "we didn't know" or "we hear they are going out of business soon" defense.

MA has a specific statute that protects gun clubs from being required to meet any noise ordinances that are added after a shooting range has been put into operation. This is what will keep HSA "off the hook" from noise complaints. We wanted to reduce the chances of having people move in who consider this a big negative, and also sharpen the hook on which the brokers can be hung if this is not mentioned.
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Wish it were this simple. Messina built apartments and condos abutting Braintree R&P property. BR&P's president is an attorney and met with Messina, negotiated that specific mention of the club be put in every deed/sale document (you know, the mountain of paper you are given at closing that NOBODY ever reads). Messina also agreed to pay to re-orient our trap field and other noise mitigation features. It is my understanding that he NEVER paid a penny or did anything wrt BR&P property, reneging on whatever was in those agreements with the club (my info is strictly from club BOD members that was discussed at various meetings). We modified our range rules to no shooting on Sundays until Noon to be "a good neighbor". A few years ago the club received a letter allegedly from Messina (or his RE firm selling units) requesting that we shut down all outdoor shooting early on weekends so that it wouldn't interfere with their showings! That request should tell you a lot about "material misrepresentations"!! The club did refuse that request. I'm certain that potential buyers were not and are not told about the operations of the club, but proving stuff and filing complaints is a royal PITA that almost nobody will bother with.

When we were house-shopping in CT many years ago, we had numerous RE agents mis-represent properties that they showed us, co-mingle funds, etc. Do you think that a bedroom that was burned out and rebuilt or water leaks in the basement might be "material"? A couple of agents we dealt with didn't seem to think so! Another in MA where an agent failed to disclose that the town water supply was polluted with Tri-Chlorethelene and instead of cleaning it up, the town switched to MWRA, plus the polluted wells were within 1/4 mile of the house we were considering. I could have gone after their licenses (basically similar ethics laws there as MA) but never bothered, merely backed out of a deal and left a bad taste in my mouth.

Very recently the police were called and shut down weekday evening skeet/trap shooting at a local club at 6:30PM due to a noise complaint from a moonbat. That club has been shooting under the lights for >40 years. Local PDs, residents, town fathers don't care about the law protecting clubs from noise complaints, they will shut down legal activity and threaten people. Most clubs acquiesce because they falsely think that if they go along complaints will stop and they will be looked upon as "good neighbors"! WRONG!


Bob P said:
Westwood had to deal with this a few years ago as well. Applause to Hopkinton for being proactive.
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I recall the Colonel telling me about problems there very many years ago.


hv55maxx said:
didn't Reading or North Reading's outdoor range get shut down because of noise? still confused on how that happened
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Maynard Rod & Gun had a problem with a new neighborhood built there many years after the club was established. I recall this from members when we were all Millrats at DEC. IIRC it didn't work out real well for the club, they restricted their activities.
 
Chet0729 said:
They put in a development of houses right across from Worcester pistol and rifle a few years ago. There has been huge turnover of those houses since they put them in. They are still building more.
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Yes, and I believe the club should of been more proactive on that. Simply putting a bend in the driveway would cut down noise huge to the development.
 
Mike-Mike said:
Yes, and I believe the club should of been more proactive on that. Simply putting a bend in the driveway would cut down noise huge to the development.
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Unfortunately they don't own the land on either side of the drive way. The driveway sort of acts as a right of way for the club.
 
First, kudos to the club for being pro active. If nothing else it will help them should the neighbors ever decide to make formal complaints.
I'm really amazed at all of this because I'm sure there are agents that either don't know the area they are showing or worse yet they know and aren't willing to tell. I would personally let people know about gun clubs or anything of that nature. It is part of the neighborhood and in my mind is the right thing to do. I've had listings near Minuteman. I told people that they were potentially buying a house near one of the premier trap/skeet clubs in New England. Most were not bothered and if they had any concern i suggested that they come back on a Saturday or Sunday morning to listen for themselves.
Brokers are required to disclose all known defects and they are required to treat a customer or client fairly and honestly.
The agent representing the developer has no obligation to disclose the fact that a gun club is located in close proximity as it's not a defect of any sort. If they are asked 'what's around here?' or anything similar to that then it's a whole new ballgame and if they don't mention the club in my mind that would be a problem. However, today most people have buyer agents. It is up to those agents to do due diligence. If they sell a house to anybody and there's a gun club 'in the neighborhood' then it would rest on their shoulders. As a buyer agent I can't imagine having a client buy a house in a neighborhood with little to zero understanding of the makeup of that neighborhood. I always suggest taking a ride around and speaking to folks at local shops, yard sales or whatever.
 
Wish it were this simple.
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It rarely is.

Consider the case of liability waivers for persons engaging in potentially dangerous activities. Attorneys will typically tell you two things:

1. Waivers are frequently useless
2. Get a waiver

The Dudley, MA club list when trying to use a noise protection complaint because the judge ruled "no proof it was in operation as a gun club prior to the noise law" (or something like that). This was a bitter dispute with a well funded adversary.

The agent representing the developer has no obligation to disclose the fact that a gun club is located in close proximity as it's not a defect of any sort.
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Whether or not it is a "defect" would be subject to debate, as it could materially affect the enjoyability of the property - especially when the seller has been advised of exactly that point. It would also mean that the seller is in the position of lying, rather than being mistaken, if (s)he says anything like "they will be out of business within 6 months".

Local PDs, residents, town fathers don't care about the law protecting clubs from noise complaints, they will shut down legal activity and threaten people.
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Sometimes, they will explain the noise law to people. (I've seen it happen).

Most clubs acquiesce because they falsely think that if they go along complaints will stop and they will be looked upon as "good neighbors"! WRONG!
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Many clubs limit how early one can shoot (Harvard and Hopkinton do this, and Hopkinton has no night shooting except the trap./skeet ranges). When a developer asked Hopkinton about the rules, and hunting, the club sent a letter with the rules .... and explained the noise protection law, and that nothing in the letter constituted an agreement to place any limits on lawful activity at the club (sort of like how any option I get from my employer comes with a letter stating I am not guaranteed employment sufficient to vest that option).

As Len notes any concession can be taken as "Ok, we got some if what we want, back for the rest later" rather than a compromise. Sort of like gun control.

There are no easy solutions and no guarantees. All one can do is lay the best groundwork possible to create the most ammunition for any possible future dispute.
 
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joshk1025 said:
Will this agreement stop brokers from trying to conceal the fact of the nearby gun club? I hear that realtors try to show the townhouses near Braintree Rifle & Pistol on Sunday mornings to avoid having people hear the range.
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They do stuff like this. My friend was shown a house when the nearby train was not running. Coincidence? I think not.
 
Claybreaker! said:
They do stuff like this. My friend was shown a house when the nearby train was not running. Coincidence? I think not.
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I can't tell you how many times I've waited in a house with my clients, after they've seen all that they want to see, so they can hear the train or planes or whatever. Not sure what your friends situation was but if that broker was his buyer agent and he truly believes they did that on purpose then he should've severed ties.


ETA If I'm the sellers' agent and I have a house on a busy street I"m not going to hold an open house during rush hour. On the flip side of that I am going to tell my buyer clients to do a drive by during rush hour so they can see what they're dealing with.
 
Realtor MA said:
I can't tell you how many times I've waited in a house with my clients, after they've seen all that they want to see, so they can hear the train or planes or whatever. Not sure what your friends situation was but if that broker was his buyer agent and he truly believes they did that on purpose then he should've severed ties.


ETA If I'm the sellers' agent and I have a house on a busy street I"m not going to hold an open house during rush hour. On the flip side of that I am going to tell my buyer clients to do a drive by during rush hour so they can see what they're dealing with.
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Sounds like you have ethics, something I've rarely seen in the RE field. I say that as both a potential buyer in CT and MA where I was forced (agent was driving us around) to look at houses that were his/her "favorite" and did NOT meet the criteria that we had laid out, and as a former member of 3 chambers of commerce (2 of the largest in MA, other small town chamber) where I attended the monthly networking events and sat with many agents.

This was why when we bought our house we had given up on agents and were only looking at FSBOs. We bought 40 years ago, used an excellent home inspector (he was actually a Licensed Professional Engineer) and lawyer . . . and we are still friends with the previous owners! We have been guests at their home in CT and they have been guests in our home!
 
Georgetown rod and gun got a visit from the police during Wednesday night trap a few weeks ago. Someone called in gunfire........and the police have to "investigate" so the cop of course went to the club to verify that it was from the club. That club has held Wednesday night trap year round for as long as I can remember.......must be a new homeowner in the vicinity!
 
As President of our Club, I got a call a couple weeks ago from a local realtor that wanted to know when we don't shoot on our outdoor range or trap/skeet fields.
I told her from sunset until 9:00 AM every night. She then asked if we would stop shooting on a particular Sunday morning/afternoon because she was having an open house. My response was "NO! Your potential buyers need to know we are here and that we aren't going anywhere!". She said "I" was making it very difficult for her to sell a $900,000 house.
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Panama Red said:
As President of our Club, I got a call a couple weeks ago from a local realtor that wanted to know when we don't shoot on our outdoor range or trap/skeet fields.
I told her from sunset until 9:00 AM every night. She then asked if we would stop shooting on a particular Sunday morning/afternoon because she was having an open house. My response was "NO! Your potential buyers need to know we are here and that we aren't going anywhere!". She said "I" was making it very difficult for her to sell a $900,000 house.
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Report her!
 
Bob P said:
God I would be so poor if I lived that close to a club. Sigh.
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In the same vein, someone buying a $900K house (assuming they aren't a moonbat) is likely to have considerable "disposable income" and may just get into guns and the gun club over time.

A change in marketing strategy might just pay off.

I said that about Messina and the condos/apartments he built surrounding Braintree R&P. Instead of trying to get us to cut our operating hours, he should try marketing to the 5500 club members as a benefit, perhaps with even a small discount for club members.
 

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