jmjkd said:
Interesting. So which LE academies have you been to and which handgun retention systems have you been trained in?
Or are you just saying they are all crap even though you have zero experience with them?
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Hand gun Retention
- Thread starter jmjkd
- Start date
Interesting. So which LE academies have you been to and which handgun retention systems have you been trained in?
Or are you just saying they are all crap even though you have zero experience with them?
I wouldn't call it zero experience.
Many of my students are trainers at the Academies, Boston PD, Correctional facilities , Springfield, Shirley, Walpole, Middlesex and so fourth, I taught at the FBI Academy in Quantico Virginia, and all the National LE Conferences through out the country.. I have a pretty good handle on what is being taught.
And for the most part, combatives anyway, is pretty lamb and unrealistic.
Many of my students are trainers at the Academies, Boston PD, Correctional facilities , Springfield, Shirley, Walpole, Middlesex and so fourth, I taught at the FBI Academy in Quantico Virginia, and all the National LE Conferences through out the country.. I have a pretty good handle on what is being taught.
And for the most part, combatives anyway, is pretty lamb and unrealistic.
D
Deleted member 12999
The OP
to this? Not sure why you even started the thread. I signed up for the hand to hand combat class thinking that you were a 'mystery sensei' or something that they were going to bring in.
So they offered you a spot and you didn't like it? It's 1/2 classes or a full day class. They are all the same.
Joe Pic scheduled me for Sat, I said sure, what ever you want. Then he got back to me and asked if I would do the course later for the members. Like I said what ever they want. I have known those guys for over 30 years, all great folk and do a lot for the LE community.
That's how that went down. Nope!!! not a mystery Sensei, just and old f**k that's been around since dirt....
D
Deleted member 12999
Joe Pic scheduled me for Sat, I said sure, what ever you want. Then he got back to me and asked if I would do the course later for the members. Like I said what ever they want. I have known those guys for over 30 years, all great folk and do a lot for the LE community.
That's how that went down. Nope!!! not a mystery Sensei, just and old f**k that's been around since dirt....
He must not like you. The conference is Tues, Wed, Thurs....
Bill Nance
Banned
LOL!!! I said I didn't get a good spot...
In other words, you're full of Shit. Thought so.
LOL!!! Nance, what is your problem dude? You have been trying to pick a fight with me from day 1 on this Sub-forum, AND you have not produced one example of a so called qualified instructor.
Bro YOU are the ninja hiding in the shadows and the reason you have not produced one vid of a quality guy is because YOU can't tell the difference between good from bad.. And we don't even have to expose a friend, if you are not to sure now, I want to see if you can identify quality movement, that way I will not have to rip apart the person, just the techniques. You can explain why it is so high quality, and I ( if need be) will explain why it's not...
So put up or shut up...Bro!!!
Guys I don't see this happening, so lets move on.
Bro YOU are the ninja hiding in the shadows and the reason you have not produced one vid of a quality guy is because YOU can't tell the difference between good from bad.. And we don't even have to expose a friend, if you are not to sure now, I want to see if you can identify quality movement, that way I will not have to rip apart the person, just the techniques. You can explain why it is so high quality, and I ( if need be) will explain why it's not...
So put up or shut up...Bro!!!
Guys I don't see this happening, so lets move on.
As we've already told you, handgun retention systems have been developed in law enforcement circles and they simply will not put that information out into the public domain. Very few will even train people who are not in law enforcement.
So you won't find quality videos on YouTube.
As far as I can tell, you have never studied any of the handgun retention systems - systems that people have spent years to develop and which have a track record on the street. And without having any of this knowledge, you proclaim all of it to be wrong and put yourself forward as an expert, as you once again use the forum to try to promote your business.
You simply have zero credibility.
So you won't find quality videos on YouTube.
As far as I can tell, you have never studied any of the handgun retention systems - systems that people have spent years to develop and which have a track record on the street. And without having any of this knowledge, you proclaim all of it to be wrong and put yourself forward as an expert, as you once again use the forum to try to promote your business.
You simply have zero credibility.
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
Then don't participate!!!
OfficerObie59 explained the PIN and Spin. That’s it, the trainers keep it simple, they have to be-cause there is no time. And as LenS mentioned, ( Even for LE training, I went thru this course (3-4 hours) ONCE in the Police Academy (30 yrs ago . . . I can hope it's different now). TTBOMK, it is not "continuous training" and you lose what you learn if you don't continue to train)
It’s not the trainers, they are paid to do what they are told and what they were taught. You get 60 guys going through the Academy, and you get the “One size fits all” KISS, sure the instructors know that there is much more the student can do, and some even mention it….But they can’t have guys try it because someone might get hurt, and if people keep getting hurt, their job is in jeopardy. Same ole.…. They bring in someone like me, a subcontractor and I can show the guys anything I want, because I don’t have to answer to anyone. A specialty class, further knowledge act.
There are cops out here who have taken the retention class and people just told about the Pin & Spin. That’s the standardized method taught all over the states. No Secrets!!!
For those guys who don’t trust anyone’s lip service or don’t believe there is some secret technique and want to try this stuff out and just find out for themself, then check this stuff out.
Then you can tell these guys what's up........From doing it with Aliveness and a resisting opponent..!!!
Get a good pair of jeans & strong belt and duct tape to rap your wrist for safety.( Rap’em tight).
Simulation drill 1..
Let’s use the standardized Pin and Spin move. The guys have already described it above.
Use your Blue gun, If you don't have a training gun but want to see what it is like, you can still try this drill.
As I said earlier there are only a few ways someone can grab, let’s use the worst case scenario, the op-ponent has a strong two handed grip on your hip weapon. You and your buddy go in the back yard, have your buddy get a good strong 2 handed grip on your belt or trainer, where you carry. Then you get a strong grip on his two hands. When your buddy's ready, at any time he can violently shove, pull, twist, or spin you all around the yard or take you to the ground. Try to use the P & S whenever you can. But your opponent says go!!! If you break away just start again.
Do 3, 1-minute rounds to simulate fatigue. Then switch and you grab hold your buddies belt “carry side” and move him around and fight..
Your gun or belt acts like a handle that controls your hip. Why people get f**ed up is because they can’t regain control of their own hip. If I control you hip I control your body. In boxing the hips gener-ate power, in judo they always try to get under the hips for throws and defending throws, Greco Ro-man wrestlers control the hips with double under hooks and body locks, BJJ all about hips.
Gun Retention falls under the category of Clinch
Simulation Drill 2.
This drill is done the same way except you opponent uses a one handed grab , let’s say he is facing you and is holding your gun/belt with his left hand, still with a solid grip, this time your opponent puts a boxing glove in his free hand, and you put in a mouth piece. Drill starts when your opponent starts punching your face…Yes you try the P & S.
This advanced training brings realism to the training and goes beyond what is generically taught.
There are no secrets, only knowledge and this is just a taste.
.
So you know everything there is about LE training across the country based on posts from two people?
![[rolleyes]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/042.gif "Roll Eyes [rolleyes]")
If you think you are an expert in handgun retention, then explain to us which systems you have studied, and which you are certified in as an instructor. Otherwise you are just talking out of your backside.
So you know everything there is about LE training across the country based on posts from two people?
If you think you are an expert in handgun retention, then explain to us which systems you have studied, and which you are certified in as an instructor. Otherwise you are just talking out of your backside.
Bro we are all talking out our backside if we are not face to face competing live through performance, that's what makes me different then you, and what makes a lot of the guys out here different then you. I'm telling folks to save some $$$ and learn for themselves with a buddy, wife, neighbors, and judge and evaluate, and you are telling them they need to learn from some certified person.
I'm saying they can learn these skills, and you are saying only LE personal can show you them, because they are secret..
You want pieces of paper to show a certain way is correct, I say f**k the papers, come try to take away my gun. After 3 rounds of fighting I will know whether I can retain my weapon or not, or what my % was in a certain time period, or how I did with different sized people And you will still have pieces of paper. You keep trying to make it all about me, and I am trying to make it all about the guys that want to learn.
These conversations are not for you bro, these are for the guys who want to test themselves through combative performance with a resisting opponent so they will know the truth, their truth. You are telling them to not even try.
Guys I'm not gonna be there when it hits.
M1911 is not gonna be there.
Only YOU.....Test yourself and find your own truth!!!
Boghog!!! Right on!!! start with a secure weapon at the Get'go... Nice prep...
Bill Nance
Banned
So you know everything there is about LE training across the country based on posts from two people?
If you think you are an expert in handgun retention, then explain to us which systems you have studied, and which you are certified in as an instructor. Otherwise you are just talking out of your backside.
"You must spread some reputation around before giving it to M1911 again"
Bill Nance
Banned
Why anoyone with an ounce of sense takes JMJKD seriously as an instructor defies sense. First of all, lose the beer belly. Second, post some credentials WHICH CAN BE CHECKED here for us to see. Third, stop posting mall-ninja BS.
I've trained with LE (LAPD SWAT among others) military (nominal training) NRA, Gunsite and Frontsight.
You claim to have Blackbelts. Fine, who with and where and how do we contact them?
The idea that everything useful is posted on Youtube is as stupid as it gets. *I* don't post my stuff on youtube. I get paid to teach my stuff and I won't make it available on youtube for free. Why would you assume that an advanced martial arts technique (And yes, this IS advanced, and yes, it IS a martial arts technique) would be posted on-line for free?
Not to mention that having been taught some techniques (which I don't teach other than in bare-bones basics because I don't consider myself qualified) nothing you are saying makes the slightest sense. Christ knows your silly-assed video of two dipshits wrestling around on the ground makes no sense. It's a BS video with no strikes, just for starters.
I've actually drawn my gun on a couple of different occasions. I've actually been in more than a few fistfights. I've actually fought vs. a knife-armed BG.
You demonstrate NOTHING of what I'd expect a serious hand-to-hand instructor (and I know a couple pretty well) to have demonstrated BEFORE he opened his mouth about any credentials to teach a given subject.
You have ZERO credibility here. We consider you a joke.
But by all means keep posting your Mall-Ninja crap. I'm enjoying ridiculing you.
I've trained with LE (LAPD SWAT among others) military (nominal training) NRA, Gunsite and Frontsight.
You claim to have Blackbelts. Fine, who with and where and how do we contact them?
The idea that everything useful is posted on Youtube is as stupid as it gets. *I* don't post my stuff on youtube. I get paid to teach my stuff and I won't make it available on youtube for free. Why would you assume that an advanced martial arts technique (And yes, this IS advanced, and yes, it IS a martial arts technique) would be posted on-line for free?
Not to mention that having been taught some techniques (which I don't teach other than in bare-bones basics because I don't consider myself qualified) nothing you are saying makes the slightest sense. Christ knows your silly-assed video of two dipshits wrestling around on the ground makes no sense. It's a BS video with no strikes, just for starters.
I've actually drawn my gun on a couple of different occasions. I've actually been in more than a few fistfights. I've actually fought vs. a knife-armed BG.
You demonstrate NOTHING of what I'd expect a serious hand-to-hand instructor (and I know a couple pretty well) to have demonstrated BEFORE he opened his mouth about any credentials to teach a given subject.
You have ZERO credibility here. We consider you a joke.
But by all means keep posting your Mall-Ninja crap. I'm enjoying ridiculing you.
You have just showed your true colors nance, the day I would enjoy ridiculing anyone is the day I stopped instructing. You dude have issues, and have to be put in time out. If you play nice, you can play with the other kids after lunch..
Simulation 3
This drill is done the exact same way except now not only can your opponent twist and pull at your weapon and punch your face, but he can now tackle you. You will notice that when you P & S you leave your front leg exposed, that's a great opportunity to tackle, or do the wrestlers single leg take down.
As you can see guys we keep building onto the initial P&S. This is called Progressive Resistance training. This has truth because it's YOU doing it. You are fighting to protect your weapon, You are getting hit in the face and you are getting taken to the ground. And if our little friends nance and his buddy M1911 were there, they would be hit in the face and taken to the ground as well.....Why... Technical knowledge and Attributes.
You will quickly realize that we don't live in a perfect world, that's why the greatest running backs get tackled, and the greatest Boxing Champions get knocked out. If you train this way you will stay humble, because you know some days your game is on and then there are those other days...
this is where self evaluation come into play.
In Simulation 3 we allowed the opponent to tackle you now what? You have to learn about ground fighting, balance, leverage, position, gravity, etc otherwise you will not know how to defend your weapon, you will have no map, or direction.
Let's use self examination and put “me” under the microscope because I have nothing to hide, this is really for you guys but lets use nance's comments as a platform to learn. Ok nance here is when you can come out and play, you wrote
“Christ knows your silly-assed video of two dipshits wrestling around on the ground makes no sense. It's a BS video with no strikes, just for starters.”
Here is that video, now we know for starters that the vid is BS according to nance and his little buddy
so if that was a start what else makes no sense with my performance?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd_TIVsTm5Y
nance school me, I'm waiting.
BTW nance says no one in their right mind would show good technique for free on Utube, REALLY?
This is Rickson Gracie my friend and teacher. He is the greatest BJJ person on the planet. Lets watch him as well. Maybe nance can tell us Rickson's issues as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=larOQpVeU4Y&feature=c-shelf-119
nance your on...;-)
Simulation 3
This drill is done the exact same way except now not only can your opponent twist and pull at your weapon and punch your face, but he can now tackle you. You will notice that when you P & S you leave your front leg exposed, that's a great opportunity to tackle, or do the wrestlers single leg take down.
As you can see guys we keep building onto the initial P&S. This is called Progressive Resistance training. This has truth because it's YOU doing it. You are fighting to protect your weapon, You are getting hit in the face and you are getting taken to the ground. And if our little friends nance and his buddy M1911 were there, they would be hit in the face and taken to the ground as well.....Why... Technical knowledge and Attributes.
You will quickly realize that we don't live in a perfect world, that's why the greatest running backs get tackled, and the greatest Boxing Champions get knocked out. If you train this way you will stay humble, because you know some days your game is on and then there are those other days...
this is where self evaluation come into play.
In Simulation 3 we allowed the opponent to tackle you now what? You have to learn about ground fighting, balance, leverage, position, gravity, etc otherwise you will not know how to defend your weapon, you will have no map, or direction.
Let's use self examination and put “me” under the microscope because I have nothing to hide, this is really for you guys but lets use nance's comments as a platform to learn. Ok nance here is when you can come out and play, you wrote
“Christ knows your silly-assed video of two dipshits wrestling around on the ground makes no sense. It's a BS video with no strikes, just for starters.”
Here is that video, now we know for starters that the vid is BS according to nance and his little buddy
so if that was a start what else makes no sense with my performance?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd_TIVsTm5Y
nance school me, I'm waiting.
BTW nance says no one in their right mind would show good technique for free on Utube, REALLY?
This is Rickson Gracie my friend and teacher. He is the greatest BJJ person on the planet. Lets watch him as well. Maybe nance can tell us Rickson's issues as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=larOQpVeU4Y&feature=c-shelf-119
nance your on...;-)
Who decides what "Credentials" are anyway?
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Choo choooooo! This train has left the tracks (in a funny way)
![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
Bill Nance
Banned
And what you show us in your supposed "challenge" video (I guess) is some guy teaching in a total dojo, total non-real environment.
Where are the unexpected slaps to the face? Where is the speed? Where is the part of getting past the freeze? Where is the actual practical application of an assailant trying to get your gun? Oh, that's right, they aren't there because the few people that DO teach this don't tend to post their shit on youtube for free.
You seem to be the expert here, where are your videos of your advanced ninja techniques? Because NONE of the video of YOU i saw made me do anything other than cry for the idiots who were your students.
I've taken some retention technique training (very informal and very casual with some LE people and with a friend of mine who has TWO blackbelts (And the certificates to show for them) who also happens to carry every day and is in LE.
They certainly look nothing like what you have posted.
They involve for a START, the instructor giving the student some unexpected PAIN. Because that's how an unexpected attack (which means you failed six ways to Sunday on everything else they teach) is going to happen.
If you ACTUALLY have some massive ninja credentials, by all means post them here. I'd love to hear about your years of LE experience (Which are the main issues with retention) dealt with. In meantime, you've addressed not even ONE of the main retention techniques I've ever heard of, and I actually teach a couple of basic ones.
How, precisely, do you teach handgun retention in a fight? Please school us. How do you teach the three secrets in a close-quarters fight?
How do you teach personal safety in a very-close gun encounter?
I'd love to hear this stuff and see all your certificates etc. What you've posted so fart is BS from youtube, showing you to be an overweight idiot coaching other idiots to get their nose broken in training with ZERO practical value for any watcher.
Then the crap you spew on this forum, again without a shred of credibility I would expect from even the most rookie of MA instructors.
You are a joke. I will not even bother to respond until you have answered all of these questions.
WE were not the ones initiating the 5 threads you've started on subjects you clearly had limited, if ANY knowledge about.
We called BS to what was OBVIOUS BS to anyone with any training at all. It's up to you to prove your cred, not for me to post some drivel from Youtube. YOU are the one making the outrageous claim. It's up to you to PROVE IT, not for me to disclaim it.
I can’t believe I just read that!!! Ok nance, I think we are done. Anyone who thinks Rickson Gracie is some guy in a dojo with no speed or practical application is, well??????
Guys, how do you converse with a guy who doesn’t know of Rickson and his family who revolutionized MA, LE, Military training throughout the globe?
I have been with Rickson since 1989, not only is he an unbelievable Martial Artist he is an awesome teacher and friend. If you ever get the chance to train with him or any Gracie …DO IT. His cousin Renzo is also my teacher and you can’t go wrong with him either.
I was expecting to get all beat up on my critique, a technical spanking; never in my wildest dreams did I think nance would attack Rickson, doubting his qualifications, and blatantly Poo pooing him. WOW!!!...
+1…WOW!!!!
Guys, how do you converse with a guy who doesn’t know of Rickson and his family who revolutionized MA, LE, Military training throughout the globe?
I have been with Rickson since 1989, not only is he an unbelievable Martial Artist he is an awesome teacher and friend. If you ever get the chance to train with him or any Gracie …DO IT. His cousin Renzo is also my teacher and you can’t go wrong with him either.
I was expecting to get all beat up on my critique, a technical spanking; never in my wildest dreams did I think nance would attack Rickson, doubting his qualifications, and blatantly Poo pooing him. WOW!!!...
+1…WOW!!!!
Sorry for the letdown guys, very anti-climactic…
Let’s move on.
Simulation Drill 4.
Continue with the drills as stated above, but this time if your oppo-nent takes you to the ground, he can bite you. This may sound messed up, but that’s what people do. So train for it. Now the guy that bits should not bite hard, just lightly pinch to simulate, you will get the message. Now this is not something you train all the time, just every now and then to keep it honest, you give a little nip to keep it real. Use it as a tool for awareness that’s it.
Eventually your opponent can add in anything he wants, kicks, knees, elbows, hair pulling, flips, trips and so on.
Once you have progressed to this level your opponent at times can go for your gun and other times he can just attack and try to beat the snot out of you. You won’t know what’s coming. You may put both hands on your weapon to secure it, only to find he had no intentions of grabbing it and starts pounding on your face. Other times, you may realize this and start protecting your face with blocks and he suddenly decides to go for your gun and you have to adjust again.
So you see the P&S is a starting point, a place to hang your hat so to speak. In reality you will be protecting your sidearm and fighting, and fighting then protecting your sidearm, or…. the P&S will just work and things slow down
There is so much more to this when you add in offense to fight back while trying to protect your weapon, I just shared with you what your opponent can do and keep you aware of it and have you experi-ence it for yourself.
Keep in mind, when you do a P&S if you’re a lefty ( southpaw) you will have your left foot back after the spin, otherwise you will have your right foot back after the spin. So if the right foot is back that means the left foot is forward, if you combine this with a straight punch with your left hand, this to a boxer is a jab. Get a good jab. Go to the YMCA, Boy’s club, local Boxing gym, or if you guys have the gear, start training yourself.
Boxing is something you need to know and you need a great jab.
Don’t put all your eggs in one basket, there is not one almighty
technique to save the day. Test, test, and then test for yourself..
Thanks for the e-mails and support..Stay training.
Let’s move on.
Simulation Drill 4.
Continue with the drills as stated above, but this time if your oppo-nent takes you to the ground, he can bite you. This may sound messed up, but that’s what people do. So train for it. Now the guy that bits should not bite hard, just lightly pinch to simulate, you will get the message. Now this is not something you train all the time, just every now and then to keep it honest, you give a little nip to keep it real. Use it as a tool for awareness that’s it.
Eventually your opponent can add in anything he wants, kicks, knees, elbows, hair pulling, flips, trips and so on.
Once you have progressed to this level your opponent at times can go for your gun and other times he can just attack and try to beat the snot out of you. You won’t know what’s coming. You may put both hands on your weapon to secure it, only to find he had no intentions of grabbing it and starts pounding on your face. Other times, you may realize this and start protecting your face with blocks and he suddenly decides to go for your gun and you have to adjust again.
So you see the P&S is a starting point, a place to hang your hat so to speak. In reality you will be protecting your sidearm and fighting, and fighting then protecting your sidearm, or…. the P&S will just work and things slow down
There is so much more to this when you add in offense to fight back while trying to protect your weapon, I just shared with you what your opponent can do and keep you aware of it and have you experi-ence it for yourself.
Keep in mind, when you do a P&S if you’re a lefty ( southpaw) you will have your left foot back after the spin, otherwise you will have your right foot back after the spin. So if the right foot is back that means the left foot is forward, if you combine this with a straight punch with your left hand, this to a boxer is a jab. Get a good jab. Go to the YMCA, Boy’s club, local Boxing gym, or if you guys have the gear, start training yourself.
Boxing is something you need to know and you need a great jab.
Don’t put all your eggs in one basket, there is not one almighty
technique to save the day. Test, test, and then test for yourself..
Thanks for the e-mails and support..Stay training.
