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Hand gun Retention
- Thread starter jmjkd
- Start date
I'm aware of a couple -- the Lindell method and Insights Training Center method. I'm sure there are many more. The Lindell method is prescriptive -- if the bad guy does this, you do that. The Insights method aims to greatly reduce the number of techniques. I know the Lindell method has been used by police agencies. I'm not sure how widespread the Insights method is.
Check the GOAL training website. I seem to remember that they ran such a course. No idea who teaches it or what they cover. I went thru mine the hard way, part of police academy training. It is INFINITELY tougher with civilian gear (no retention holsters).
Scarecrow
Army Veteran
Retention as in the bad guy tries to get it from your holster? No idea about that, but I would imagine a HARD BLOCK would take care of it.
In the military I was taught that, if the bad guy ambushes you as you enter a room during room clearing and grabs your handgun, you squeeze the trigger. A slide recoiling from a shot is going to make everyone but the most severe masochist let go, and even they will have to let go when their fingers are missing. Given that the first rule of room clearing is "never flag your buddy" and the second is "always know what is behind where your gun is pointing", firing the gun should pose no threat to anyone but the person trying to take it away from you.
In the military I was taught that, if the bad guy ambushes you as you enter a room during room clearing and grabs your handgun, you squeeze the trigger. A slide recoiling from a shot is going to make everyone but the most severe masochist let go, and even they will have to let go when their fingers are missing. Given that the first rule of room clearing is "never flag your buddy" and the second is "always know what is behind where your gun is pointing", firing the gun should pose no threat to anyone but the person trying to take it away from you.
I've taken a few handgun retention classes and it was eye opening just how quickly the 100 lb, 5' tall female instructor could snatch the gun out of my hands. It was gone in an instant.
Scarecrow
Army Veteran
I've never gone through a retention class, but I can say honestly that my handgun during room clearing is in a death grip. If they attached the barrel to a truck, they would drag my skinny ass all over the place before they got it away from me. Again, I have never taken the class, nor had someone try to take it away from me, so I am speaking only from my estimation of my reaction based on how I hold my firearm. It also doesn't hurt that my handgun was leashed to my belt with a steel pig tail, so getting the gun away from me and getting enough room to turn it on me are two entirely different balls of wax, the leash made it so the gun had to be held close in to the body(which is preferential when room clearing, the further out the gun is held, the more opportunity the bad guys have to grab it before you are aware of them around a corner). I'm going to bow out of the convo at this point, as I have no further points to add, and it is all speculation on my part at this point.
Seriously, it doesn't matter. It isn't about strength. It is about leverage, and she proved that. She had the biggest guy in the room hold onto the gun with a death grip. So that everyone could see it happen, she did the technique very, very slowly. She just slowly twisted the gun out his grip as he had a death grip on it. In an actual disarm, the gun is gone very quickly, and it isn't a wrestling match. The technique she taught was Aikodo based. It involved rotating the gun around two axes simultaneously.
Mas Ayoob teaches the Lindell method. He also testifies as an expert witness. If you haven't met Ayoob, he's a little guy. Maybe 5' 5", 130 lbs. He was testifying in a court case about an instance where a person was disarmed. The plaintiff's attorney claimed that couldn't have happened, since the attacker was much bigger than victim. The plaintiff's attorney was a very big and strong guy. He asked Ayoob to try to take a dummy replica away from him, assuming his strength would prevent Ayoob from doing it. There was no surprise, as the attorney new Ayoob would go for the grab. That didn't prevent Ayoob from taking the gun away quickly.
It has been a number of years since I took handgun retention, and I wasn't any kind of expert back then. My knowledge is very rudimentary.
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I Utubed hand gun retention and here are the first four that came up. I will show this to the guys and see what they think. What do you guys think about them?
vid 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wY7pfxV7UTc
vid 2.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-724CG8q6EQ
vid 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qlVan45aC0
vid 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCXGslNmd9E
vid 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wY7pfxV7UTc
vid 2.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-724CG8q6EQ
vid 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qlVan45aC0
vid 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCXGslNmd9E
xtry51
NES Member
Vid1: If I have a one hand firmly on the gun I'm not going to waste time rolling around on the ground with you. I'm going to take my other hand and gouge your eyes out, taking your attention away from the gun.
Vid2: Good until the point he decided to let himself get hit the head/face to get at his knife. Leaving your head open to attack like that is asking to get knocked out, or at least disoriented. I'm not going for the knife in that situation, I'm going right to the face again. The emphasis on keeping the gun in the holster is good because the attacker wants the gun. It will be their main focus and leave them open for attack.
Vids3/4: Good emphasis on using gravity to your advantage and changing heights. The shin rub is very effective, especially if you are wearing boots.
Vid2: Good until the point he decided to let himself get hit the head/face to get at his knife. Leaving your head open to attack like that is asking to get knocked out, or at least disoriented. I'm not going for the knife in that situation, I'm going right to the face again. The emphasis on keeping the gun in the holster is good because the attacker wants the gun. It will be their main focus and leave them open for attack.
Vids3/4: Good emphasis on using gravity to your advantage and changing heights. The shin rub is very effective, especially if you are wearing boots.
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What I like about video 1 is that he is using his off hand to help control the direction of the muzzle. If he absolutely had too, he could even let go of the pistol grip (momentarily) and still have some control of the weapon.
D
Deleted member 12999
I didn't watch the videos, as I don't want to chew up all my mobile data, but I've been a big fan of this method (for a holstered weapon):
IF they put their hands anywhere on the gun, I grab the base of the holster ( I know people are going to meow about putting my hand over the business end, but it's my hand), and immediately crank the holster up 90 degrees perpendicular to my hip. There is a crapton of leverage that hopefully hurts their hand, while at the same time drives any opening mechanisms, as well as the line to draw the gun, straight into my body. It can be done very effectively with one hand, while fighting them off. As for retention techniques for them grabbing my gun out of my hand, I don't have any particular technique other than driving forward into their center-line hard and fast, and not getting into a tug of war. To me, its about bringing my body to the gun instead of the other way around.
IF they put their hands anywhere on the gun, I grab the base of the holster ( I know people are going to meow about putting my hand over the business end, but it's my hand), and immediately crank the holster up 90 degrees perpendicular to my hip. There is a crapton of leverage that hopefully hurts their hand, while at the same time drives any opening mechanisms, as well as the line to draw the gun, straight into my body. It can be done very effectively with one hand, while fighting them off. As for retention techniques for them grabbing my gun out of my hand, I don't have any particular technique other than driving forward into their center-line hard and fast, and not getting into a tug of war. To me, its about bringing my body to the gun instead of the other way around.
Way too complicated for me. Also, turning your gun hip away from an attacker behind you will draw your gun out of your holster, which is not something you want to do if his had is on top of your gun. I was taught to secure his hand with my right hand, rotate hips toward the attacker, while peeling his hand off the gun, and rotating his arm up in a circular motion. You end up with him on his knees in a hand-lock, all with one motion.
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My guys are going to check these vids through out the week during class.. When evaluating the vids, what I am going to ask the guys is to keep a few things in mind.... Basics.
1.Does the technique make sense? Is it mechanically sound, or does it look like it would never work in real time..
2. Are the demonstrators using attributes (athletic qualities) in their movement?
3.Are the demonstrations done in dead patterns or with aliveness.
Check it out yourself.
1.Does the technique make sense? Is it mechanically sound, or does it look like it would never work in real time..
2. Are the demonstrators using attributes (athletic qualities) in their movement?
3.Are the demonstrations done in dead patterns or with aliveness.
Check it out yourself.
I'm not a fan of teaching technique. Videos 2,3, and 4 seem to rely on pulling off a prepackaged technique where all the participants need to be in the right place. I like some of video 1, because they are applying concepts while adhering to principles. For example, The concept is to keep the dangerous end of the gun pointed away from you and at the other guy, the priciples they are applying are; waist rotation, leading foot work, and maintaining two hand contact.
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xtry51
NES Member
Bill Nance
Banned
Retention is about three separate things:
1. Keeping the BG away from being able to get control of the gun
2. Retaining control of your weapon
3. Employing the weapon immediately.
I realize this is all easier said than done.
For the O/C people, I relentlessly stress a retention level 3 holster. NO ONE is going to get that sucker out except you unless you are unconscious. That's just the mechanics of the holster. Now you're in a fist-fight to get the BG far enough away from you that you can deploy and use the weapon. That's a whole other subject. (And one I can use, but can't and don't pretend to teach. There are other people far more qualified than me to teach hand-to-hand combatives).
As for two, it's all about leverage, weapon deployment techniques, etc. For a VERY close range fight, I will shoot as soon as the gun clears leather. This takes some practice, but it was called "intuitive shooting" by the OSS, who used it with great utility during behind-the-lines drops in WW2. There are lots of videos on this, but I would get hands-on-training, not rely on a video.
As for #3, (and numbers 1 and 2 when it comes down to it) frankly it's about a couple of things:
a: Willingness to Kill
b: Getting past the freeze. (Apologies to Rory Miller, but it's his phrase that I use all the time).
If someone tries for my gun, he's GOING to get shot. Period, end of story. That's half mindset, half practical methods of unarmed combat. I vote mindset trumps training, frankly. A defensive mindset will win fights where you LOSE based on plain skill. Attitude and willingness to accept PAIN wins more fights than ninja moves.
Getting past the freeze depends on the type of person you are, the amount of training you've put into surprise situations, etc. Again, this is an area I can't speak to because I don't teach unarmed combatives. However, a martial arts trainer I know and trust confirmed my suspicion that training to get past the freeze without a freeze, involves multiple instances of getting surprised and reacting appropriately. You don't eliminate that freeze, but you do reduce it vastly.
This is a highly advanced subject. I've worked with some LE trainers on weapon retention but wouldn't dream of trying to teach it, certainly not on an internet forum or through a video.
I'm frankly unconcerned about this. I view my chances of having to deal with weapon retention as basically ZERO. Good concealment and weapon skills will keep me from that situation.
If you're worried about this I would be contacting some LE trained highly experienced martial arts instructors for your information. This isn't going to be some ninja move where the BG is just the right distance, etc. By definition it's a surprise move in the middle of a grappling maneuver of some kind.
I wouldn't trust MY life to anyone who doesn't have the credentials of having been there done that, and that means damned near exclusively, LE people.
1. Keeping the BG away from being able to get control of the gun
2. Retaining control of your weapon
3. Employing the weapon immediately.
I realize this is all easier said than done.
For the O/C people, I relentlessly stress a retention level 3 holster. NO ONE is going to get that sucker out except you unless you are unconscious. That's just the mechanics of the holster. Now you're in a fist-fight to get the BG far enough away from you that you can deploy and use the weapon. That's a whole other subject. (And one I can use, but can't and don't pretend to teach. There are other people far more qualified than me to teach hand-to-hand combatives).
As for two, it's all about leverage, weapon deployment techniques, etc. For a VERY close range fight, I will shoot as soon as the gun clears leather. This takes some practice, but it was called "intuitive shooting" by the OSS, who used it with great utility during behind-the-lines drops in WW2. There are lots of videos on this, but I would get hands-on-training, not rely on a video.
As for #3, (and numbers 1 and 2 when it comes down to it) frankly it's about a couple of things:
a: Willingness to Kill
b: Getting past the freeze. (Apologies to Rory Miller, but it's his phrase that I use all the time).
If someone tries for my gun, he's GOING to get shot. Period, end of story. That's half mindset, half practical methods of unarmed combat. I vote mindset trumps training, frankly. A defensive mindset will win fights where you LOSE based on plain skill. Attitude and willingness to accept PAIN wins more fights than ninja moves.
Getting past the freeze depends on the type of person you are, the amount of training you've put into surprise situations, etc. Again, this is an area I can't speak to because I don't teach unarmed combatives. However, a martial arts trainer I know and trust confirmed my suspicion that training to get past the freeze without a freeze, involves multiple instances of getting surprised and reacting appropriately. You don't eliminate that freeze, but you do reduce it vastly.
This is a highly advanced subject. I've worked with some LE trainers on weapon retention but wouldn't dream of trying to teach it, certainly not on an internet forum or through a video.
I'm frankly unconcerned about this. I view my chances of having to deal with weapon retention as basically ZERO. Good concealment and weapon skills will keep me from that situation.
If you're worried about this I would be contacting some LE trained highly experienced martial arts instructors for your information. This isn't going to be some ninja move where the BG is just the right distance, etc. By definition it's a surprise move in the middle of a grappling maneuver of some kind.
I wouldn't trust MY life to anyone who doesn't have the credentials of having been there done that, and that means damned near exclusively, LE people.
So most of the guys had no experience with this subject
Gun retention is mainly taught to LE and not many civilians train or even know much about it. The general consensus was mixed, some thought the vids sucked, and some said it look OK.
Vid one.
Pro's
This vid had aliveness , meaning it was not scripted. The guys were just struggling to control the weapon.
Cons.
The technical knowledge was absent. The struggle was in punching, trapping, and clinch range including going to the ground. Positioning, leverage, balance all absent. Only one tool out of the 12 options was used. The hands to hold on.
The other vids, although they had tactical and technique in mind, the technique can not be verified because the technique was done with a receptive and agreeable partner, ( No Aliveness). In addition attributes, conditioning, timing, fatigue were all missing, there was no FUBAR.
Gun retention is one of those subjects that slips thrrough the cracks, and that just doesn't make sense to me. Who would not want to hold on to their weapon, or at least stop the other guy from getting it?
Research and add some retention training to your game. Make sure the instructor you pick is also a fighter and he understands “Aliveness” and is not a technique freak, or a one trick pony show.
Gun retention is mainly taught to LE and not many civilians train or even know much about it. The general consensus was mixed, some thought the vids sucked, and some said it look OK.
Vid one.
Pro's
This vid had aliveness , meaning it was not scripted. The guys were just struggling to control the weapon.
Cons.
The technical knowledge was absent. The struggle was in punching, trapping, and clinch range including going to the ground. Positioning, leverage, balance all absent. Only one tool out of the 12 options was used. The hands to hold on.
The other vids, although they had tactical and technique in mind, the technique can not be verified because the technique was done with a receptive and agreeable partner, ( No Aliveness). In addition attributes, conditioning, timing, fatigue were all missing, there was no FUBAR.
Gun retention is one of those subjects that slips thrrough the cracks, and that just doesn't make sense to me. Who would not want to hold on to their weapon, or at least stop the other guy from getting it?
Research and add some retention training to your game. Make sure the instructor you pick is also a fighter and he understands “Aliveness” and is not a technique freak, or a one trick pony show.
Nance, You wrote “
“There are lots of videos on this, but I would get hands-on-training, not rely on a video.”
If you would Sir, post “ONE” vid so we all can see just what you consider a qualified LE trained highly experienced martial arts instructor would do, in your opinion. This should be a no brainer for you with everyone you Know.
“There are lots of videos on this, but I would get hands-on-training, not rely on a video.”
If you would Sir, post “ONE” vid so we all can see just what you consider a qualified LE trained highly experienced martial arts instructor would do, in your opinion. This should be a no brainer for you with everyone you Know.
Most LE handgun retention trainers will not post video of their techniques. Most will only train LE. A few will train non-LE, but only if they have passed a background check. Bad guys train to disarm cops, and most LE trainers won't help them by sharing their techniques in an open forum.
OfficerObie59
NES Member
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I was always trained "Hold and spin, hold and spin". Do it right, and you can break the guys arm, if not at least a few fingers.
I think the reason for this is mainly how most people carry in plain clothes versus how police carry openly in a duty holster. More than likely, if the average person is worried about retention, they're rolling around on the ground, and at that point, you just do whatever you can to hold onto your gun. There's little technique to it other than "hold on to the gun for dear life". But when I'm in the middle of a packed crowd only carrying, technique is of great importance if you feel tugging on the holster.
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M1911 is spot-on. They (inmates) do a lot of disarming training IN PRISON! I have a couple of COs who have also confirmed this to me.
Even for LE training, I went thru this course (3-4 hours) ONCE in the Police Academy (30 yrs ago . . . I can hope it's different now). TTBOMK, it is not "continuous training" and you lose what you learn if you don't continue to train!
Even for LE training, I went thru this course (3-4 hours) ONCE in the Police Academy (30 yrs ago . . . I can hope it's different now). TTBOMK, it is not "continuous training" and you lose what you learn if you don't continue to train!
LenS said:
The classes that I took were similar - about four hours IIRC. I took them some years ago and I haven't trained since then. So I am not confident in my ability to perform most of the techniques. There are a few that are simple enough that I think I could still perform them.
The problem with disarming and retention techniques is that they're very difficult to develop unless you use real force on force training. What I've learned from this kind of training with especially my bigger friends (I'm the smallest at 6'0 and 145 lbs) is once they get a hold of it they won't let go until you hurt them badly or knock them out. The key is to keep it in the holster, because if they get it free you can consider yourself shot, so you want to keep your leverage.
If you're able to keep the gun in the holster:
Take the attacker's leverage away. Explosively move your feet into the weaver stance with your shoulders 90 degrees to the attacker, weapon side away. If you can, use anything near by, like a wall, to separate the gun from the attacker. Make sure to defend yourself with your free hand. If you achieve body posture against the attacker and he's still holding on, he's completely given up his leverage. Break his arm for being a moron, or shrink the space between you to peel the hand free and hiptoss him onto his face.
If the gun gets free from the holster:
This is where it gets tricky. You need to control and redirect at the same time, because you were looking the other way and now you have no leverage. Not only do you need to move explosively off the line of attack, you need to get your hands on the gun AND you get your leverage back AND defend yourself.
Nice, pretty disarming techniques that karate teachers show where they get the gun away from you quickly are great, but I assure you, these work in a clean gi, barefoot, on a soft mat, warmed up, with an unloaded gun, and expecting it. These don't work when someone twice your size gets the drop on you and is punching you in the head while he does it.
I also keep an Emerson wave weak side front pocket, and I recommend anyone who carries does the same.
If you're able to keep the gun in the holster:
Take the attacker's leverage away. Explosively move your feet into the weaver stance with your shoulders 90 degrees to the attacker, weapon side away. If you can, use anything near by, like a wall, to separate the gun from the attacker. Make sure to defend yourself with your free hand. If you achieve body posture against the attacker and he's still holding on, he's completely given up his leverage. Break his arm for being a moron, or shrink the space between you to peel the hand free and hiptoss him onto his face.
If the gun gets free from the holster:
This is where it gets tricky. You need to control and redirect at the same time, because you were looking the other way and now you have no leverage. Not only do you need to move explosively off the line of attack, you need to get your hands on the gun AND you get your leverage back AND defend yourself.
Nice, pretty disarming techniques that karate teachers show where they get the gun away from you quickly are great, but I assure you, these work in a clean gi, barefoot, on a soft mat, warmed up, with an unloaded gun, and expecting it. These don't work when someone twice your size gets the drop on you and is punching you in the head while he does it.
I also keep an Emerson wave weak side front pocket, and I recommend anyone who carries does the same.
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D
Deleted member 12999
If anyone wants to play Seagal, make sure you cut trigger guard off training gun. Ask me how I know. Lmao
Also, (Speaking of LE) in another thread, you mentioned you were going to be instructing at the MLEFFIA conference. What class were you teaching again? You aren't listed as instructor or assistant on any class. Including the Edged Weapon Defense class presented by S&W Academy. Just curious, because I will be there.
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OfficerObie59
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What I was always taught was if someone has a grip on your holstered gun, place both your hands on your gun, on top of the hand of the attacker, and push down into the hosster. Then pivot (spin) quickly from left to right, throwing the attacker off balance. On the second or thrid pivot, depending on where the attacker is standing relative to you, he's likely to go flying under his own weight and unable to unholster your gun because he won't be able to pull straight out. If you do it with enough force, you can break a persons forearm, as well as a few fingers, particulalrly if the holster is OWB solid plastic (think Serpa).
This is simply my expieirence and has always seemed to go well in training. I seem to remember it being highly risky of a training injury.
This is simply my expieirence and has always seemed to go well in training. I seem to remember it being highly risky of a training injury.
Yup, seems that they still teach that many years after I took it. Although I was in the R/I Police Academy, due to an appendectomy, I missed two classes and made this up with a class of all FT POs instead. An MBTA Police Officer "made a lasting impression" on my thumb as I tried to disarm him in that class!
![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
That was an excellent class and yes, rather dangerous for the students as well.
Guys there is no secret techniques that can't be shown on a vid. If someone tells you that, their pulling at more then your gun. This is the mystic I talk about, the stuff only masters know or highly qualified secret squirrels practice. Rubbish!
There is only a few ways a guy can take your gun, it's plain and simple.
1. He attacks from one of the 4 directions. Front, back, left or right.
2. He grabs your gun with either his left hand, right hand, or both hands.
3. He uses a prefix, meaning he attacks and strikes before he grabs you gun, or he uses a suffix, meaning he starts attacking and striking you after he grabs your gun. Or does both...a fight!!!
You won't know!!!
If you can't fight for shit when you don't have a gun, then you can't fight for shit when you do have a gun. It's that simple!!!
The stuff they teach LE is mostly crap, that's f***ed up and wrong. Only in the past 5 years have Academies been opening up to new ideas. Like the guys said, 4 hour crash course that’s about it and I think retention is basically taught the same as before.
.
Liabilities, Workmen’s comp, and budget cuts have killed officer training.
Which brings up the question on instructing at the MLEFFIA , Nope, I came in late and didn't get a good spot, so Joe Pic asked me if I would be willing to do the program later this year. That’s fine I did many before, what ever they want I try to do for those guys.
Retention training
What needs to be done after they learn say ( pin sand spin) is put the guys in gear and at any point anyone in class, at any time could attack full speed, punching, headbutting, kneeing, picking you up and getting slammed down to the ground, and at any time they could go for the gun. You would be absolutely floored at what you would see..
You won’t see this training because the Dept doesn’t want to pay comp time if the officer’s keep getting hurt, or don’t get hurt and say they did during full out training.
That’s why the training sucks, liabilities and money first, great training to keep officers safe, NOPE!!!.
.
There is only a few ways a guy can take your gun, it's plain and simple.
1. He attacks from one of the 4 directions. Front, back, left or right.
2. He grabs your gun with either his left hand, right hand, or both hands.
3. He uses a prefix, meaning he attacks and strikes before he grabs you gun, or he uses a suffix, meaning he starts attacking and striking you after he grabs your gun. Or does both...a fight!!!
You won't know!!!
If you can't fight for shit when you don't have a gun, then you can't fight for shit when you do have a gun. It's that simple!!!
The stuff they teach LE is mostly crap, that's f***ed up and wrong. Only in the past 5 years have Academies been opening up to new ideas. Like the guys said, 4 hour crash course that’s about it and I think retention is basically taught the same as before.
.
Liabilities, Workmen’s comp, and budget cuts have killed officer training.
Which brings up the question on instructing at the MLEFFIA , Nope, I came in late and didn't get a good spot, so Joe Pic asked me if I would be willing to do the program later this year. That’s fine I did many before, what ever they want I try to do for those guys.
Retention training
What needs to be done after they learn say ( pin sand spin) is put the guys in gear and at any point anyone in class, at any time could attack full speed, punching, headbutting, kneeing, picking you up and getting slammed down to the ground, and at any time they could go for the gun. You would be absolutely floored at what you would see..
You won’t see this training because the Dept doesn’t want to pay comp time if the officer’s keep getting hurt, or don’t get hurt and say they did during full out training.
That’s why the training sucks, liabilities and money first, great training to keep officers safe, NOPE!!!.
.
