handgun "accidental" discharge experience?

[MensetFAL]

A new handgun is on my short list (next to a shotgun) now that I have my MA LTC. I know choice of carry weapon is an individual preference. One aspect I am mulling over is a revolver vs semi-auto. In particular, the safety side. I am leaning toward a S&W in 9mm as variation in my toolbox as I already have a 686 revolver (which is on the large side for carry purposes).

I know a lot of "safety" really boils down to the individual handler. However, there have been many incidences in the media of semi-auto handguns inadvertently discharging - the KY legislator unloading her handgun at her office; an officer shooting himself in the leg while giving a firearm safety lecture; the recent firearms instructor who shot his hand while "unloading" his handgun; etc. I cannot recall any similar incidents involving revolvers.

I'd like to hear others' personal experiences on the topic. My own experiences are rather limited.

 

[BattleSnail]

There's no such thing as an accidental discharge. Only negligent discharges. And they're impossible if you keep your booger hook off the bang switch. Again...keep your god damned finger off the trigger. If you do this I guarantee your gun won't "go off".

 

[fbirdquik6]

There's no such thing as an accidental discharge. Only negligent discharges. And they're impossible if you keep your booger hook off the bang switch. Again...keep your god damned finger off the trigger. If you do this I guarantee your gun won't "go off".

And use a proper holster

 

[MaynardDad]

You should observe all the same safety rules with equal diligence, regardless of whether you have a revolver or an autoloader.

In some ways, the revolver is simpler to operate (fewer controls, fewer possible configurations/states). That could mean that it's easier for some people to learn safe handling with a revolver.

It's also possible that a long, heavy trigger pull prevents some NDs because you might notice your mistake before it goes bang. But if you compensate for this by allowing yourself to be unsafe, then you are worse off.

 

[dgrafton]

There's no such thing as an accidental discharge. Only negligent discharges. And they're impossible if you keep your booger hook off the bang switch. Again...keep your god damned finger off the trigger. If you do this I guarantee your gun won't "go off".

Is a mechanical failure when the gun goes into battery a negligent discharge?

I had a bolt action .22 touch off when closing the bolt. Rifle was pointed downrange at my club, so no worries.

What about loading your carry gun at home?Even pointed in the safest direction possible, still not the same as pointed at a backstop at a range.

 

[MaynardDad]

What about loading your carry gun at home?Even pointed in the safest direction possible, still not the same as pointed at a backstop at a range.

It's eminently possible to find a safe backstop at home. Some options that are even available to people in apartments are (1) a case of copy paper, (2) the end of a bookcase packed with books, and (3) a five-gallon bucket of sand in the closet. The first two options work for dry-firing as well (although I prefer the foundation in my basement). If you ND you'll hurt your ears, but at least you don't have to worry about killing your family or neighbors.

Hotel rooms are a little harder, unless you want to travel with a case of copy paper. Best to keep it loaded and holstered.

 

[dgrafton]

I don't have a problem with a safe direction, my house backs up to woodlands.

I have a problem with the blank statement that there is no such thing as an accidental discharge.

 

[MaynardDad]

I have a problem with the blank statement that there is no such thing as an accidental discharge.

I don't disagree with you. There is equipment failure, and also some human errors that can cause guns to discharge but are not negligent. I still think it's culturally important to use the term "negligent discharge" when applicable (i.e., when the person was disregarding the safety rules or otherwise not taking reasonable care). It helps combat the "shit happens" mentality.

As long as you follow them, the redundancy that is built in to good sets of safety rules usually do a good job at preventing and minimizing injuries from unintended discharges. A safe backstop when loading, dry firing, and cleaning is a good example. Most injuries happen when cleaning or playing with the gun, and most of these injuries are preventable.

 

[atilla]

if the problem was with the operator of the firearm, it's negligence. the operator was negligent in the fact that they did not follow the rules of gun safety, or they just plain ****ed up out of stupidity/ignorance. either way, it's negligent.

follow the four rules, keep your booger hook off the bang switch, and use proper equipment.

done.

 

[bill o]

If a primer spontaneously ignites, is that an AD or an ND?

 

[M1911]

I know a lot of "safety" really boils down to the individual handler. However, there have been many incidences in the media of semi-auto handguns inadvertently discharging - the KY legislator unloading her handgun at her office; an officer shooting himself in the leg while giving a firearm safety lecture; the recent firearms instructor who shot his hand while "unloading" his handgun; etc. I cannot recall any similar incidents involving revolvers.

1) You need good training. Take defensive training well beyond the NRA Basic Pistol. I try to take a training class every year or so as way of ensuring that I haven't gotten into any bad habits.

2) Safety depends upon you and your discipline. Whenever you handle a firearm, always be in the present. Turn off the running conversation in your head. Stop thinking about work, family, all the chores you need to do, etc. Focus on being here and now. Think about what you are doing.

3) The morons who shot themselves while teaching are just that -- morons. Your leg (or your hand) is not a safe direction. It isn't hard to tell that a semi-automatic handgun has been cleared -- remove the magazine, lock the slide open, visually and manually inspect the chamber. It is quite easy to unload and field strip a semi-automatic handgun without pointing it at yourself or someone else -- all it takes is a little discipline.

Do revolvers have some advantages? Sure. They also have some disadvantages. If you are more comfortable with a revolver, that's fine. I've carried a K-frame revolver and felt adequately armed.

 

[BattleSnail]

Is a mechanical failure when the gun goes into battery a negligent discharge?

I had a bolt action .22 touch off when closing the bolt. Rifle was pointed downrange at my club, so no worries.

I suppose there's and exception to every rule.

What about loading your carry gun at home?Even pointed in the safest direction possible, still not the same as pointed at a backstop at a range.

none of my guns have ever discharged when being loaded at home. But yeah, unless you have a berm in your house I guess everyone breaks the "alway point in safe direction" rule...

 

[DarrenL]

Again...keep your god damned finger off the trigger. If you do this I guarantee your gun won't "go off".

Every example cited by OP, and probably 99.99% of events that make the news are because they violated more than one the four safety rules at the same time. Specifically, all of them. In almost all modern semi-autos, they have a firing pin block, meaning there must be two (or more) simultaneous mechanical failures for a gun to "go off". It's just not going to happen.

Whenever you read "the gun went off", or "the gun discharged", or "it went off while being cleaned" it means "the owner screwed up and pulled the trigger with a loaded weapon, but its better for police reports and insurance if we pretend otherwise"

 

[TBalls]

I know a lot of "safety" really boils down to the individual handler. However, there have been many incidences in the media of semi-auto handguns inadvertently discharging

IMO it pretty much ALL boils down to the handler. If the type of firearm influences how safe you are you're doing it wrong.

It's eminently possible to find a safe backstop at home. Some options that are even available to people in apartments are (1) a case of copy paper, (2) the end of a bookcase packed with books, and (3) a five-gallon bucket of sand in the closet. The first two options work for dry-firing as well (although I prefer the foundation in my basement). If you ND you'll hurt your ears, but at least you don't have to worry about killing your family or neighbors.

Hotel rooms are a little harder, unless you want to travel with a case of copy paper. Best to keep it loaded and holstered.

Nailed it.

 

[dgrafton]

I suppose there's and exception to every rule.



none of my guns have ever discharged when being loaded at home. But yeah, unless you have a berm in your house I guess everyone breaks the "alway point in safe direction" rule...

I have only had it happen that one time, and that was 25 years ago. I still remember it clear as can be. I can't even estimate how many thousands of rounds I have shot since.

 

[45collector]

I've told the story here a few times of the Jennings .22 I bought at the Marlboro gun show over 12 years ago. Long story short, it was my fault for not carefully inspecting the guts of the gun before attempting to fire it, and things could have gone horribly wrong had I not at least followed proper safety habits at the shooting range the next day.

Negligent discharges are pretty much always the user's fault. And I should have known better even in those early LTC years so I blame myself that the little piece of shit handgun fired without even putting my finger inside the trigger guard. [sad2]

 

[Aaron[MA]]

Every example cited by OP, and probably 99.99% of events that make the news are because they violated more than one the four safety rules at the same time. Specifically, all of them. In almost all modern semi-autos, they have a firing pin block, meaning there must be two (or more) simultaneous mechanical failures for a gun to "go off". It's just not going to happen.

Whenever you read "the gun went off", or "the gun discharged", or "it went off while being cleaned" it means "the owner screwed up and pulled the trigger with a loaded weapon, but its better for police reports and insurance if we pretend otherwise"

This.

I can't confirm if its simply a case of media ignorance or further evidence of their bias against firearms. I believe its the latter, and they have succeeded in convincing a lot of uneducated/ignorant readers that a gun can just "go off" in a effort to further the gun control agenda.

The gun "goes off" only when you pull the trigger - mechanical malfunctions (which are exceedingly rare) aside..

 

[MikeInMA]

... I cannot recall any similar incidents involving revolvers.

I'd like to hear others' personal experiences on the topic. My own experiences are rather limited.

That is because revolvers have been out of widespread use by police for like what 20 years? Unless you are an older person, I'm not surprised you haven't heard of it. I'm sure it happened for the same reasons it still does. Why else would Barney Fife keep his bullets in his pocket?

 

[whacko]

A new handgun is on my short list (next to a shotgun) now that I have my MA LTC. I know choice of carry weapon is an individual preference. One aspect I am mulling over is a revolver vs semi-auto. In particular, the safety side. I am leaning toward a S&W in 9mm as variation in my toolbox as I already have a 686 revolver (which is on the large side for carry purposes).

I know a lot of "safety" really boils down to the individual handler. However, there have been many incidences in the media of semi-auto handguns inadvertently discharging - the KY legislator unloading her handgun at her office; an officer shooting himself in the leg while giving a firearm safety lecture; the recent firearms instructor who shot his hand while "unloading" his handgun; etc. I cannot recall any similar incidents involving revolvers.

I'd like to hear others' personal experiences on the topic. My own experiences are rather limited.

Others have already said it......but it bears repeating and repeating and repeating.........guns dont accidently or "inadvertantly" go off. The individual handling the fire arm "f*cks up" and they go off negligantly. It is that simple. Even the super odd rare mechanical failure.......gun owners should take responsibility for the equipment they utilize......if you don't inspect your automobile from time to time and your brakes lines are rotted........and fail.....and you injur someone in an accident due to the brake failure are you responsible?

Now......on to your quesiton. Only you can know for sure what you want in a handgun.......that being said......with a revolver.....asside from dry firing and forgetting to clear it first todays modern revolvers are pretty damn hard to "f*ck up". No way in hell you can not know that hammer is coming back when holstering it unless you are a total ass clown. But even with that.....don't get "cocky" with a revolver......stick with the proven safety procedures and you'll be G2G

 

[bill o]

My NRA instructor counselor AD'd a .357 in the police station basement back in the day. It happens with revolvers too.

 

[whacko]

My NRA instructor counselor AD'd a .357 in the police station basement back in the day. It happens with revolvers too.

Some ears were ringing that day I bet

 

[MensetFAL]

I appreciate the safety comments and understand that it's likely 99% handler error. Given the couple of media instances where the person claims it happened while clearing the handgun, it makes me wonder if there is an inherent "sensitivity" for errors with semi-autos in the clearing process. Effectively, some variation of pulling the slide causing an unintended trigger pull if one's grip slips or if a slip partway into the clear causing a discharge. "Design" should make these non-issues if handled properly. But reality has its own rules, thus I am very interested is observations of people messing up. The answer may be that these are "once in a career" occurrences.

On a side note, there are other instances of some firearms not requiring a trigger pull. Read about some people who have learned how to "bump fire" their semi-auto rifles thereby making them behave like full auto. This is one example of reality not being fully compliant with design.

 

[whacko]

I appreciate the safety comments and understand that it's likely 99% handler error. Given the couple of media instances where the person claims it happened while clearing the handgun, it makes me wonder if there is an inherent "sensitivity" for errors with semi-autos in the clearing process. Effectively, some variation of pulling the slide causing an unintended trigger pull if one's grip slips or if a slip partway into the clear causing a discharge. "Design" should make these non-issues if handled properly. But reality has its own rules, thus I am very interested is observations of people messing up. The answer may be that these are "once in a career" occurrences.

On a side note, there are other instances of some firearms not requiring a trigger pull. Read about some people who have learned how to "bump fire" their semi-auto rifles thereby making them behave like full auto. This is one example of reality not being fully compliant with design.

Um....with bump fire the trigger is being pulled........not in the conventional "pull" but the trigger is moved rearward like any other time the rifle is fired
Think you need to read more:

This process involves holding the foregrip with the non-trigger hand, releasing the grip on the firing hand (leaving the trigger finger in its normal position in front of the trigger), pushing the rifle forward in order to apply pressure on the trigger finger from the trigger, and keeping the trigger finger stationary. During a shot, the firearm will recoil considerably ("bump" back) and the trigger will reset itself; then the non-trigger hand would naturally force the firearm back to the original position, pressing the trigger against a stationary finger again, thereby firing successive shots.

 

[dgrafton]

I forgot, but I just had to replace the trigger in my M&P 15-22. Shooting a couple weeks ago and I thought it doubled. When I checked it out, the disconnector was not holding the hammer on the reset.

This is a factory trigger on the Performance Center 15-22 with about 3500 rounds through the gun.

Rather than deal with S&W, I put a RRA two stage varmint trigger in the gun.

Took it out Saturday to check operation, and all was good.

 

[dgrafton]

Are you serious? Not all mechanical failures are due to age and neglect.

The individual handling the fire arm "f*cks up" and they go off negligantly. It is that simple. Even the super odd rare mechanical failure.......gun owners should take responsibility for the equipment they utilize......if you don't inspect your automobile from time to time and your brakes lines are rotted........and fail.....and you injur someone in an accident due to the brake failure are you responsible?

 

[goodlife30]

It's negligent discharge. Call it what it is. Accidental discharge shifts blame to the firearm. It's the user

If its the firearms it's mechanical failure.

 

[MaynardDad]

I think there is a useful distinction to be made between two kinds of unintentional discharges. I think "negligent" and "accidental" are the wrong words, but I'm not sure what to call them. Perhaps "forgivable sins" and "unforgivable sins"? Let's try that.

"Forgivable sins" are the ones where your NES buddies will say that "it can happen to the best of us—glad you're ok." Putting your finger on the trigger when you're not supposed to is in that category. Even very well-trained people do it frequently when they're under stress. And I know that I can do it too: I was once caught by an instructor with my finger inside the trigger guard while reloading. I was shameful as a scolded puppy and promised myself to be more careful, but I know that it can happen again. Failing to check that the gun is unloaded is another such "forgivable sin." It helps to be careful and pay attention. It helps to work it into your routine. But good people still forget sometimes. Failure of well-maintained guns, though rare, also falls in to this category.

"Unforgivable sins" are the ones where NESers say that "he was a moron and deserved to die—and he was probably a cop." The typical example is the guy who points his gun at his friend or dog to dry fire. Once you have identified a few safe directions in your house, you know to only point the gun there when you dry fire. Pointing it somewhere else is not an honest mistake that just happens. If you point it somewhere else, you're not just forgetting a step in your routine: you are doing something you have never done before and promised yourself never to do. You have to willfully ignore the safety rule you set for yourself.

The trick, of course, is to organize your gun handling so that a sin of the first type always has to be combined with a sin of the second kind in order for someone to get hurt. Being really strict about safe direction goes a long way. Insist on a safe backstop when loading and unloading, even though you're trying really hard to keep your finger off the trigger. Insist on a safe backstop when you dry fire, even though you're trying really hard to remember to check that the gun is unloaded, and even though it is fun to wander around the house and shoot all the light switches and mirrors.

One situation that I don't have a good solution for is holstering. Some NDs happen when the trigger gets caugh in clothing, folded in holster material, or a finger while holstering. Sure, you can try to be careful to keep clothing out of the way, inspect your holster, move your leg the other way, and so on, but these are all things that it's possible to screw up without being a moron that deserves to die. Always removing the holster before holstering isn't practical when practicing. (But if you can leave the gun loaded holstered on days you are not practicing, you reduce the exposure. If the gun stays holstered from the safe to the belt and back, not much can go wrong.)

 

[92G]

I think there is a useful distinction to be made between two kinds of unintentional discharges. I think "negligent" and "accidental" are the wrong words, but I'm not sure what to call them. Perhaps "forgivable sins" and "unforgivable sins"? Let's try that.

"Forgivable sins" are the ones where your NES buddies will say that "it can happen to the best of us—glad you're ok." Putting your finger on the trigger when you're not supposed to is in that category. Even very well-trained people do it frequently when they're under stress. And I know that I can do it too: I was once caught by an instructor with my finger inside the trigger guard while reloading. I was shameful as a scolded puppy and promised myself to be more careful, but I know that it can happen again. Failing to check that the gun is unloaded is another such "forgivable sin." It helps to be careful and pay attention. It helps to work it into your routine. But good people still forget sometimes. Failure of well-maintained guns, though rare, also falls in to this category.

"Unforgivable sins" are the ones where NESers say that "he was a moron and deserved to die—and he was probably a cop." The typical example is the guy who points his gun at his friend or dog to dry fire. Once you have identified a few safe directions in your house, you know to only point the gun there when you dry fire. Pointing it somewhere else is not an honest mistake that just happens. If you point it somewhere else, you're not just forgetting a step in your routine: you are doing something you have never done before and promised yourself never to do. You have to willfully ignore the safety rule you set for yourself.

The trick, of course, is to organize your gun handling so that a sin of the first type always has to be combined with a sin of the second kind in order for someone to get hurt. Being really strict about safe direction goes a long way. Insist on a safe backstop when loading and unloading, even though you're trying really hard to keep your finger off the trigger. Insist on a safe backstop when you dry fire, even though you're trying really hard to remember to check that the gun is unloaded, and even though it is fun to wander around the house and shoot all the light switches and mirrors.

One situation that I don't have a good solution for is holstering. Some NDs happen when the trigger gets caugh in clothing, folded in holster material, or a finger while holstering. Sure, you can try to be careful to keep clothing out of the way, inspect your holster, move your leg the other way, and so on, but these are all things that it's possible to screw up without being a moron that deserves to die. Always removing the holster before holstering isn't practical when practicing. (But if you can leave the gun loaded holstered on days you are not practicing, you reduce the exposure. If the gun stays holstered from the safe to the belt and back, not much can go wrong.)

^^too complicated

- - - Updated - - -

It's negligent discharge. Call it what it is. Accidental discharge shifts blame to the firearm. It's the user

If its the firearms it's mechanical failure.

^^This.
the discharge is either secondary to human error or mechanical failure....there's no other way around the issue. And we know with certainty that human error (ND) is far more prevalent than mechanical failure (AD).

 

[whacko]

Are you serious? Not all mechanical failures are due to age and neglect.

My point is one cannot simply state ALL mechanical failures are not due to negligence. Basically I'm breaking it down into another "chunk" which even further reduces a pure "accidental discharge" to a frequency of almost non existence.

Hypothetical situation for you.......Mr Asshat buys a used semi auto pistol that is 20 years old......stuffs it in his safe for 5 years and never looks at it never inspects it just leaves it there. One day Mr Asshat decides to take this pistol for a jaunt.......inserts a magazine racks the slide checks that the safety is on and into the holster it goes and.......boom the rusty old pos discharges into his knee.......negligence or "purely a mechanical failure"?

See what I'm saying.......mechanical failures can be blamed on negligence........ever see the video of the fat **** shooting at a idpa match shoot himself in the calf holstering his 1911? He claimed mechanical failure.......but he was also a half ass gun plumber that did his own home "plumbing".

 

[whacko]

I think there is a useful distinction to be made between two kinds of unintentional discharges. I think "negligent" and "accidental" are the wrong words, but I'm not sure what to call them. Perhaps "forgivable sins" and "unforgivable sins"? Let's try that.

"Forgivable sins" are the ones where your NES buddies will say that "it can happen to the best of us—glad you're ok." Putting your finger on the trigger when you're not supposed to is in that category. Even very well-trained people do it frequently when they're under stress. And I know that I can do it too: I was once caught by an instructor with my finger inside the trigger guard while reloading. I was shameful as a scolded puppy and promised myself to be more careful, but I know that it can happen again. Failing to check that the gun is unloaded is another such "forgivable sin." It helps to be careful and pay attention. It helps to work it into your routine. But good people still forget sometimes. Failure of well-maintained guns, though rare, also falls in to this category.

"Unforgivable sins" are the ones where NESers say that "he was a moron and deserved to die—and he was probably a cop." The typical example is the guy who points his gun at his friend or dog to dry fire. Once you have identified a few safe directions in your house, you know to only point the gun there when you dry fire. Pointing it somewhere else is not an honest mistake that just happens. If you point it somewhere else, you're not just forgetting a step in your routine: you are doing something you have never done before and promised yourself never to do. You have to willfully ignore the safety rule you set for yourself.

The trick, of course, is to organize your gun handling so that a sin of the first type always has to be combined with a sin of the second kind in order for someone to get hurt. Being really strict about safe direction goes a long way. Insist on a safe backstop when loading and unloading, even though you're trying really hard to keep your finger off the trigger. Insist on a safe backstop when you dry fire, even though you're trying really hard to remember to check that the gun is unloaded, and even though it is fun to wander around the house and shoot all the light switches and mirrors.

One situation that I don't have a good solution for is holstering. Some NDs happen when the trigger gets caugh in clothing, folded in holster material, or a finger while holstering. Sure, you can try to be careful to keep clothing out of the way, inspect your holster, move your leg the other way, and so on, but these are all things that it's possible to screw up without being a moron that deserves to die. Always removing the holster before holstering isn't practical when practicing. (But if you can leave the gun loaded holstered on days you are not practicing, you reduce the exposure. If the gun stays holstered from the safe to the belt and back, not much can go wrong.)

Use your forgivable sin thought process and you will be that guy that shoots his own ass or someone else.