Holster Myths and truths

[JimConway]

In this thread I am going to list a number of comments that I have heard about holsters. I would be interested in hearing what all of you think. With a little effort, maybe we can get a good discussion going.

A Small of the Back holster is an ideal concealment method.

A cross draw holster is tactically unsound.

A Inside the waistband holster is more cancealable that an outside the waistband holster.

Deep concealment is a nifty way to carry your gun.

An ankle holster is tactically sound.

Fruit of the loom (flimsy nylon and suede) are okay.

You can not conceal a big gun (1911 - 5").

Belt slide (Yaqui) slide holsters are the mark of a profesional.

Shoulder holsters are not practical.

The holster is of secondary impotrance to the gun.

Off body carry is not worthy of consideration

Do any of you have any opinions or comments about the statements listed above??

 

[Adam_MA]

A Small of the Back holster is an ideal concealment method.

Maybe for some, but I won't take the risk. Also how can you possibly maintain muzzle discipline while drawing?

A cross draw holster is tactically unsound.

Again you have the muzzle discipline issues, but can be useful while seated. I would also have concerns about carrying my gun and spare mags on the same side.

A Inside the waistband holster is more concealable that an outside the waistband holster.

I will agree with this statement. With a quality IWB holster, I can conceal my 1911 with just a T-shirt

Deep concealment is a nifty way to carry your gun.

Nifty? I don't know if I would specifically say nifty, but for some of us it's the ONLY practical way to follow the first rule of a gun fight at all times. Rule #1 of a gun fight: Have a gun. It would be nice if we all owned our own businesses and could carry as we wish, but some of us work for big corporations, and have to perform duty's that would make printing or revealing of our firearms a very real situation. Deep concealment is one of the only ways available to carry every day.

An ankle holster is tactically sound.

I don't have any experience with ankle holsters, but it would seem that you could carry a much larger backup gun on your ankle than in your pocket.

Fruit of the loom (flimsy nylon and suede) are okay.

I don't know what this means, I haven't seen any of these types of holsters.

You can not conceal a big gun (1911 - 5").

Pure BS. It can be done easily.

Belt slide (Yaqui) slide holsters are the mark of a professional.

I tried one, and it wasn't bad, except it would not keep it's shape when the gun was removed. I don't like having to point the gun into my side to get it back into a holster. Also didn't feel like my gun was secure.

Shoulder holsters are not practical.

I think you would have the same muzzle discipline issues you would with cross draw and SOB carry, but for some they may be the best option. To out and say that they are not practical period doesn't make sense.

The holster is of secondary importance to the gun.

While a perfectly functioning gun that you can shoot well may very well mean your life or death, I think the same can be said about your holster. If your holster doesn't retain your gun properly, and allow you to smoothly, quickly, and accurately present your weapon, it could also mean life or death. A good quality holster specifically made for the type of gun you are carrying is essential, and costs money.

Off body carry is not worthy of consideration

Every type of carry is worth consideration, though I think it would be way to easy to take it off, and put it down, not to mention I can't imagine it's in any way "fast" that it would be a consideration for me.

 

[jar]

I'm just a newbie, but I'll take a crack at it to start discussion.

>A Small of the Back holster is an ideal concealment method.
Concealable? maybe. Comfortable? I can't see how. Also, there's the oft mentioned danger of falling on it causing spinal injury.

>A cross draw holster is tactically unsound.
I don't see why. I do see why they scare some range safety people though. Yes you can draw from one without muzzling people next to you, but you have to pay attention.

>A Inside the waistband holster is more concealable that an outside the waistband holster.
I agree for certain types of clothing. I don't see how you would conceal an OWB holster without a jacket or an oversize shirt.

>Deep concealment is a nifty way to carry your gun.
>An ankle holster is tactically sound.
It's slower to draw, but it beats having the gun miles away in the safe.

>Fruit of the loom (flimsy nylon and suede) are okay.
I'm not sure what you mean here.

>You can not conceal a big gun (1911 - 5").
Wrong. I can easily conceal a Hi-Power OWB if I wear a 3/4 or full length coat, and I'm only 5-7 / 160. I have a friend who carries a Gov't Model 1911 IWB every day with jeans and a shirt.

>Belt slide (Yaqui) slide holsters are the mark of a profesional.
I don't know, but I doubt it.

>Shoulder holsters are not practical.
They aren't for me, since I don't wear a jacket all the time. If you do, and you drive a lot, they seem like a good option.

>The holster is of secondary impotrance to the gun.
They're both important. For concealment's sake, the holster is equally or more important than the gun. A whiz-bang holster with a gun that's unreliable or you can't hit anything with isn't worth much though.

>Off body carry is not worthy of consideration
It isn't for me. Given our political climate and my occasional forgetfulness, it would be a terrible idea for me personally.

 

[JimConway]

Holster thoughts

Just to keep this going, I will add some thoughts.

In a non permissive environment, we have to make some choices. Some of these choices can be very hard. Depending on our required mode of dress, it may be a choice between not carrying and rather unattractive carrying methods. In this situation, deep concealment, ankle holsters and off body may become good choices.

On SOB holsters, consider that you are much more likely to fall on your back than to need a firearm.

Consider that a shoulder holster is simply a very uncomfortible cross draw holster. The only place that I can see a shoulder holster is when wearing a buttoned suit jacket.

A Inside the waistband holster is more concealable that an outside the waistband holster. This is true but by only about 2" or 3" of length for the cover garment. The outside the waistband holster is however much faster

BTW, does anyone have any opinion as to what holster type is the fastest to draw from?

 

[cdkayak]

BTW, does anyone have any opinion as to what holster type is the fastest to draw from?

I'd lean towards an appendix carry. From trying different positions that seems to have the least waisted movement.

Pocket carry can also be very fast since a proper grip can be established without raising any suspicion if the situation allows.

 

[JimConway]

Speed

In my opinion, you are right. We ran a bunch of informal tests and it was clear to all that appendix was much faster. However we did no compare it to pocket carry.

As with everything in life there are compromises. To get a faster presentation we have to give up some comfort. BTW, the most comfortible Appendix holster that I have worn is the Comp-tac "2 O'clock"

 

[jamz]

In this thread I am going to list a number of comments that I have heard about holsters. I would be interested in hearing what all of you think. With a little effort, maybe we can get a good discussion going.

A Small of the Back holster is an ideal concealment method.

Wrong. there is no "ideal". Depends on the situation.

A cross draw holster is tactically unsound.

Same argument for this method of concealment.

A Inside the waistband holster is more cancealable that an outside the waistband holster.

I'd buy this, but as long as the cover garment is long enough, there's no difference. I hate IWB, personally.

Deep concealment is a nifty way to carry your gun.

An ankle holster is tactically sound.

Same arguments for concealed methods go for these.

Fruit of the loom (flimsy nylon and suede) are okay.

Okay, but not great nor preferable. Beats nothing at all though.

You can not conceal a big gun (1911 - 5").

Quite wrong.

Belt slide (Yaqui) slide holsters are the mark of a profesional.

A professional what? A call girl?

Shoulder holsters are not practical.

You have some muzzle coverage issues when drawing, but it's not bad.

The holster is of secondary impotrance to the gun.

I'd say that a holster is in the same toolkit that your gun is in, and you need to know them both. If one fails to perform, you are equal trouble.

Off body carry is not worthy of consideration

Now that's just silly. Everything is worth consideration.

Do any of you have any opinions or comments about the statements listed above??

That's about it for me.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

I'm just a newbie, but I'll take a crack at it to start discussion.

>A cross draw holster is tactically unsound.

I don't see why. I do see why they scare some range safety people though. Yes you can draw from one without muzzling people next to you, but you have to pay attention.

They are considered tactically unsound (or if you prefer, "less sound") for three reasons:

1: They are said to "invite" gun grabs. Someone standing in front of you can just reach out and your gun is right there.

This, I believe, is more of a problem for uniform LEOs than CCW civiilians. I can certainly understand why uniformed cops would want to keep their sidearm on their strong side and turn that side AWAY from an unknown person they are interacting with at close range.

2: They can be much harder to draw from during a struggle. Reach across your body as if to grasp a gun carried crossdraw, then imagine your opponent closing with you and pushing your arm hard against your body while attacking you. Now put your strong hand back as if to draw from a strong side holster and imagine the attacker trying to close with you the same way.

3: As Bill Jordan pointed out in NO SECOND PLACE WINNER, your opponent is about 5 to 6 feet tall, but only about 2 feet wide. Bill believed that a strong side draw, which is a VERTICAL motion, is inherently less likely to cause you to miss than a cross-draw, which is a HORIZONTAL motion. He felt you were more likely to swing PAST your target during a fast cross-draw.

Regards
John

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

While a perfectly functioning gun that you can shoot well may very well mean your life or death, I think the same can be said about your holster. If your holster doesn't retain your gun properly, and allow you to smoothly, quickly, and accurately present your weapon, it could also mean life or death. A good quality holster specifically made for the type of gun you are carrying is essential, and costs money.

I agree completely. Plus there's the comfort issue when you carry a gun for 12 or more hours a day.

Regards
John

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

Every type of carry is worth consideration, though I think it would be way to easy to take it off, and put it down, not to mention I can't imagine it's in any way "fast" that it would be a consideration for me.

Traditionally, Off-Body carry was usually practiced by women. (The gun in the purse.) And since purses were the target of purse-snatchers . . .

It's easy to see why this is not usually favored.

Regards
John

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

>Shoulder holsters are not practical.
They aren't for me, since I don't wear a jacket all the time. If you do, and you drive a lot, they seem like a good option.

I worked for a few years as an armored car guard. One of my partners was a young woman. The weight of the sidearm on her hip ended up pulling her hip over and put her back out of line. She ended up going to a chiropracter for her back trouble, and on his recomendation, switched to a shoulder holster. No more back trouble.

Regards
John

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

I don't have any experience with ankle holsters, but it would seem that you could carry a much larger backup gun on your ankle than in your pocket.

I don't like ankle holsters for PRIMARY carry. The motion needed to draw from them leaves you wide open and unable to defend yourself if your attacker is able to close on you before you can retrieve the gun.

Some like it for carry of the backup gun, and point to the fact that it is much easier to draw this gun from a seated position. I dunno, now you've got a decision tree to deal with under stress. Which gun do you reach for? I suppose sufficient training can overcome this. With enough practice, I suppose you'll automatically reach for the ankle gun if seated, and for the hip gun if not. But if you start down this road, it means you have to carry both guns ALL the time. Otherwise, you may condition yourself to reach for a gun that isn't there that day.

Regards
John

 

[cdkayak]

In my opinion, you are right. We ran a bunch of informal tests and it was clear to all that appendix was much faster. However we did no compare it to pocket carry.

As with everything in life there are compromises. To get a faster presentation we have to give up some comfort. BTW, the most comfortible Appendix holster that I have worn is the Comp-tac "2 O'clock"

Thanks for the heads-up on Comp-tac's 2 O'clock, I must have missed that one in the past.

I wouldn't put pocket carry in a head to head competition with most other types of carry in regard to speed, although it can be quick. The primary advantage it has is avoiding the normal movements of drawing a handgun that would telegraph your intentions.

 

[andy t]

Jim,

I am curious what holster/gun combo you used in your IWB vs OWB concealment tests and in what position was the holster
used? I used to carry IWB with a P99C using Comptac CTAC for a while, and haven't been able to find an OWB holster that
would conceal P99C just as well. I am trying out Don Hume JIT for my G27, however, it is less concealable since there is
more spacebetween the holster and my body.
Regarding speed: I found drawing from IWB to be as fast as OWB. However, I didn't drill OWB drawing a lot so that may
account for the speed similarity. Besides, another benefit of IWB holsters, for me, is that they keep the gun closer to the
body, so you don't have to move the hand so much when getting the initial grip on the gun.

You can definitely and easily conceal a full size 1911 using proper holster.
And holsters do matter. Consider that you just spend anywhere from 300 to 2000 on a gun. How can you consider putting it in
a $10 flimsy pos holster?

I have come up with the following two requirements on all holsters that I consider for concealed carry:
No thumb strap or any retention mechanism.
If IWB, the holster must retain its shape with the gun drawn in order to allow one handed re-holstering.

Southnarc also recommended to get a leather holster for carry, as it binds more than kydex, making gun grabs more
difficult. I am a little behind, and yet to buy my first leather IWB holster.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

Southnarc also recommended to get a leather holster for carry, as it binds more than kydex, making gun grabs more
difficult. I am a little behind, and yet to buy my first leather IWB holster.

The people over at Insights Training do a fair amount of gun retention training, and they report that they have yet to find a Kydex holster that won't rip off the belt during a real struggle for the gun. For that reason, they only recomend leather.

Regards
John

 

[JimConway]

Some aditional thoughts on holsters

Someone mentioned having missed Comp-Tac's 2 O'clock appendix carry holster. You did not miss it. It is brand new.

The major problem with Yaqui slide holsters is that the gun can be dislodged when sitting and a BG could hit the exposed slide upward and knock the gun completely out of the holster.

John from NY, thanks for getting into the gray. You have a lot to offer.

When considering holsters, it is important to remember that most confrontations start at arm's length or at one step from arm's length.
Also consider that, despite your awareness, you may not see it coming. remember that s**t happens and Mr. Murphy is alive and well. There are only two roles that you can play. You are either the ambusher or the ambushee. At very close ranges, you have very limited options and a gun is rarely one of them. To access a gun, in this kind of close confrontation, you will have to create a window of time, space or by controlling the BG's arm closest to your gun. Do not even think of trying to access the gun until you have the required window. Remember that the BG is attacking with both hands and you will need both of your hands to fend off or grappple.
The problem with most gun people is that they think that the gun is the solution to every problem. They are WRONG!!!

Available close range options are as follows:
Speed Rock
Shove/step bacl/shoot
Angle forward attack
Elbow forward attack
A simple drive forward
Drop to the deck
Fight it out
Run

 

[Adam_MA]

Available close range options are as follows:
Speed Rock
Shove/step bacl/shoot
Angle forward attack
Elbow forward attack
A simple drive forward
Drop to the deck
Fight it out
Run

You forgot the 3 stooges eye poke!

 

[JimConway]

Eye poke

Adam
The eye poke is a very advanced technique which we only teach to advanced students.

 

[P-14]

A Small of the Back holster is an ideal concealment method.

Jim, This method is not ideal for every circumstance, but it is my preferred carry for full-sized .45s. I own two Alessi MOBs and have found them comfortable for long periods of time with a good pistol belt, instant lumbar support, safe to draw without crossing my body, good cover, and easy access even in a car. I also own an Alessi double tallon IWB, but I do not enjoy carrying with it as much.

I am aware of the issues with spinal injuries, but have not seen any data on people injured by falling with MOBs. I have never had any issues falling with it while I am carrying and am interested in your comments.

Regards,

Bob

 

[AndyL]

Jim is baiting me again...

Jim,

Quit baiting me!!!! Anyway, let me answer, I am opinionated on this topic!

For those that don't know me, I make rifle slings and holsters, I am at www.shottist.com (informational purposes only NOT self promoting here)

My Answers under your statements:

A Small of the Back holster is an ideal concealment method.
(it works for some NOT for others)

A cross draw holster is tactically unsound.
(it works VERY VERY well in the vehicle and can be well concealed)

A Inside the waistband holster is more cancealable that an outside the waistband holster.
(body style and dress dictates much concealment concerns)

Deep concealment is a nifty way to carry your gun.
(if you need it DEEP!)

An ankle holster is tactically sound.
(better than no gun at all)

Fruit of the loom (flimsy nylon and suede) are okay.
(you didn't just say that......please NOOOOOOOO!)



You can not conceal a big gun (1911 - 5").

(I am carrying 2)

Belt slide (Yaqui) slide holsters are the mark of a profesional.
(Er uh, Jim, be nice, I wet mold mine, some folks with high front sights can catch them on the leather, I wear mine all the time, SOMEONE here has a pink one.....Jim, post photos of HIM!)

Shoulder holsters are not practical.
(they work well for some attire)

The holster is of secondary impotrance to the gun.
(sometimes!)

Off body carry is not worthy of consideration
(go unarmed?)

Do any of you have any opinions or comments about the statements listed above??
(nope, none....)



Andy
__________________

 

[JimConway]

Andy Langlois

You all should consider yourselves honored to have Andy langlois adding his two cents on this topic. His has been known to make some very fine heather holsters and rifle slings.

As one of our esteemed moderators can attest, Andy's PINK holsters are something to behold. I have been sworn (threatened is more correct) to not reveal the name of the Moderator with the PINK holster, so please do not ask.

Andy is also a police officer, a good friend and a member of Neshooters, LLC.

 

[jar]

Is the moderator with the pink holster still a mod? I seem to recall something about you being sworn to secrecy relative to a long time mod who recently stepped down.

 

[JimConway]

i can neither confirm or deny your statement. If I did either I would be giving you an important clue. My life is worth way more than that.

 

[TonyD]

A Small of the Back holster is an ideal concealment method.

A cross draw holster is tactically unsound.

A Inside the waistband holster is more cancealable that an outside the waistband holster.

Deep concealment is a nifty way to carry your gun.

An ankle holster is tactically sound.

Fruit of the loom (flimsy nylon and suede) are okay.

You can not conceal a big gun (1911 - 5").

Belt slide (Yaqui) slide holsters are the mark of a profesional.

Shoulder holsters are not practical.

The holster is of secondary impotrance to the gun.

Off body carry is not worthy of consideration

Do any of you have any opinions or comments about the statements listed above??

False;

False:

True;

False;

False;

False;

False;

False;

True;

True;

False.

 

[Chris]

Adam
The eye poke is a very advanced technique which we only teach to advanced students.

Base of the Cricoid cartilage is far more effective. Basically, find your collarbone and then the soft spot just above it at the base of the neck. Since there is zero natural protection there, it matters not how big the other person is, a good shot will make them forget about you long enough. Great target for a kubaton or other short object.

 

[JimConway]

Base of the Cricoid cartilage

Preaching to the choir again, I see

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

You all should consider yourselves honored to have Andy langlois adding his two cents on this topic. His has been known to make some very fine heather holsters and rifle slings.

As one of our esteemed moderators can attest, Andy's PINK holsters are something to behold. I have been sworn (threatened is more correct) to not reveal the name of the Moderaror with the PINK holster, so please do not ask.

Andy is also a police officer, a good friend and a member of Neshooters, LLC.

And there's a very nice review of his work in the current - Feb 08 - issue of S.W.A.T magazine, starting on page 12.

Regards
John

 

[depicts]

My favorite method of carry is in-pocket. Maybe even in two pockets, pants and jacket or one in each front pocket.

I have a very short-waist and find it difficult to use an IWB holster for a full size gun. I do use one for small backups and smaller guns like a Colt Mustang or a Beretta.

I like MOB carry, and used it for years until I found out it was dangerous for your back. I never had a problem, but I can see how it could happen.

I like good quality leather gear. I don't like plastic holsters or nylon belts. Nothing wrong with them, they're just not for me. I like the sound, smell and feel or good leather in addition to its effective use as a holster or belt. It's not a tactical consideration, but I like it.

Fruit of the Loom type holsters, Uncle Mike's, suede clip on holsters and T-shirts with inside pockets of nylon mesh don't work for me. They lose their shape and holding ability too quickly, especially in pocket holsters. Again, I prefer boned leather.

ankle holsters are too far from my hands. If I had one on and was jumped, I'd head for the ground as an unexpected move, and draw from horizontal if possible. I still prefer pocket carry, due to my size and shape.

I love shoulder holsters, except as I've gotten older, I don't have the taper from my shoulders to my waist that I used to have. Now I'm shaped more like a pear, and shoulder holsters just seem to stick out against my side.

I like my Yaqui holsters, but only at the range or in the field, not for tactical use as I don't find them stable enough for rough works, climbing fences or jumping obstacles.

The only "off body" carry I've ever used was a notebook holster and I held it in my hand. I don't know if that is off body.

 

[Doctordrew]

#1 have a gun
#2 have it concealed
#3 be able to access it as quickly as possible while keeping #1 and #2 first.

if that be 1 second or 10..you gatta make sacrifices but keep in mind #1

my 2 Cents.