Home Defence

[Weerd Beard]

I started this in another thread, but it's a subject that's of much interest to me, and I've heard a lot of conflicting stories.

Personally I belive the ideal round to use is is 12 guage #1 or 00 buckshot. And steel. This would be very devistating to the Goblin, but less likely to penetrate walls and other building meterials, so therefore less dangerous to innocents that are not in your line of sight.

My only experience with Buckshot penetration is shooting an old computer of mine with '00 steel shot. The round turned the sidewall (thin steel) into swiss cheese, but failed to penetrait the back wall.

Also the shotgun give the defender a LOT of gun to hang onto, steadying thier aim...also shooting a pattern is nice for a situation where adrenaline could be a factor.

Some interesting data is on this site:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/

Not owning a shotgun I go the "big and slow" route, using .45 ACP with federal Hydra Shoks. Besides theory, I have no idea what these rounds will do to a wall.

-Weer'd Beard

 

[Lynne]

Besides theory, I have no idea what these rounds will do to a wall.

You'll have to make a trip to Home Depot. The majority of ammo will go through inside walls, and a lot will go right through outside ones as well (depending on the wall ofcourse - if there's cinder blocks in them or reinforced cement, then ignore previous statement).

Edited to add: However, I'd rather make the trip to Home Depot if someone's breaking in to my house with nasty thoughts in mind.

 

[Adam_MA]

I saw one test, where 00 buck went right through 4 or so layers of 1/2" drywall and then penetrated plywood after and kept going. Therefore I use #4 for home protection (I have a small house with little ones to think of too)

Adam

 

[Admin]

If you are concerned about going through walls, a shotgun with a lighter shot i.e. 6 or 8 would be ideal. The encounter will more than likely be within 20 feet, even with adrenaline, a hit is probable.

 

[TonyD]

WB - Ol Painless has performed some really nice empirical tests.

The fact is that any round capable of producing the penetration needed to stop an attacker will not be phased by interior, and most exterior, walls. It is generally held that bird shot does not have the pentration required of a defense round.

Over penetration in home defense is very much a reality.

 

[Lynne]

If you are concerned about going through walls, a shotgun with a lighter shot i.e. 6 or 8 would be ideal. The encounter will more than likely be within 20 feet, even with adrenaline, a hit is probable.

Not that I'm a shotgun expert, even tho we have one in the home for PP, but I agree with that. I believe hubby picked up 6's for it. And, if all else fails, it make a bigger club to him them with. [lol]

 

[Weerd Beard]

Yeah yer probably right!

tho frankly I have my home-defence plan, and what I deem a very adiquate round for goblin-stopping and adiquate penetration, so I think I have minimized the risks.

Bottom line is that in a situation where home defence is needed I want somthing that will stop the goblin, and penetration is really an after thought.

I love the back-yard ballistics seen in Box-o-Truth, and I may have to set up my own experiment for next time I go to a sand pit.

Arrrr

-Weer'd Beard

 

[Admin]

a SG blast with 8 bird shot will stop anyone at 20 feet. If you don't believe me come to my house and I'll show you.

 

[Adam_MA]

It is generally held that bird shot does not have the pentration required of a defense round.

That's why I went on the recommendation at the local gun shop and got the #4. Better penetration than 7 or 8, bigger shot to do more damage, and penetrates much further.

It's always going to be a compromise.

Adam

 

[TonyD]

a SG blast with 8 bird shot will stop anyone at 20 feet. If you don't believe me come to my house and I'll show you.

You have very flawed logic. Don't bet your, or your family's life, on #8 bird shot stopping a determined or cranked-up intruder.

 

[Weerd Beard]

This is why it's such an interesting discussion.

And frankly since overpenetration is such a reality, it's another reason to have a good plan of action in the event a goblin comes knocking at your door.

**As if the bastards knock**

-Weer'd Beard

 

[Admin]

a SG blast with 8 bird shot will stop anyone at 20 feet. If you don't believe me come to my house and I'll show you.

You have very flawed logic. Don't bet your, or your family's life, on #8 bird shot stopping a determined or cranked-up intruder.

Ok, come over, get all coked up, come in through my patio door, and I'll see if my 12 guage Beretta with 8 shot will stop you. Wanna bet money on it?

 

[TonyD]

a SG blast with 8 bird shot will stop anyone at 20 feet. If you don't believe me come to my house and I'll show you.

You have very flawed logic. Don't bet your, or your family's life, on #8 bird shot stopping a determined or cranked-up intruder.

Ok, come over, get all coked up, come in through my patio door, and I'll see if my 12 guage Beretta with 8 shot will stop you. Wanna bet money on it?

Just because you don't believe it doesn't mean it isn't true. This isn't my 'opinion' on the matter. Do some research.

 

[Admin]

This coming from the guy who was defending the 9mm in the same exact way. I made my point. My 12 guage with 8 shot at 20 Feet will stop anyone.

 

[TonyD]

This coming from the guy who was defending the 9mm in the same exact way. I made my point. My 12 guage with 8 shot at 20 Feet will stop anyone.

I'm not going to continue to argue with you. #8 shot is not the same as a 9mm. A .22 LR has more penetration than #8 shot. Like I said, do some research. You might start with FBI ballistics.

 

[Admin]

Ya and a .22lr doesnt put a wound the size of a hockey puck in you either.

Oh wait you dont know what a hockey puck is.

 

[Len-2A Training]

A LOT depends on your individual circumstances!

I have 11 neighbors within 500' of me and although my house is on 3/4 acre, I am at an elevation ~15-20' higher than my neighbors and a shotgun is going to be a very serious liability (hitting innocents).

Derek's home is in a similar situation.

Now, if I had 5 acres of land and 1/4 mile from the nearest house, a shotgun would be a good idea.

Personally, my CAR15 with AimPoint and proper ammo (I'm lacking that right now) would be the best solution.

I've seen test reports on penetration and contrary to popular belief, the .223 has lower over-penetration capability (given proper ammo) than most common pistol rounds. This is due to the tumbling action causing the bullet to not penetrate as many walls (sideways) as a bullet would "point first".

Truthfully due to MGLs on gun storage, a handgun is most likely going to be the one thing that I can grab first.

 

[TonyD]

Oh wait you dont know what a hockey puck is.

Roughly the same size and of the same material as the brain you are currently using?

Do you really think #8 will put a hole the size of a hockey puck into a 200 lb. man at 20 feet? The plastic wadding would do more damage. If you aimed right, you might put out an eye.

 

[Admin]

Do you really think #8 will put a hole the size of a hockey puck into a 200 lb. man at 20 feet? The plastic wadding would do more damage. If you aimed right, you might put out an eye.

You gotta be kidding me... [roll]

 

[Len-2A Training]

Ya and a .22lr doesnt put a wound the size of a hockey puck in you either.

Oh wait you dont know what a hockey puck is.

Ahem! Let's not get personal, please.

A .22LR (pointy end) will indeed penetrate more than a pellet (round shape). If you hit the target, the idea with shotgun pellets is multiple wound channels causing the trauma. Thus, one can't easily say that a .22LR will do more damage than shotgun or that a shotgun will do more damage without knowing how many pellets hit vital areas and clothing has a lot to do with effectiveness of shotgun pellets (can easily slow them down/deflect them).

 

[Admin]

Tony's home defense gun.

 

[TonyD]

Do you really think #8 will put a hole the size of a hockey puck into a 200 lb. man at 20 feet? The plastic wadding would do more damage. If you aimed right, you might put out an eye.

You gotta be kidding me... [roll]

I was actually hoping you were kidding. Like I said, do the research. Hell, try a couple of barn-yard ballistic tests on your own. You'd be lucky to kill wabbit with that shit.

Edited by Lynne to reflect the post as it now stands.

 

[Lynne]

works for me! [lol] (the home defense gun, that is)

 

[Admin]

I'm not going to hijack this thread anymore. You are as stubborn as a mule. I've shot enough 8 shot to know what it can do to meat.

 

[dwarven1]

and people say that Cross-X and I snipe at each other!

Jeez, guys... just find a state where duelling is still legal and shoot it out. Derek with his #8 birdshot and Tony with his Glock wunder9.

 

[TonyD]

As long as you keep a closed mind, and I quote...

"Birdshot, because of its small size, does not have the mass and sectional density to penetrate deeply enough to reliably reach and damage critical blood distribution organs. Although birdshot can destroy a great volume of tissue at close range, the permanent crush cavity is usually less than 6 inches deep, and this is not deep enough to reliably include the heart or great blood vessels of the abdomen. A gruesome, shallow wound in the torso does not guarantee a quick stop, especially if the bad guy is chemically intoxicated or psychotic. If the tissue crushed by the pellets does not include a vital cardiovascular structure there's no reason for it to be an effective wound.

Many people load their shotguns with birdshot, usually #6 shot or smaller, to minimize interior wall penetration. Number 6 lead birdshot, when propelled at 1300 fps, has a maximum penetration depth potential of about 5 inches in standard ordnance gelatin. Not all of the pellets penetrate this deeply however; most of the shot will penetrate about 4 inches."

And I, in 14 years on the street, have witnessed many, many examples of what GSW's of all types do to 'meat'. Does the above make it any clearer or do I need to quote more examples?

 

[TonyD]

By the way, in case you didn't know, FBI experts say 12" of penetration minimum is needed of any projectile.

 

[Adam_MA]

Jeez, guys... just find a state where duelling is still legal and shoot it out. Derek with his #8 birdshot and Tony with his Glock wunder9.

From DumbLaws.com

City Laws
Boston Laws



No one may cross the Boston Common without carrying a shotgun in case of bears.



Duels to the death permitted on the common on Sundays provided that the Governor is present.


Let's ask Romney if he's into it!!

 

[Lynne]

Adam, you are a hoot.

 

[Nickle]

Seems some folks here have never been Grouse Hunting. Popular shot is 7 1/2's. Works good on squirrels and rabbits, too. Hell, the size in question, #8, would work as well on squirrels. And that's at 50 to 75 feet. Much closer than 50 feet, and they don't even make good stew, because they're mangled so much. AMHIK.

I posted about bird shot in the original thread. I've got as much or more experience with shotguns, especially hunting, as most folks here. I'll stand behind what I've said.

One valid point is that bird shot MAY overpenetrate at very close distance.

Another is you want to shoot for the head, to damage the throat. The perp will bleed out very quickly. Body shots with bird shot MAY NOT get the job done, but if you hit skin, it damned sure will stop the perp, maybe permanently.