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Home Defence
- Thread starter Weerd Beard
- Start date
TonyD
One Shot One Maggie's Drawers
And back to original I'll post more for those who still stand behind their birdshot...
"For personal defense and law enforcement applications, the International Wound Ballistics Association advocates number 1 buckshot as being superior to all other buckshot sizes.
Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.
In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.
For home defense applications a standard velocity 2 ¾-inch #1 buck shotshell (16 pellet payload) from Federal, Remington or Winchester is your best choice. We feel the Federal Classic 2 ¾-inch #1 buck load (F127) is slightly better than the same loads offered by Remington and Winchester. The Federal shotshell uses both a plastic shot cup and granulated plastic shot buffer to minimize post-ignition pellet deformation, whereas the Remington and Winchester loads do not."
I don't know how I can make it any clearer.
"For personal defense and law enforcement applications, the International Wound Ballistics Association advocates number 1 buckshot as being superior to all other buckshot sizes.
Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.
In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.
For home defense applications a standard velocity 2 ¾-inch #1 buck shotshell (16 pellet payload) from Federal, Remington or Winchester is your best choice. We feel the Federal Classic 2 ¾-inch #1 buck load (F127) is slightly better than the same loads offered by Remington and Winchester. The Federal shotshell uses both a plastic shot cup and granulated plastic shot buffer to minimize post-ignition pellet deformation, whereas the Remington and Winchester loads do not."
I don't know how I can make it any clearer.
Um the topic was less penetration. Thus the bird shot. If I wanted to hit my boys in the other room I would use buck or a slug.
No shit sherlock
No shit sherlock
TonyD
One Shot One Maggie's Drawers
The question was what is the best shotgun defense round. I already pointed out that any round capable of stopping a determined attacker WILL go through walls and present a risk to innocents.
Tony, everything you've said is true for torso shots.
Big shot isn't legal or proper for most game animals, except big game.
The depth of the jugular vein in the neck isn't anywhere's near 12".
If you shoot an attacking perp, in your home, with common bird shot, in the face, they absolutely, positively will stop. Immediately. And at the short distance within a house, it's easily doable.
If you've seen what #4 Buck does to a Goose, you'll know. But I WILL NOT advocate using shot that big, due to reduced pellet count, and that was before steel shot laws. I've found BB works better, and they're 50 yards or more away. I use no bigger than BBB shot in steel, and T's I believe are legal. But insufficient pellet count.
Big shot isn't legal or proper for most game animals, except big game.
The depth of the jugular vein in the neck isn't anywhere's near 12".
If you shoot an attacking perp, in your home, with common bird shot, in the face, they absolutely, positively will stop. Immediately. And at the short distance within a house, it's easily doable.
If you've seen what #4 Buck does to a Goose, you'll know. But I WILL NOT advocate using shot that big, due to reduced pellet count, and that was before steel shot laws. I've found BB works better, and they're 50 yards or more away. I use no bigger than BBB shot in steel, and T's I believe are legal. But insufficient pellet count.
TonyD
One Shot One Maggie's Drawers
What is it about facts from experts and ballisticians that you guys can't grasp? I don't make this shit up. What I quoted was from the International Wound Ballistics Assoc.
Nickle - Do you have any idea how long it takes to incapacitate a person from a severed jugular vein?
Again, from IWBA...
"Birdshot, because of its small size, does not have the mass and sectional density to penetrate deeply enough to reliably reach and damage critical blood distribution organs."
Nickle - Do you have any idea how long it takes to incapacitate a person from a severed jugular vein?
Again, from IWBA...
"Birdshot, because of its small size, does not have the mass and sectional density to penetrate deeply enough to reliably reach and damage critical blood distribution organs."
TonyD said:
Yes, in fact, several seconds, to a minute or slightly more. In this case I'd guess less than 15 seconds.
Incapacitation due to severe trauma to the eyes is instantaneous, faster than a heart shot. Bird shot to the face, remember.
Ever see how far a deer or moose runs after getting shot through the heart?
Ever see how long a chicken flaps it's wings after it's neck is broken?
I have seen both cases.
TonyD
One Shot One Maggie's Drawers
Nickle said:
So have I and you half illustrate my point.
Now, a shot to the face would be devestating with almost anything to most people. However, I'm not going to stake my life on having to make a face shot in order to stop an attacker. I have personally witnessed, first hand, the human body sustain devastating and mortal wounds and continue to function.
The problem with a home invasion is the fact you don't pick the time or circumstances. You don't get to dictate having a well aimed face shot at 20 paces.
You don't get to pick your weapon, either.
And if you just HAPPEN to be a hunter, and just HAPPEN to use Bird Shot, defending yourself from a First Degree Murder allegation is easier than using Buck Shot, especially an odd, hard to find size (anything other than 00 or 000).
You see, Tony, I thought this one through many years ago, not just today.
I'm also a hunter, and have first hand experience of what GSWs do to animals.
Fortunately, I don't have GSW experience on people. I wouldn't have gotten much choice of weapon or ammo, anyways.
And if you just HAPPEN to be a hunter, and just HAPPEN to use Bird Shot, defending yourself from a First Degree Murder allegation is easier than using Buck Shot, especially an odd, hard to find size (anything other than 00 or 000).
You see, Tony, I thought this one through many years ago, not just today.
I'm also a hunter, and have first hand experience of what GSWs do to animals.
Fortunately, I don't have GSW experience on people. I wouldn't have gotten much choice of weapon or ammo, anyways.
Just to give Tony my .02 of support...
I heartily recommend going over to tacticalforums.com and perusing through the terminal effects forum. Tons of good info and posts from Dr. Roberts, who studied under Fackler and has continued his testing. I believe those quotes Tony lists above are from him. And Tony's point stands - you have a tradeoff to make - if you want to use a round that will penetrate deeply enough to ensure you'll hit something vital, it will invariably be a round that if you miss will penetrate lots of interior structures like drywall and pose a risk to others. I haven't heard of any round that will do one and not the other. There are no magic bullets.
As for the idea that you can shoot someone in a particular area and then an otherwise ineffective round will work, that's up to you. I for one do not want to count on hitting the exact spot in a stressful situation. That's why we aim center-mass in those situations. And at short, hallway distances, you are not going to get a wide pattern with a shotgun, making misses more likely than you think.
I heartily recommend going over to tacticalforums.com and perusing through the terminal effects forum. Tons of good info and posts from Dr. Roberts, who studied under Fackler and has continued his testing. I believe those quotes Tony lists above are from him. And Tony's point stands - you have a tradeoff to make - if you want to use a round that will penetrate deeply enough to ensure you'll hit something vital, it will invariably be a round that if you miss will penetrate lots of interior structures like drywall and pose a risk to others. I haven't heard of any round that will do one and not the other. There are no magic bullets.
As for the idea that you can shoot someone in a particular area and then an otherwise ineffective round will work, that's up to you. I for one do not want to count on hitting the exact spot in a stressful situation. That's why we aim center-mass in those situations. And at short, hallway distances, you are not going to get a wide pattern with a shotgun, making misses more likely than you think.
TonyD
One Shot One Maggie's Drawers
Nickle said:
I'm not sure where you're coming from, here. I HAVE chosen my home defense weapon and the round for such. I'm quite sure everyone has.
You see, Nickle, I've thought this one through many years ago, not just today. And, unlike some others, I continue to evolve as new evidence becomes available.
I'm also a hunter, since my early teens, and have first hand knowledge of GSW's on animals. And, I have first hand knowledge and experience on what GSW's have on humans and had access to their toxicolgy reports.
Oh, hell, my home defense round is either a 9mm with NASTY bullets, or a 45 with 185 JHP Rem's in reloads.
But, I went through what the wife or kids might have to use, back when I didn't have a handgun at all.
I far more prefer a handgun, but penetration MAY be an issue for some folks.
But, I went through what the wife or kids might have to use, back when I didn't have a handgun at all.
I far more prefer a handgun, but penetration MAY be an issue for some folks.
TonyD
One Shot One Maggie's Drawers
Nickle said:
I also use a 9mm with 147 gr. The fact is, missed shots will go through walls and that is something we all have to be aware of.
Here is some additional info on shotgun rounds I thought I would include...
"Fourth choice is any 2 ¾-inch Magnum shotshell that is loaded with hardened, plated and buffered #4 buckshot. The Magnum cartridge has the lowest velocity, and the lower velocity will help to minimize pellet deformation on impact. The hardened buckshot and buffering granules also help to minimize pellet deformation too. These three innovations help to maximize pellet penetration. Number 4 hardened buckshot is a marginal performer. Some of the hardened buckshot will penetrate at least 12 inches deep and some will not."
And...
"Summary
With the right load, a shotgun can be very effective in quickly stopping the deadly violence being perpetrated by a criminal who's invaded your home.
If you're worried that a missed shot might penetrate through a wall and harm others, load your shotgun so that the first one or two cartridges to be fired is number 6 or smaller birdshot, followed by standard lead #1 buckshot (12 gauge) or #3 buckshot (20 gauge). If your first shot misses, the birdshot is less likely to endanger innocent lives outside the room. If your first shot fails to stop the attacker, you can immediately follow-up with more potent ammunition.
With birdshot you are wise to keep in mind that your gunfire has the potential to NOT PRODUCE an effective wound. Do not expect birdshot to have any decisive effect.
Number 1 buckshot has the potential to produce more effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck, without the accompanying risk of over-penetration. The IWBA believes, with very good reason, that number 1 buckshot is the shotshell load of choice for quickly stopping deadly criminal violence."
I disagree with loading birdshot followed by #1 buckshot simply because you never know if you'll get a second shot. However, it might be considered by those worried about walls.
I'm definetly concerned about over penetration. And with a little luck I'll never have to fully worry about it, and I'll be one of the many lucky ones who have never fired at a fellow human being, or needed to.
But frankly if all the poo is going to hit the fan enugh for me too need deadly force in my own home, I want to stop the goblin as SOON as I can, so I'd prefer to err more to the side of overpenetration than to err that a clean hit will NOT stop the target.
So the question is to limet that margin of error.
So is there any data on what the most effective .45 ACP load for home defence is?
I was of the mindset that 230gr JHP would be the best as it offers the slowest muzzle velocity....but then again I don't know how the muzzle ENERGY compares, and how that factors into walls.
-Weer'd Beard
But frankly if all the poo is going to hit the fan enugh for me too need deadly force in my own home, I want to stop the goblin as SOON as I can, so I'd prefer to err more to the side of overpenetration than to err that a clean hit will NOT stop the target.
So the question is to limet that margin of error.
So is there any data on what the most effective .45 ACP load for home defence is?
I was of the mindset that 230gr JHP would be the best as it offers the slowest muzzle velocity....but then again I don't know how the muzzle ENERGY compares, and how that factors into walls.
-Weer'd Beard
Check out http://www.tacticalforums.com/ and go to "The Terminal Effects Forum" for info on the ammo and comparisons.
If you find anything particularly interesting, please post back here with the URL to it.
I honestly hadn't been back on those forums in a year or more, so I don't know the answers to the questions that were asked, but I am certainly interested in the answers.
If you find anything particularly interesting, please post back here with the URL to it.
I honestly hadn't been back on those forums in a year or more, so I don't know the answers to the questions that were asked, but I am certainly interested in the answers.
TonyD said:derek said:a SG blast with 8 bird shot will stop anyone at 20 feet. If you don't believe me come to my house and I'll show you.![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
You have very flawed logic. Don't bet your, or your family's life, on #8 bird shot stopping a determined or cranked-up intruder.
Yes and no.
At close range, due to the tight grouping of the pellets, show size has essentially no effect on penetration. Number 9 bird shot and 00 buck produce essentailly the same results. Only when the load starts to string out does the shot size comes into play.
As to determines drug crazies, nothing that would leave your house standing is 100% effective. There's a documented case of a guy having a shotgun slug turn his entire heart into cat food, most of which was distributed to kitty through the exit wound. The walking dead man never even slowed down until the lack of blood and oxygen finally conveyed the message to his body..
The really nice thing about a good pump gun is the fact that you'll almost never need to use it. Humans seem to be born with the ability to recognize the sound of the slide being racked, triggering an almost uncontrolable desire to be somewhere not downrange. (Probably the result of Darwin in action).
Ken
KMaurer said:
I was watching 'History of the Gun' on The History Channel and they had a sheriff's deputy saying the same thing, how so reason that sound triggers 'The person means business'.
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