HXP - A Flyer In Every Group!

[Mountain]

I'm quoting mac1911 regarding a flyer in every group of HXP. Today while tuning up for the upcoming CMP match I was burning through some of the CMP HXP that I bought as 2 tins in a wood crate, in enblocs and bandoliers. I have not shot much of it yet. It's all HXP 77 head stamped and generally decent ammo. Garand shooting well at 100 yards despite winds strong enough to blow my reading glasses off the bench. With a little timing I was able to work around the wind and get some decent 100 yard prone groups from the ol' CMP Special.

Below is my last target that shows a flyer that I swear wasn't me (this time ).



The lower right flyer was a real anomaly for everything I shot today. It was shot #4, with the 5th shot back in black, at 4:00 position just outside the X-ring. The brass ejected in a totally different position than the other 4 shots, so I figured something was up. That particular piece of brass had more tarnished spots and even small pits at some of the spots. What's really odd is the scraped clean area on the shoulder. There appears to be a small split right at the apex of the shoulder. It might be a 'wrinkle' where the brass was a little malformed. I'll bet if this were .223 it would not have gone into battery. M1 Garands really ram it home.



HXP generally makes good reloading brass, but based on this one I'll be inspecting a little more closely and suggest others do the same.

 

[majspud]

'53 Yugo M48 8MM has the same issues...the hole is bigger and shaped differently than the others.



T

 

[Mountain]

'53 Yugo 8MM has the same issues...



T

LOL, that's a great grouping until you see that flyer.

HXP really isn't that cheap to have those random crappy rounds in it. I imagine the Yugo isn't that cheap either.

 

[majspud]

I'm into my reserve supply of '50's Yugo I bought in three sealed cases (900 rounds; 2 x '53 and 1 x '54 on strippers) 6-8 years ago. They averaged $5-6 a box, $300-$350 case. My very first case was $225 in '08. Not anymore. I did score a case of '97 Yugo for $425 last year; that's $7/box before shipping - I'm saving that one.

Two years ago I bought 23 boxes of '77 M75 Yugo for $7/box. Turned out to be crap - worse than the '53 - mostly click/bang. The stuff I'm shooting now I got straight from the tin and has been climate controlled since opening.

There's an auction on GB now for 8 boxes of '55 M48 Yugo for $50; no bids, comes out to $6.25 before shipping.

Another auction on GB is for 285 rounds of '51 M48 Yugo with BIN of $135. That's $15/box before shipping.

t

 

[mac1911]

'53 Yugo M48 8MM has the same issues...the hole is bigger and shaped differently than the others.



T

You have that elusive and rare same hole double flyer. Usually they are 180' apart.

 

[mac1911]

I'm quoting mac1911 regarding a flyer in every group of HXP. Today while tuning up for the upcoming CMP match I was burning through some of the CMP HXP that I bought as 2 tins in a wood crate, in enblocs and bandoliers. I have not shot much of it yet. It's all HXP 77 head stamped and generally decent ammo. Garand shooting well at 100 yards despite winds strong enough to blow my reading glasses off the bench. With a little timing I was able to work around the wind and get some decent 100 yard prone groups from the ol' CMP Special.

Below is my last target that shows a flyer that I swear wasn't me (this time ).

View attachment 196135

The lower right flyer was a real anomaly for everything I shot today. It was shot #4, with the 5th shot back in black, at 4:00 position just outside the X-ring. The brass ejected in a totally different position than the other 4 shots, so I figured something was up. That particular piece of brass had more tarnished spots and even small pits at some of the spots. What's really odd is the scraped clean area on the shoulder. There appears to be a small split right at the apex of the shoulder. It might be a 'wrinkle' where the brass was a little malformed. I'll bet if this were .223 it would not have gone into battery. M1 Garands really ram it home.

View attachment 196136

HXP generally makes good reloading brass, but based on this one I'll be inspecting a little more closely and suggest others do the same.

Why it's a good reminder most HXP is around 35 years old or older...made in a foreign country for general issue .....think about what the acceptable failure limits are when testing... I can't quite remeber exactly but I came across some testing specifications for M2 ball and they would pull 10k rounds out of a mil round run or so (?) Then they would test them for pressure , accuracy and velocity. The failure rate was pretty high. I want to say 4% on any given test? If it was exceeded they tested more ammo in the lot? Even at 2% that's a potential of 20,000 rounds that will suck out of a million...
Same with accuracy the ammo only needs to pass the average mean radius out of the testing to be good. This means there could be test groups that exceed the limit...

So just remember to inspect your ammo.
If it draws your attention put it aside.
I had some of the HXP sealed in tins with the 20 round card board boxes inside. Every round that touched the glued cardboard flap on the ends had corrosion. Enough so I did not shoot them.
I notified cmp and they where kind enough to replace the rounds that where affected... approx 120 rounds in total.

 

[Mountain]

This one looks like a flaw in the brass. Good advice to inspect better. I took a cursory look as I was pulling them from the enbloc. I'd be happy to use the good ones in a match, but oh the bad ones...

 

[mac1911]

This one looks like a flaw in the brass. Good advice to inspect better. I took a cursory look as I was pulling them from the enbloc. I'd be happy to use the good ones in a match, but oh the bad ones...

Yes absolutely pull them from the enbloc's.

 

[majspud]

I once got a discolored '43 Winchester round in a CMP loose can. The case just collapsed in my hand with finger pressure; spilling out the powder.

t

 

[dw617]

This one looks like a flaw in the brass. Good advice to inspect better. I took a cursory look as I was pulling them from the enbloc. I'd be happy to use the good ones in a match, but oh the bad ones...

I reserve those for Off-Hand practice

 

[Mountain]

I reserve those for Off-Hand practice

LOL! I need to start doing that. I was never good at awfulhand, but since my shoulder surgery it's worse. We'll see how I can hold up on Sunday. I'll practice a little...

 

[mac1911]

LOL! I need to start doing that. I was never good at awfulhand, but since my shoulder surgery it's worse. We'll see how I can hold up on Sunday. I'll practice a little...

Practiced with the daisy 853 with the spoons at 25 yards until I hit 10 in a row... done. Should shoot expert score sunday

 

[55_grain]

I once got a discolored '43 Winchester round in a CMP loose can. The case just collapsed in my hand with finger pressure; spilling out the powder.

t

Wow. Brass case? I've seen internal erosion on vintage steel cased ammo, but I wouldn't have expected it on a US-made .3006 round.

 

[majspud]

Brass M2 ball.

T

 

[mac1911]

Wow. Brass case? I've seen internal erosion on vintage steel cased ammo, but I wouldn't have expected it on a US-made .3006 round.

If I can find the cases I had cut in half that had sever rot from the inside. Like Majspud it was actually leaking powder out of small hole. IIRC it was LC 1950? So as with anything anything can happen.

 

[Mountain]

New vs. old at the range today- 6.5 Creedmoor AR that I finished and registered ~1 week prior to 7/20 Heil Healy day vs. my 1933 '03 National Match. Mostly I went to get some chrony data to take to Granby for 1000 yd orientation sometime soon. The 6.5 CM is a half MOA gun with scope. The '03 continues to amaze me for an 85 year old rifle with iron sights.

With the '03, I compared my usual Varget loads against HXP. Best result was with 155 SMK Palma bullets & Lapua brass- 1.02" group @ 100 yards, which technically is sub-MOA (1 MOA = 1.047" @ 100 yards). 168 SMK's & HXP brass almost as good.

How did the HXP do? By chronograph it looks better. Faster, and lower SD & ES. In fact the velocity was VERY consistent. However, another one of those damn flyers wrecked what would have been a 1.2" group and made it a 3.1" group.


Series 4 Shots: 5 Springfield 1903 NM
Min 2524 Max 2558 155 SMK Palma
Avg 2544 S-D 15 46.5 Varget
ES 34

Series Shot Speed
4 1 2550 ft/s
4 2 2534 ft/s
4 3 2524 ft/s
4 4 2557 ft/s
4 5 2558 ft/s



Series 6 Shots: 5 Springfield 1903 NM
Min 2821 Max 2844 HXP 77
Avg 2830 S-D 8.6
ES 23

Series Shot Speed
6 1 2833 ft/s
6 2 2844 ft/s
6 3 2830 ft/s
6 4 2821 ft/s
6 5 2826 ft/s

So what's causing these flyers? In this case it's not the powder charge- that would show up in the chrony results. Poor concentricity? Crappy projectiles? Combination of factors? I'm curious to see what would happen if I pulled some bullets & resized. I'd cull any bad brass and/or projectiles.

 

[mac1911]

New vs. old at the range today- 6.5 Creedmoor AR that I finished and registered ~1 week prior to 7/20 Heil Healy day vs. my 1933 '03 National Match. Mostly I went to get some chrony data to take to Granby for 1000 yd orientation sometime soon. The 6.5 CM is a half MOA gun with scope. The '03 continues to amaze me for an 85 year old rifle with iron sights.

With the '03, I compared my usual Varget loads against HXP. Best result was with 155 SMK Palma bullets & Lapua brass- 1.02" group @ 100 yards, which technically is sub-MOA (1 MOA = 1.047" @ 100 yards). 168 SMK's & HXP brass almost as good.

How did the HXP do? By chronograph it looks better. Faster, and lower SD & ES. In fact the velocity was VERY consistent. However, another one of those damn flyers wrecked what would have been a 1.2" group and made it a 3.1" group.


Series 4 Shots: 5 Springfield 1903 NM
Min 2524 Max 2558 155 SMK Palma
Avg 2544 S-D 15 46.5 Varget
ES 34

Series Shot Speed
4 1 2550 ft/s
4 2 2534 ft/s
4 3 2524 ft/s
4 4 2557 ft/s
4 5 2558 ft/s



Series 6 Shots: 5 Springfield 1903 NM
Min 2821 Max 2844 HXP 77
Avg 2830 S-D 8.6
ES 23

Series Shot Speed
6 1 2833 ft/s
6 2 2844 ft/s
6 3 2830 ft/s
6 4 2821 ft/s
6 5 2826 ft/s

So what's causing these flyers? In this case it's not the powder charge- that would show up in the chrony results. Poor concentricity? Crappy projectiles? Combination of factors? I'm curious to see what would happen if I pulled some bullets & resized. I'd cull any bad brass and/or projectiles.

You need to plot every shot and see if there is a sequence to the flyers... cold,warm,hot barrel.
I gave up on figuring out the HXP flyer and chalk it up as what to expect from GI ammo.

 

[Mountain]

This flyer was ~3" to the right of all other 4 shots. Rest of the group has ~.6" horizontal displacement. The 'stringing' is vertical. I had no pulled shots and the rifle never does this with hand loads. There's something inherently screwy with the ammo to do that.

 

[mac1911]

This flyer was ~3" to the right of all other 4 shots. Rest of the group has ~.6" horizontal displacement. The 'stringing' is vertical. I had no pulled shots and the rifle never does this with hand loads. There's something inherently screwy with the ammo to do that.

Inherently screwy= USGI

If you come across some M1 ball and it's in good condition see if your 03 likes that and see if you have a flyer.
I was wrong to say HXP has flyers. M2 ball has a flyer in group.

 

[mac1911]

Ed as far as your crony readings HXP might get a better reading because it had a bit metal jacket and the crony you have picks up magnetic disturbance to get its reading. So if your using jacketed ammo that attracts a magnet I think your readings will be better.
I only know one person with the magnetospeed
He bought it to crony 22lr data. Which it's picky with. He can get velocity to change by playing with the sensitivity of the unit. He said it would have been cheaper and less frustrating to send his rifle and ammo to lapua for testing!

 

[Mountain]

Magnetospeed is pretty clear about 22LR and pellet rifles- sensitivity adjustment is definitely necessary and the clearance from the bayo to bullet path must be tighter.

Maybe the ammo was a factor, but I think that SMK's are big enough and the mix of copper and lead should be more than adequate to get the best resolution from the unit.

I checked latest reviews & those having problems with the latest units were the anomaly- usually for 22LR or pellet rifles, or it was evident the reviewer having problems was not the brightest bulb. Some of the long distance guys are just leaving it on all the time. It may have changed my POI slightly but I don't think the effect on group size is measurable. The 6.5 CM AR at 1/2 MOA is normal and the 1903 at 1 MOA is as good as I can shoot that one.

At my range I absolutely do not want anything like a traditional chrony down range- someone will shoot it. Plus I don't want the set up hassle & the very compact stored size of the Magneto is great.

******

Tempting to pull the HXP projectiles and then reseat with Nosler blems, or just go plinking as is. Have not tried the PPU yet- hopefully that's better than HXP.

 

[mac1911]

I went through 1000 rounds of PPU M2 and wish I bought more. It's fine and better than HXP.
I had my crony shot by my friend (pellet gun) did not account for the scope/barrel when setting up.
I like having a crony it does have a purpose. I have a crony with remote display. It's the cheap model. The tech in the "Chrony" brand is old school and I wish they would come into the present with at least a WiFi set up for out puts. My electronic geek friend said photocell type crony is pretty hard to beat. Yes lighting can be a PITA but I have found ways to beat that. Larger sun screens and led lights help a lot.

 

[Mountain]

Found another 'iffy' HXP case from my spam cans after tumbling. Spots like the one pictured above but not only spots, the brass looked patchy and malformed. Upper part of the case near the neck. Looked like a failure waiting to happen. Must be my luck- I'll have to inspect these closely. I've had a lot of the HXP77 before and never noticed any issues.

 

[mac1911]

We have no idea where this stuff has been in its life.
Figure some of it had to come from the warehouse floor in some country some where.

 

[Mountain]

Seems that I've had more trouble with the HXP spam can ammo. All the same headstamp and later manufacture than mixed lots that I've purchased. Go figure...

 

[enbloc]

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