IDPA Equipment Question specific to de-cocking levers

[Amputee Marksman]

Division - SSP
Firearm in question - CZ 75 SP-01 Tactical and other DA/SA with a de-cocking lever than only lowers the hammer partially. The hammer is not dropped completely.

8.2.1.2 Start Condition:
8.2.1.2.1 Selective DA/SA firearms will start hammer down.
8.2.1.2.2 Firearms with a de-cocking lever or button will be de-cocked using the lever or button.
8.2.1.2.3 If the hammer must be lowered by pulling the trigger and manually lowering the hammer, the hammer will be lowered to the lowest position possible.


If you shoot the CZ in SSP do you have to manually lower the hammer? I say yes.

There are some who disagree with me stating that rule 8.2.1.2.2 says the pistol will be de-cocked using the de-cocking mechanism and if it does not lower all the way that is good enough. I say that is incorrect because you would be in violation of rule 8.2.1.2.1, you must start with the hammer down.

My interpretation is if you want to use the de-cocking mechanism with this pistol them you must shoot ESP. If you want to shoot SSP then you must lower the hammer manually.

Background: I am a certified SO in IDPA. That is my interpretation of the rule and also the interpretation of a certified SO Instructor in IDPA.

Not trying to open a hornet's nest, just curious what other IDPA shooters and SO think.

 

[eisenhow]

Not trying to open a hornet's nest, just curious what other IDPA shooters and SO think.

It doesn't matter what other IDPA shooters or SO's think. It only matters what IDPA HQ thinks on any given day. If S&W made the gun then it could start in any condition you want.

BTW the other sport says use a de-cocker if you have one. If you have to manually lower it must got all the way down, not half cock.

 

[M1911]

I'm a certified SO, but I no longer compete in IDPA. So take my opinion with the appropriate container of salt.

If someone had a gun with a decocker and decocked using the decocker, it was fine with me. If someone had a DA/SA gun without a decocker, they decocked manually all the way down.

I can't really understand why you would want to force someone who has a DA/SA gun with a decocker to decock manually. That is not something they are used to doing. In the case of some of those guns, by manually decocking you are bypassing safeties. You are basically encouraging an ND if you force them to decock manually. In fact, on some guns like my HK USPc, it is basically impossible to decock manually without the hammer slipping out of your grip, due to the design of the rear of the slide -- when the hammer is all the way down it is flush with the rear of the slide and has no protrusion to grip.

Think about what you are doing and what you are trying to accomplish.

 

[DPR]

I agree with the OP. DA/SA guns will start with the hammer down...not partially down. If it needs to be done manually then so be it. As far as going into ESP I think the same would apply no? I don't think ESP addresses it specifically (half cocked) but I would think the intent remains. Maybe try the forums within the IDPA site?

 

[M1911]

I agree with the OP. DA/SA guns will start with the hammer down...not partially down. If it needs to be done manually then so be it.

You really, really don't want to make someone with a USPc decock it manually.

There is a reason that these guns have a decocking lever, why the manual says to use the decocking lever, and why the manual says to NOT decock manually. You simply can't manually decock a USPc safely. When the hammer is fully down on a USPc, the hammer is completely flush with the rear of the slide -- there is no protrusion on the hammer for you to grab.

 

[DPR]

You really, really don't want to make someone with a USPc decock it manually.

There is a reason that these guns have a decocking lever, why the manual says to use the decocking lever, and why the manual says to NOT decock manually. You simply can't manually decock a USPc safely. When the hammer is fully down on a USPc, the hammer is completely flush with the rear of the slide -- there is no protrusion on the hammer for you to grab.

Decocking manually would be for pistols without a decock lever that decocks fully. Specifically the CZ that the OP has a question with.

 

[Sprocket]

I'm not quite sure but from my limited experience with anything IDPA, it usually means - I'll be polite and just say, "No soup for YOU!" type guys pressing their knowledge of rules against anyone potentially "not in compliance" with the rules.
It's like a race to see who can point out the infraction first.

Thanks - no thanks - keep your game and over-bearing rules enforcers to yourself.

If I could learn and enjoy the experience, I may just go to meets. Sadly, I do not enjoy my time there - as the little kid says, "No time for love Dr. Jones."

 

[DPR]

I'm not quite sure but from my limited experience with anything IDPA, it usually means - I'll be polite and just say, "No soup for YOU!" type guys pressing their knowledge of rules against anyone potentially "not in compliance" with the rules.
It's like a race to see who can point out the infraction first.

Thanks - no thanks - keep your game and over-bearing rules enforcers to yourself.

If I could learn and enjoy the experience, I may just go to meets. Sadly, I do not enjoy my time there - as the little kid says, "No time for love Dr. Jones."

. The question was about the safe start position of a specific pistol. The same question comes up in other action shooting disciplines regarding this pistol.

 

[M1911]

Decocking manually would be for pistols without a decock lever that decocks fully. Specifically the CZ that the OP has a question with.

I'm well aware of the question that the OP had. But perhaps you aren't familiar with the USPc. The decocking lever on the USPc doesn't lower the hammer "fully". When decocked, the hammer is slightly elevated. That makes no difference in trigger pull, but it is still slightly elevated.

So if you insist on being "fully" down with a CZ-75, then to be consistent, you would insist on a USPc being manually decocked until it is "fully" down. But the only way to do that is quite dangerous.

My recommendation instead, is that you take the obvious choice: "8.2.1.2.2 Firearms with a de-cocking lever or button will be de-cocked using the lever or button."

When you decock using the decocking device, then the hammer is down to the position that the manufacturer deemed safe for carry. The manufacturer did not intend for you to manually decock the gun to a different "down" position -- in fact the manual tells you not to do that. So don't tell the competitor to do something that the manual explicitly tells them not to do.

Think about what you are trying to accomplish.

 

[Sprocket]

. The question was about the safe start position of a specific pistol. The same question comes up in other action shooting disciplines regarding this pistol.

Thanks - this all gets hard to read via phone/tablet so there is some confusion - the longer the replies the harder to read.
Small print and old eyes don't help either.
Thanks again for the clarification - I'll re-read the thread and try to follow along without bias
Cheers

 

[eisenhow]

. The question was about the safe start position of a specific pistol. The same question comes up in other action shooting disciplines regarding this pistol.

One of the other shooting disciplines conclusion: USPSA DA/SA decocker clarification

As I said before it doesn't matter what you, I, or logic says. It only matters what IDPA HQ says, on any given day.

 

[DarrenL]

I'm well aware of the question that the OP had. But perhaps you aren't familiar with the USPc. The decocking lever on the USPc doesn't lower the hammer "fully". When decocked, the hammer is slightly elevated. That makes no difference in trigger pull, but it is still slightly elevated.

So if you insist on being "fully" down with a CZ-75, then to be consistent, you would insist on a USPc being manually decocked until it is "fully" down. But the only way to do that is quite dangerous.

My recommendation instead, is that you take the obvious choice: "8.2.1.2.2 Firearms with a de-cocking lever or button will be de-cocked using the lever or button."

When you decock using the decocking device, then the hammer is down to the position that the manufacturer deemed safe for carry. The manufacturer did not intend for you to manually decock the gun to a different "down" position -- in fact the manual tells you not to do that. So don't tell the competitor to do something that the manual explicitly tells them not to do.

Think about what you are trying to accomplish.

I would agree with this. If they use the decock lever, then I consider the hammer "down". I cannot tell if the hammer is all the way down, or partially down, etc, on guns I don't own. The issue is trigger pull, the goal is to have them in DA mode to start. The only time I have seen manual decock is CZ guys who want to start DA (vs using the safety in SA) and the gun does not have a decock lever. I would never ask a competitor to manually decock.

 

[szaino]

in IDPA the OP is correct:

SSP- hammer fully down, gun must start in DA.

ESP- shooter has the option to start either:
1) hammer fully down
or
2) cocked and locked

The rules are pretty clear on this.

 

[DW357]

I started out using my CZ75b for IDPA and just ran it in ESP division. Never considered manually decocking it and running it in SSP. Takes me a fraction of a second to flick off the safety while I'm drawing.

 

[DPR]

I'm well aware of the question that the OP had. But perhaps you aren't familiar with the USPc. The decocking lever on the USPc doesn't lower the hammer "fully". When decocked, the hammer is slightly elevated. That makes no difference in trigger pull, but it is still slightly elevated.

So if you insist on being "fully" down with a CZ-75, then to be consistent, you would insist on a USPc being manually decocked until it is "fully" down. But the only way to do that is quite dangerous.

My recommendation instead, is that you take the obvious choice: "8.2.1.2.2 Firearms with a de-cocking lever or button will be de-cocked using the lever or button."

When you decock using the decocking device, then the hammer is down to the position that the manufacturer deemed safe for carry. The manufacturer did not intend for you to manually decock the gun to a different "down" position -- in fact the manual tells you not to do that. So don't tell the competitor to do something that the manual explicitly tells them not to do.

Think about what you are trying to accomplish.

Slightly familiar with it and understand your point better now....which now makes the issue harder for my brain to process. I assumed the CZ's hammer could be lowered fully without being a safety issue and allow the shooter to start DA. If that's not possible and there is no external safety would half cocked be considered starting DA? To your obvious choice I would think it is and agree with starting de-cocked as the pistol is designed.

 

[DPR]

One of the other shooting disciplines conclusion: USPSA DA/SA decocker clarification

As I said before it doesn't matter what you, I, or logic says. It only matters what IDPA HQ says, on any given day.

I think that clarification is good hopefully IDPA has same. Thanks for sharing it.

 

[M1911]

Slightly familiar with it and understand your point better now....which now makes the issue harder for my brain to process. I assumed the CZ's hammer could be lowered fully without being a safety issue and allow the shooter to start DA. If that's not possible and there is no external safety would half cocked be considered starting DA? To your obvious choice I would think it is and agree with starting de-cocked as the pistol is designed.

Look at a SIG. Same thing. If you decock using the decocking lever, the hammer is slightly above the rear of the slide. If you decock manually, the hammer is lower, touching the slide. The manual tells you to decock using the decocking lever.

IMO, the hammer being slightly above the rear of the slide is an additional safety measure -- it isn't touching the firing pin (yes, I'm aware there is a firing pin block as well). If you manually lower the hammer (instead of using the decocking lever), you are bypassing this additional safety measure developed by the manufacturer.

I'll try to post some pictures tonight.

 

[DPR]

Look at a SIG. Same thing. If you decock using the decocking lever, the hammer is slightly above the rear of the slide. If you decock manually, the hammer is lower, touching the slide. The manual tells you to decock using the decocking lever.

IMO, the hammer being slightly above the rear of the slide is an additional safety measure -- it isn't touching the firing pin (yes, I'm aware there is a firing pin block as well). If you manually lower the hammer (instead of using the decocking lever), you are bypassing this additional safety measure developed by the manufacturer.

I'll try to post some pictures tonight.

I was going to mention SIG and how it would be foolish to lower the hammer without using the de-cock and why. And I don't think anyone would argue that a SIG's hammer is not fully down after de-cocking. Based on that and other comments I would say the hammer on the CZ tactical is considered fully down after being de-cocked by using the de-cocker.

 

[szaino]

Slightly familiar with it and understand your point better now....which now makes the issue harder for my brain to process. I assumed the CZ's hammer could be lowered fully without being a safety issue and allow the shooter to start DA. If that's not possible and there is no external safety would half cocked be considered starting DA? To your obvious choice I would think it is and agree with starting de-cocked as the pistol is designed.

Hammer must be fully down, not half cocked.

It seems scary but I have seen this done at many matches where the trigger must be pulled while holding the hammer to drop it fully. Shooters usually put the left thumb over the firing pin area as a backup precaution while doing this, then slide the thumb out for the final seating of the hammer.

 

[DPR]

Hammer must be fully down, not half cocked.

It seems scary but I have seen this done at many matches where the trigger must be pulled while holding the hammer to drop it fully. Shooters usually put the left thumb over the firing pin area as a backup precaution while doing this, then slide the thumb out for the final seating of the hammer.

What would you consider fully down? Decocked? What would you consider half cocked? Examples were a SIG classic DA/SA, the HK USPc and the CZ tactical -all with decocker. Each can be decocked with a decocker and is that then the proper start position? Or does the shooter need to further lower the hammer manually?

 

[szaino]

What would you consider fully down? Decocked? What would you consider half cocked? Examples were a SIG classic DA/SA, the HK USPc and the CZ tactical -all with decocker. Each can be decocked with a decocker and is that then the proper start position? Or does the shooter need to further lower the hammer manually?

There is only one "hammer must be fully down".

 

[DPR]

There is only one "hammer must be fully down".

So when a shooter with a da/sa sig loads, makes ready and decocks you would further require them to pull the trigger and lower the hammer down fully?

 

[drgrant]

So when a shooter with a da/sa sig loads, makes ready and decocks you would further require them to pull the trigger and lower the hammer down fully?

From the best of my recollection, this idea is a non starter anyways- on a DA/SA Sig you cannot do this because the rebound spring will put the hammer back into the safety intercept notch after you let go of it, which is exactly the same as the de-cocked position.

I'm not even sure what you guys are talking about at this point it sounds like you're creating an extension cord mess. The rules are pretty simple. You guys are beachballing in a circle here, whenever a decocker is present on a DA/SA in most gun games, they want you to use it. You do that during LAMR. Problem solved. If it's not present, (rare as ****, except for CZ and clones basically) you have to lower it all the way down manually.

Not sure what's so complicated.

-Mike

 

[szaino]

So when a shooter with a da/sa sig loads, makes ready and decocks you would further require them to pull the trigger and lower the hammer down fully?

It depends on the IDPA class- see my post #13.

 

[M1911]

It depends on the IDPA class- see my post #13.

I think you are misunderstanding the question.

 

[nstassel]

No way would you ask a shooter in ssp with a decocking lever to manually lower a hammer in ssp. So cz spo1 tactical is only decocked with lever like a SIG, or Beretta. Spo1, or 75b etc is lowered manually. I think the two rules read together are interpreted in this way. If there is a lever, good enough. If no lever, lowered 100 percent.

 

[szaino]

No way would you ask a shooter in ssp with a decocking lever to manually lower a hammer in ssp. So cz spo1 tactical is only decocked with lever like a SIG, or Beretta. Spo1, or 75b etc is lowered manually. I think the two rules read together are interpreted in this way. If there is a lever, good enough. If no lever, lowered 100 percent.

This is correct.

In SSP or ESP, If a gun has a decocking lever, then once activated that is all that needs to be done (no manual dropping of the hammer required). The manual dropping of the hammer is used when a gun doesn't have a decocker, like the CZ 75b sp-01 (just has a safety lever.)

Here are the rules. What is not consistent is in ESP 8.2.2.1.6.2, it doesn't use the same language about manually lowering the hammer if starting decocked.

8.2.1 Stock Service Pistol Division (SSP)...
8.2.1.2 Start Condition:
8.2.1.2.1 Selective DA/SA firearms will start hammer down.
8.2.1.2.2 Firearms with a de-cocking lever or button will be de-cocked using the lever or button.
8.2.1.2.3 If the hammer must be lowered by pulling the trigger and manually lowering the hammer, the hammer will be lowered to the lowest position possible.
8.2.1.2.4 In SSP, manual safeties may be engaged at the shooter’s discretion.


8.2.2 Enhanced Service Pistol Division (ESP)...
8.2.2.1.6 Start Condition:
8.2.2.1.6.1 Single action only firearms will start cocked and locked. (hammer cocked, safety engaged).
8.2.2.1.6.2 Selective DA/SA firearms will start cocked and locked or de-cocked. This is at the shooter’s discretion, including firearms using the SSP into ESP rule.
8.2.2.1.6.3 Double action, double action only, or striker fired firearms with a de-cocking lever or button will be de-cocked using the lever or button.
8.2.2.1.6.4 Double action, double action only, or striker-fired firearms may have a manual safety engaged at the shooter’s discretion