LEO gun nuts...

JonJ

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Hi Mike. Nice to have you here and congrats on being the board's 900th member!

Skald, all good ideas and nothing that hasn't been thought of and even tried before but it ain't gonna happen. Period.
 
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While Skeld's comments are the dream of anyone involved in In-Service LEO training, they are a few speed bumps.

Manufacturers will bend over backwards to make a sale, but they want to do it at top dollar. However, coop purchasing is already in effect in some areas. I ran the Patrol Division for a fairly large NJ department and we purchased from vendors holding a NJ State contract. That meant I didn't have to put out bids and the prices was great. As of a year ago, 1000 rounds of Winchester 9mm FMJ training ammo was $115 and 40S&W wasn’t much more. The great part about it was they could and did offer the pricing to state and municipal employees. Almost any item needed to run a department was available through this process.

While it is easy to say I want to expand training, where do you find the time? Firearms fights with every other mandated training subject for training time. Domestic Violence, Use of Force, Pursuit Policy, Chemical Spray, Harassment, Incident Command, Breathalyzer, Radar and others. Many of these subjects are more than eight hours each. When it comes to the town’s way of thinking, the chance of a employee using a firearm is much less than an employee getting involved in a Domestic Violence or High Speed Pursuit.


Our local gun club was the site of our training for over forty years and could not have been more cooperative to our department. In fact, it was at that club that I first learned to shoot, compliments of the DCM…But that club is gone, as are so many others on the east coast. So now you have to add travel time to the mix. As far as holding training sessions on the officer’s free time, no good. That is a violation of Federal law. No one can be asked to work for free, even if they desire to do it. If the agency sponsors it, they must pay overtime.

Our state had a procedure to follow for any non-qualifying employees but what do you do when one doesn’t qualify? It may become an issue for the pension board because if it can be traced to any physical ailment, the employee would be entitled to a pension. And that would only be after many rounds with the legal staff of the town, state and agency employee union.

Out of my 74 officers, maybe four or five actually had any interest in firearms. They have lives to lead and don’t work the scheduling that makes it easy to maintain a decent family life. Added to that is the fact that many work second jobs and very little time is left over so unless it was an interest beforehand, you aren’t going to see any added effort on their part.
 
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I know it comes down to money, unfortunately, but as we always say, this is not a toy. Besides, who said they had to goto official training to practice? I know the salary of a police officer is low, but they make up for it for the details. If you rather spend that $20 on beer than on practicing what your taught on your own, and 20-40 rnds a/month is better than that for what, the year? And though they are probably going to never draw their gun, but if they do what do you think the odds are they will hit the person they are aiming at? There is no sand berm behind the BG to stop the round if he misses. Behind him can be innocent lives who he may accidently hit and god forbid kill.

Honestly, asking a police officer to take the time of maybe 1 or 2 hr's a month to fire and practice what he has learned to much? And if he has to spend $20/mo of his own money so what, he wanted to be a police officer and one of the responsibilities of that is to be proficient in firearms.

And I can't say it enough, I do respect and thank all who are or have been a PO, and not meant to bash at you, but more of the system and some of the people who only do things reguarding their job if they are 'paid'.
 

JonJ

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I agree with everything you say but the cold hard truth is, it ain't gonna happen! We're mandated to qual once a year. Everyone does it and everyone quals. No one has the money, time or inclination to do more.
Like I've said before, I went and got certified as an instructor on my own time and that was after I was told that I would never be used.
We are the biggest town in the state area wise and the department admin basically does not want us shooting anywhere in town. One reason given was "noise".
I know a few guys that have expressed an interest in shooting more and even more that want additional training but it never comes.
I'll be taking a few to the range as my guests as their time permits. I'm always willing to take someone shooting.
 

Pilgrim

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derek said:
The most dangerous weapon in the U.S. Arsenal...


Hey, wait a minute ! When I was in the Army, I was the most dangerous weapon! At least that's what my DI told me.

He also told me I was deadly enough to get myself killed in a bar fight ![smile]


BTW, my son graduated from the Academy last year and is a reserve officer (I think that's the term) on the local PD. He's in line waiting to move up to 'regular'. He worked really hard in school and I'm real proud of him.
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Quals

[smile] We did have one who could not qualify and no one was putting their butt on the line to pass him. so he got a nice inside detail until he could retire two years later. But to be fair to the guy, he did have MS and it was great that the town helped him out.

But a few others were a challange..Thankfully I had an outstanding FI working for me that could work with anyone.

Cost to the officer wasn't an issue. Top Patrol Officer was in the 90K range. Free time and a location to shoot was a big issue. Is wasn't like you could hop in the car and ride ten minutes to a range. Maybe ride 40 minutes to a range and pay a total of $40.00 for ammo and range time. Ther police range was not open to them due to liability issues and time issues with other departments using the facility.[hmmm]
 

Len-2A Training

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ETA explanation of snubby vs. 4"

I had a FT Sgt (really nice guy) come up to me after our PD changed from revolvers to semi-auto (Beretta 92FS) and tell me that it was the first time in many, many years that he actually got a qualifying score!!

Of course they issued Sgts and above snubbies which are harder to shoot accurately without practice than the old 4" S&W 10 (later 64) that the patrolmen carried.

I just know that a number of officers did not reach qualifying scores each 6 months (qual was 2x/year back then). My gut tells me today that the chief probably doesn't even bother to try to qualify. When I qualified with MPTC in 2000 (it was a FT "in service" training event), I watched some officers (including 1 or 2 from our PD) struggle and fail 3 times. It was hot as hell there and as soon as I was done, I just blew out of there so I have no idea what happened to those that were still struggling.
 
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JonJ

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Here's another "for instance":
The last several weeks there have been problems with some ammo on range qual day. Several rounds failed to fire. The primers on these rounds are dimpled. It was thought that it was bad ammo Federal Tactical Rifle Urban (TRU), Nosler tipped. Looking closer at the dimple, it appears to be a light strike.
For the heck of it, I asked when the last time any of the AR's were stripped and cleaned. The armorer is a Gunny who has been deployed since December. The answer I got was "Who knows". Who cleans them now I asked, "No one." was the reply. They're used weekly.
The Sgt (former Marine), that I asked told me that he takes a particular rifle every day. "I take the same one every day because I stripped and cleaned it myself".
I asked him if he was going to do all the others. Answer: "NO!"
I don't have the luxury of being allowed the time to clean one and I have to take what's issued.
I may start to refuse the AR and take a DIRTY shotgun instead.

If change were to happen, it would have to come from the top. I'm waiting for Hell to freeze over.
 
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JonJ said:
Here's another "for instance":
<SNIP>
If change were to happen, it would have to come from the top. I'm waiting for Hell to freeze over.

That's sad and almost negligent to the point of being criminal. [sad2] If we can't depend on the police to be ready, then what?

RJ
 
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MrsWildweasel said:
How about they adopt from the military you are assigned a weapon, therefore you are responsible for cleaning such weapon.

You know. Why not just buy your own? Don't know if you can or not. But my buddy that's on North Attleboro, he bought one for him self that he keeps. He got his letter and then sent it off to Bushmaster. This was several years ago, but he was albe to use that one as his instead of the departments rifle.

Now that he's been hired on the MSP, I don't konw if that's still the case. I guess that I'll have to ask him. Never thought to bring it up before just now.
 

MrsWildweasel

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Jon, just curious, are there enough weeapons for every person or you have to share. If there are enough for every one why not issue and said person be responsible for cleaning.
 

JonJ

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MrsWildweasel said:
Jon, just curious, are there enough weeapons for every person or you have to share. If there are enough for every one why not issue and said person be responsible for cleaning.
There are maybe 15 shotguns and 15 AR's. They split up between them for a shift and chances are you get a different rifle every day.
I'd have no problem cleaning my rifle but tomorrow I'll get a different (dirty) one and when range day comes next week we start all over again. Not to mention that I have be on the road. It's a vicious cycle that will never end.
 

MrsWildweasel

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Ah, okay. Would be different if there were enough for everyperson and you could assign. Don't have any easy answers on that one for ya.
 

Len-2A Training

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Jon,

How about a conspiracy between you and the instructors so that you guys propose a new policy?

Propose a policy that an officer can purchase (at their own expense) the exact same gun and carry that in lieu of drawing out of the armory, once that an instructor inspects it to ensure that it meets the spec and is in good shape? That way, those that care enough to protect their own lives can do so!

This has worked on some other PDs. I've read this in some other LE forums.

This was the exact reason that I got my first Chief's authorization to purchase my own handgun for duty use!! I never looked back after that. Every time I shot that gun (average at least monthly, until I joined DEC and essentially stopped shooting for 12 years) it was cleaned. It was thoroughly checked every time it was removed from my safe! My life = my responsibility.
 

JonJ

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We have 2 instructors that the dept does use. One is deployed the other is the training Sgt. I'll PM you further on that...

Buying our own would never float. First, the same rifle would more than likely cost upwards of $1500. I'm not ready to make that investment and I know NO ONE else would. Second, it would be a major union issue with purchasing "our own". Third, the Admin would never allow anyone to use "their own".

There isn't an issue with pistols. Everyone does have their own issued firearm. It's just the rifles and shotguns.

Like I said before, I'll just start taking an 870 with me instead. The shotgun will operate dirty better than the AR.
 

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Sad, but understandable . . . especially by those of us who have worked for PDs, even if only part-time!

$1500! They must have all sorts of bling-bling on them there ARs. The more you add, the more opportunity for failure . . . especially if Not cared for (which is very likely in a PD).

Smartly our PD went plain vanilla. All but one are iron sights, no add-ons. KISS was the order of the day. One has a red-dot IIRC and I somehow think that it was only used by the Sgt on duty for the shift.

I was lucky that our late Chief was a gunny and Marine (Korea Vet), so when I made my request and explained why there was no problem. The following 2 chiefs might well have been a different story!
 
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NickW said:
I guess I'm not a fan of the phrase, "gun nut." Nick-

I'll second that comment. Nor do I like the phrase "knife nut" even though I own some rather nice knives.

It is rather funny though that it's assumed that all POs have some better than normal aptitude with guns. Nothing can be further (farther?) from the truth. A gun is a tool and to develop proficiency it must be practiced with, or used, deliberately and regularly. Many of the LE officers that I knew could not have cared less about guns. Sadly, it would be plainly obvious anytime we got together to shoot, either for qualification or just "for fun". And that's not meant as a slam, it's just the fact.
 

Joe G

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JonJ said:
There are maybe 15 shotguns and 15 AR's. They split up between them for a shift and chances are you get a different rifle every day.
I'd have no problem cleaning my rifle but tomorrow I'll get a different (dirty) one and when range day comes next week we start all over again. Not to mention that I have be on the road. It's a vicious cycle that will never end.

Aren't there provisions for cleaning at the end of range day? Even my kids know they have to clean up their toys when they're done playing.

- Joe
 

JonJ

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Joe G said:
Aren't there provisions for cleaning at the end of range day? Even my kids know they have to clean up their toys when they're done playing.

- Joe
There's some gear for cleaning, not the greatest of stuff and the majority of guys have no idea how to strip an AR or could care less, "Ain't my yob main"
 
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JonJ said:
There's some gear for cleaning, not the greatest of stuff and the majority of guys have no idea how to strip an AR or could care less, "Ain't my yob main"

Until the weapon malfuncitons.... a sad state of affairs when a professional doesn't care about his tools. [sad]

RJ
 

JonJ

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Jaxon said:
Until the weapon malfuncitons.... a sad state of affairs when a professional doesn't care about his tools. [sad]

RJ
You got it!
A side note, a rookie stuck inside for station officer duty was "asked" to clean all the AR's 2 weeks ago.
 
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