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MA Castle Law Question

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I'm looking for information on how you as a law enforcement officer might handle a scenario. I realize few want to respond to these things, but I was hoping that some of you might enlighten me with what you use as a standard as far as whether you would arrest the "occupant of the dwelling"

C 278, s 8a

In the prosecution of a person who is an occupant of a dwelling charged with killing or injuring one who was unlawfully in said dwelling, it shall be a defense that the occupant was in his dwelling at the time of the offense and that he acted in the reasonable belief that the person unlawfully in said dwelling was about to inflict great bodily injury or death upon said occupant or upon another person lawfully in said dwelling, and that said occupant used reasonable means to defend himself or such other person lawfully in said dwelling. There shall be no duty on said occupant to retreat from such person unlawfully in said dwelling.

Scenario:

Occupant of the dwelling has a Harassment Prevention Order against someone. That someone is a martial arts expert. That someone decides to visit the person who has the RO against them. The police are called, the the person being visited (who has the RO against the perp) then goes to his bedroom (last retreat) and retrieves a shotgun.

Perp breaks a window on the door and then gains access to the home. He then finds the occupant in their bedroom with the loaded shotgun pointed at him. The occupant then informs the person that if he moves a step closer, the occupant will consider his life in danger and will shoot. The occupant also tells the perp that he has the option to leave his residence now. It's possible this might even be recorded on the 911 call. Perp continues to advance and is shot.

What happens to the occupant? Also, what would happen if this conversation wasn't recorded on the 911 call?

Thanks.
 
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Hmm... Have someone on your mind? Lots of specifics than your typical NES 'What if' threads that pop up every other day.

INAL and INALEO but you pretty much defined a textbook self defense with deadly force scenario.
 
Does it matter? You'll do what you need to do and live with the consequences afterward. It sucks, but that's where we live.
 
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I'm not a lawyer nor a police officer. Based on my training at LFI-1 and 2, I would expect to be arrested. Hopefully my attorney would be able to get bail. The DA might take several alternative courses of action:

- convene a grand jury to determine whether to press charges.
- press charges.
- drop the case.

I would expect to spend at least ten thousand dollars defending myself even if it never goes to court. If it does go to criminal court, I would expect to spend $100k defending myself.
 
I'm not a lawyer nor a police officer. Based on my training at LFI-1 and 2, I would expect to be arrested. Hopefully my attorney would be able to get bail. The DA might take several alternative courses of action:

- convene a grand jury to determine whether to press charges.
- press charges.
- drop the case.

I would expect to spend at least ten thousand dollars defending myself even if it never goes to court. If it does go to criminal court, I would expect to spend $100k defending myself.

What if you couldn't afford that kind of money? Could you defend yourself with just your testimony and possible 911 recording?
Why would you be arrested if you're in your own home defending yourself?
 
I'm looking for information on how you as a law enforcement officer might handle a scenario. I realize few want to respond to these things, but I was hoping that some of you might enlighten me with what you use as a standard as far as whether you would arrest the "occupant of the dwelling"

C 278, s 8a

In the prosecution of a person who is an occupant of a dwelling charged with killing or injuring one who was unlawfully in said dwelling, it shall be a defense that the occupant was in his dwelling at the time of the offense and that he acted in the reasonable belief that the person unlawfully in said dwelling was about to inflict great bodily injury or death upon said occupant or upon another person lawfully in said dwelling, and that said occupant used reasonable means to defend himself or such other person lawfully in said dwelling. There shall be no duty on said occupant to retreat from such person unlawfully in said dwelling.

Scenario:

Occupant of the dwelling has a Harassment Prevention Order against someone. That someone is a martial arts expert. That someone decides to visit the person who has the RO against them. The police are called, the the person being visited (who has the RO against the perp) then goes to his bedroom (last retreat) and retrieves a shotgun.

Perp breaks a window on the door and then gains access to the home. He then finds the occupant in their bedroom with the loaded shotgun pointed at him. The occupant then informs the person that if he moves a step closer, the occupant will consider his life in danger and will shoot. The occupant also tells the perp that he has the option to leave his residence now. It's possible this might even be recorded on the 911 call. Perp continues to advance and is shot.

What happens to the occupant? Also, what would happen if this conversation wasn't recorded on the 911 call?

Thanks.

I've seen a true story on t.v. that is similar to yours. It involved an old lady with a handgun. She was with 911 the whole time. The 911 lady said that she had the right to defend herself. She kept saying that she didn't want to shoot him but he broke in and kept advancing. She had no choice!
He was drugged up on something.
 
What if you couldn't afford that kind of money? Could you defend yourself with just your testimony and possible 911 recording?
Why would you be arrested if you're in your own home defending yourself?

Hopefully, someone would take your case pro bono.

And you live in Massachusetts.
 
What if you couldn't afford that kind of money?
If you can't afford an attorney, the court will appoint one for you. The public defender will be overworked and try to get you to accept a plea bargain.

Could you defend yourself with just your testimony and possible 911 recording?
Yes, you can act as your own attorney. Afterward, your friends can refer to you using your new title: convict.

Why would you be arrested if you're in your own home defending yourself?
Because the police don't know what happened. They know that someone has been killed, and that you apparently did the killing. They've got a body. They've got your gun. They've got whatever statement you gave them, but they don't know whether that statement is correct. The police are charged with investigating homicides, and this is a homicide (though possibly justifiable).

The responding officers are not detectives and do not investigate murders. They will most likely arrest you, take you to the police station, write their reports, and let the detectives and DA sort out the mess.

Several years back, a woman in Arlington heard someone moving around on her enclosed front porch. She grabbed her gun and opened her front door. She told the intruder to leave. He moved towards her. She backed up inside her house, pointed the gun at him, and told him to leave. He laughed at her and kept coming. She shot him in the neck. He suddenly remembered an urgent appointment elsewhere. I'm not sure at what point during the proceedings that she called 911.

He was found, arrested, and hospitalized. She was arrested. She wasn't charged, but it took months for the investigation to be completed and for her to be cleared. She was represented by a good MA criminal/firearms attorney. I'm sure that representation wasn't cheap.
 
What if you couldn't afford that kind of money? Could you defend yourself with just your testimony and possible 911 recording?
Why would you be arrested if you're in your own home defending yourself?

Then you go broke or go to jail or take a plea which keeps you out of jail but makes you a prohibited person for the rest of your life.


Does it HAVE to go down that way? No, of course not, but this is MA and it's more likely to go down that way than it is any other. Work from the assumption that if you ever have to shoot someone in self defense it's going to go down like that and you'll at least be prepared for the sh**storm you're going to have to face.

Dude, you really can't be cavalier about this stuff. Even in self defense taking a human life is serious sh** and the law treats it as such. Add to that MA's climate of 'discouraging self help' and you've got your work cut out for you.
 
Then you go broke or go to jail or take a plea which keeps you out of jail but makes you a prohibited person for the rest of your life.


Does it HAVE to go down that way? No, of course not, but this is MA and it's more likely to go down that way than it is any other. Work from the assumption that if you ever have to shoot someone in self defense it's going to go down like that and you'll at least be prepared for the sh**storm you're going to have to face.
Yup. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

Dude, you really can't be cavalier about this stuff. Even in self defense taking a human life is serious sh** and the law treats it as such. Add to that MA's climate of 'discouraging self help' and you've got your work cut out for you.
Yup. If you use deadly force and the court system decides you were not justified in doing so, then you may well face a mandatory sentence of life in prison without parole.
 
Another tip: call Kevin Redinggton, and be prepared to pony up a big retainer. Meanwhile STFU.
 
There will of course be an investigation, but if the situation you described is found to be the truth, they will cut you loose with no charges. Unless of course it is an election year and the DA wants to look tough on guns.... Legally you will be all set, but in reality, you never know what is going to happen. Especially in this state. If you wind up in front of a jury, you are double effed. Good luck finding 12 people in this state that don't consider gun ownership "premeditation".
 
Here we go with the doom and gloom.

The courts issue a restraining order instructing Mr X not to go anywhere near Mr A. Mr X then breaks into Mr A's house while Mr A is home. Mr A in the process of defending himself shoots Mr X.
There's a restraining order, there's history between these people. There's breaking and entering. But all of the wizards on this site are pretty much guaranteeing that Mr A will go to jail.

ETA I forgot to add that the shooting took place in Mr A's bedroom. That's right. Mr X violates the restraining order. He broke into the home and he's now in the bedroom.
 
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Then you go broke or go to jail or take a plea which keeps you out of jail but makes you a prohibited person for the rest of your life.


Does it HAVE to go down that way? No, of course not, but this is MA and it's more likely to go down that way than it is any other. Work from the assumption that if you ever have to shoot someone in self defense it's going to go down like that and you'll at least be prepared for the sh**storm you're going to have to face.

Dude, you really can't be cavalier about this stuff. Even in self defense taking a human life is serious sh** and the law treats it as such. Add to that MA's climate of 'discouraging self help' and you've got your work cut out for you.

I am in no way trying to be cavalier about it. I do have one thing going for me in the case of the castle law....that's my babies...I will defend them no matter what and I can't think of a jury that would convict me for protecting my innocent babies. Please don't say "it's craphole mass" people have consciences.
 
Breaking and entering while someone is home becomes a home invasion. By nature, an extremely aggressive and life threatening act. The RO proves the perp knew he was not supposed to be there and poses a dangerous threat to the homes occupant who filed for it. I can't see how you wouldn't be justified in blowing his ass away as long as you legally own the weapon.
 
I am in no way trying to be cavalier about it. I do have one thing going for me in the case of the castle law....that's my babies...I will defend them no matter what and I can't think of a jury that would convict me for protecting my innocent babies. Please don't say "it's craphole mass" people have consciences.

Read our lips: MA DOESN'T HAVE A CASTLE LAW!

It's an affirmative defense. That means that when they ARREST you and PROSECUTE you, you can raise the defense at your trial and then the state has to go a little further than normally to convict you. That's a good thing but please wake up and open your eyes. Yes, defend your family - but understand that you're very likely going to go to be arrested and stand trial.
 
Here we go with the doom and gloom.

The courts issue a restraining order instructing Mr X not to go anywhere near Mr A. Mr X then breaks into Mr A's house while Mr A is home. Mr A in the process of defending himself shoots Mr X.
There's a restraining order, there's history between these people. There's breaking and entering. But all of the wizards on this site are pretty much guaranteeing that Mr A will go to jail.

ETA I forgot to add that the shooting took place in Mr A's bedroom. That's right. Mr X violates the restraining order. He broke into the home and he's now in the bedroom.

Read our lips: MA DOESN'T HAVE A CASTLE LAW!

It's an affirmative defense. That means that when they ARREST you and PROSECUTE you, you can raise the defense at your trial and then the state has to go a little further than normally to convict you. That's a good thing but please wake up and open your eyes. Yes, defend your family - but understand that you're very likely going to go to be arrested and stand trial.

Bob is right above.

If you don't have a VERY GOOD (and thus very expensive) lawyer to help defend you, you are rolling the dice and may well do hard time.

With someone like Kevin Reddington and the case laid out above, I'm 100% confident that you will walk . . . but could be close to bankrupt by that time.
 
Here we go with the doom and gloom.
Call it what you will. I've spoken with the attorney who represented the woman in Arlington about that case and I can tell you he's not cheap.

The perp was drunk at the time and was "known to police." She was properly licensed and in her own home. He trespassed in her home. She warned him to leave. He advanced on her even as she pointed her gun at him and told him to leave. His client was arrested. It took months before the DA decided not to charge her. After the DA decided not to charge her, the chief of police decided to revoke her LTC. Her attorney was able to convince him otherwise.

I don't know how much her defense cost her, but I'm sure it was thousands. It would have been much more if she had been charged. I was at a panel discussion several years ago put on by AWARE. The speakers included Kevin Reddington and another defense attorney (whose name I can't remember). Both quoted a flat rate of $100,000 for defense against a murder one charge. They said that this was a significant discount from their normal hourly rate, because murder defenses are all consuming, and if they charged their normal hourly rate then no one but a millionaire could afford a murder defense.

Will you always be arrested after using deadly force? No, but it is far more likely than not. Furthermore, most incidents are not as black and white as the scenario described in the OP.
 
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Read our lips: MA DOESN'T HAVE A CASTLE LAW!
I'll disagree with this. MA has a "Castle Law" in the original form of such laws. These laws originally just said you didn't have to retreat from your home, which is basically what MA law says.

In recent years, some states have passed what some call "Make My Day" laws, which presume that anyone who breaks into your home is a threat of death or grave bodily injury. The 1985 Colorado law was perhaps one of the first. In a bit of revisionist history, many folks are now referring to Colorado's law (and similar laws) as Castle laws.
 
I'll disagree with this. MA has a "Castle Law" in the original form of such laws. These laws originally just said you didn't have to retreat from your home, which is basically what MA law says.

In recent years, some states have passed what some call "Make My Day" laws, which presume that anyone who breaks into your home is a threat of death or grave bodily injury. The 1985 Colorado law was perhaps one of the first. In a bit of revisionist history, many folks are now referring to Colorado's law (and similar laws) as Castle laws.

Factually correct but given the current understanding of 'castle law' misleading. To the general pubilc castle alws and make my day laws are the same thing and are referred to as castle law.
 
Factually correct but given the current understanding of 'castle law' misleading. To the general pubilc castle alws and make my day laws are the same thing and are referred to as castle law.
I disagree. More states have traditional, no duty to retreat Castle Laws than Make My Day laws. Nevertheless, we're arguing semantics.
 
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Here's a little thing to blow some minds. BTW: I am not a lawyer and not giving legal advise. I am just pointing out the flow of case law and common law here to come to a logical conclusion.

My statement: The MA castle law is really NOT an affirmative defense.

First, the law.
Section 8A. In the prosecution of a person who is an occupant of a dwelling charged with killing or injuring one who was unlawfully in said dwelling, it shall be a defense that the occupant was in his dwelling at the time of the offense and that he acted in the reasonable belief that the person unlawfully in said dwelling was about to inflict great bodily injury or death upon said occupant or upon another person lawfully in said dwelling, and that said occupant used reasonable means to defend himself or such other person lawfully in said dwelling. There shall be no duty on said occupant to retreat from such person unlawfully in said dwelling.

It looks like an affirmative defense. Terraformer must be loopy this fine day.

Nope.

Now the definition of an affirmative defense.

A new fact or set of facts that operates to defeat a claim even if the facts supporting that claim are true.

Many states allow elements of the crime to be mitigated by affirmative defenses. But in doing so, they shift the burden of persuasion onto the defendant to prove they acted in self defense or to prove they were insane when committing said crime. MA case law since early on has required that ANY and ALL elements of any crime be proven beyond a reasonable doubt and that affirmative defenses that negate a claim must be proven as fact by the state as untrue or not applicable.

Now the definition of murder which is defined in common law (MA only specifies degrees which makes it a hybrid definition)
common law said:
The elements of common law murder are:
  • the killing
  • of a human being
  • by another human being
  • with malice aforethought
and malice is defined as one of the following
  • Intent to kill,
  • Intent to inflict grievous bodily harm short of death,
  • Reckless indifference to an unjustifiably high risk to human life (sometimes described as an "abandoned and malignant heart"), or
  • Intent to commit a dangerous felony (the "felony-murder" doctrine).

Aforethought is premeditation.

Assault and battery is defined in common law as well.

common law said:
Assault -- Common law definition

  • The apparent, present ability to carry out;
  • An unlawful attempt;
  • To commit a violent injury;
  • Upon another.

Assault with a deadly weapon -- Common law definition (plus definition of a deadly weapon)
  • See above.

Battery -- Common law definition
  • an unlawful application of force
  • to the person of another
  • resulting in either bodily injury or an offensive touching.

There are two common themes in those definitions. Premeditation and lawfulness. Can self defense be claimed if you killed someone in a premeditated fashion? No, self defense is something that is happens at the time of the offense. If you thought out the killing of someone, as have the OP in his little scenario, then it ceases to be self defense. In other words, if the person was truly engaged in self defense, lawlessness and premeditation can not be proved. Additionally, there is no set of extra facts that defeats the claim because the claim is not provable.

Now, since MA uses common law definitions for those crimes, they also use common precedent and there self defense is considered a core human right and is therefore presumptively lawful. This was affirmed in Heller/McDonald when they affirmed that the second amendment is intimately tied to the core natural right of self defense.

To wit:
Heller said:
The District’s total ban on handgun possession in the home amounts to a prohibition on an entire class of “arms” that Americans overwhelmingly choose for the lawful purpose of self-defense. Under any of the standards of scrutiny the Court has applied to enumerated constitutional rights, this prohibition—in the place where the importance of the lawful defense of self, family, and property is most acute—would fail constitutional muster. Similarly, the requirement that any lawful firearm in the home be disassembled or bound by a trigger lock makes it impossible for citizens to use arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense and is hence unconstitutional.

Common Law Self defense is defined as:
Use of force is justified when a person reasonably believes that it is necessary for the defense of oneself or another against the immediate use of unlawful force. However, a person must use no more force than appears reasonably necessary in the circumstances.

Force likely to cause death or great bodily harm is justified in self-defense only if a person reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm.

And since self defense is a core human right it must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt because of this decision in Snyder v. Massachusetts (which is featured in a chain of decisions culminating in Patterson v. NY).

Snyder v. Massachusetts said:
The Commonwealth of Massachusetts is free to regulate the procedure of its courts in accordance with its own conception of policy and fairness unless, in so doing, it offends some principle of justice so rooted in the traditions and conscience of our people as to be ranked as fundamental.

Therefore, it is up to the state to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the person claiming to have acted in self defense did not do so.

Don't believe me?
Check out the approved jury instructions for self defense.
http://www.mass.gov/courts/courtsan...s/criminal/pdf/9260-defenses-self-defense.pdf

As a result, the ONLY thing needed in MA's castle defense is:
Better MA Castle law said:
Section 8A. There shall be no duty on a lawful occupant of a dwelling to retreat from any person unlawfully in said dwelling.

This here is functionally equivalent to what is there now and would have no impact on any case if this was magically changed to my abbreviated wording today. In my opinion, the way it is written today is making it easy for judges and ADAs to charge people on the day of absent thorough investigations. It is misleading but I suspect Governor King wrote it this way in order to slip it by the legislature. Most legislators don't know the law and they probably thought they were passing an affirmative defense self-defense statute but ultimately they were not. They passed an affirmative defense self defense statute that is overruled by governing case law and then added a SEPARATE clause at the end. That clause, I don't believe, is constructively tied to the "it shall be a defense" language. But even if one disagrees with my opinion there, it doesn't matter. MA criminal procedure is clear that the state MUST PROVE all facts and elements of the crime. Therefore, MA has no affirmative defense statute but simply a self-defense statute that exempts those engaged in self defense from having to retreat.


Think of it this way, affirmative defenses allow someone's culpability to change based on their state of mind. Self defense is not a state of mind, nor is it a justification. It negates elements of the crime thereby causing people to be INNOCENT of the crime and not simply just less culpable (as in the case of insanity defenses). I know this is splitting hairs but until we start talking about SD as a core human right, we will continue to play into the hands of those who seek to negate that right.

The simple act of claiming that SD is a "justification" puts one accused of it on the defensive. This is not insanity, this is a right.

My 2 cents. YMMV.
 
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Will you always be arrested after using deadly force? No, but it is far more likely than not. Furthermore, most incidents are not as black and white as the scenario described in the OP.

That's my point. The OP's case is black and white(at least to the extent that there is such a thing).
If I read your post correctly the case in Arlington had no restraining order, had no breaking and entering and in fact was on the porch not in a bedroom. I understand there will be consequences to a shoot but the OP is pretty much text book.
 
Is it possible that the person would be arrested and then questioned before booking - thereby avoiding the lifetime arrest record?
 
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