MA: Identifying Pre-Ban Glock Mags

[WPDC13]

The ambi has cuts on both sides, as well as a cut in the middle just above the two.

 

[calsdad]

The ambi has cuts on both sides, as well as a cut in the middle just above the two.

I'm getting conflicting information on that. I've had a couple of people PM me to tell me that the mags I posted pictures of - are POST ban.

Does anybody REALLY know the answer here?

 

[drgrant]

From what I remember seeing in my internet travels - the ambi cut would be on the right side (looking at the mag from the front) - not the left side cut like this mag?

View attachment 31095


View attachment 31096

Yeah, those are standard cut mags.

This is what a new Glock mag looks with BOTH ambi cuts. This particular mag is a 10 round G26 mag but the others look exactly the same.

There was an interim version before this with just the rectangle on the top, but now there is also a cut opposite the regular mag. My guess is that Glock had used the top one before for their "real" ambi release like they used on some versions of the 21SF, but now the 2nd cut is just for reversing the mag release levers on the Gen4 guns. I am surprised they bothered putting the rectangle on top at all, as I've never seen something like a G17 that had a true ambi release on it. My guess is that they made a specification for this cut and just decided to leave it on there going forward in case they ever revisited the idea.

A note here is that there is nothing stopping someone from taking a preban mag and making these cuts themselves, although it'd probably be somewhat difficult to do unless a person is really crafty with cutting plastic with great precision.

-Mike

 

[beaker]

+1

Glock told the MA powers that be that there is no way for them to help identify pre- ban mags. I don't understand why people are so determined to provide information via these types of threads that indicate one way or the other because guess what, you just cannot tell unless it has LEO markings or ambi- notches.

I agree, the magazine thing needs to go... as the regs are presently
written, it's basically unenforceable anyways.... with a few exceptions... eg
LEO marked mags, or having hicaps for a gun that didn't exist before the ban
was passed into law- Those would be trivially easy for a prosecutor to
use to put some hurt on you. But what are they going to do about the
other magazines.... are they going to subpeona a glock factory worker from
austria to come in and testify as to when he thinks the magazine was
made? This is why I mentioned the AFTE. If I was a member, I could
get into their database to see if forensics/evidence people have any reliable
way of determining when a magazine was actually made.

At least on the federal side, the burden of proof was placed on the
goverment to say that you had magazines which weren't exempt from
the ban. And I believe the requirement was that it has the LEO markings
or a serial number of some sort. Since the MA AWB is virtually a copy
of the old federal one, wouldn't the burden of proof requirement
be the same?

I think it would do GOAL well to even suggest to the legislative types that
they change the regulation to one of "unlawful possesion" like that with the
body armor. EG, if a high capacity magazine is used in commision of a
crime, it's some kind of tack on charge, but lawful use (eg lawful self
defense, sport/target use) is permitted. This way the idea is more
saleable to the cronies that want to act "tough on crime" but it still
allows law abiding citizens to posess/use normal magazines.

-Mike

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

 

[drgrant]

I'm getting conflicting information on that. I've had a couple of people PM me to tell me that the mags I posted pictures of - are POST ban.

Does anybody REALLY know the answer here?

There are a bunch of nerds on GT and other sites that assert that anything with a "high caliber marking" is postban. My belief is that this is false. Patrick Sweeney ( a dude that wrote a major Glock book) and others assert that there are preban mags with high caliber markings. There was a window before the ban went into effect where the caliber marking was moved in preparation for adding the LE wording that went below the caliber marking during the ban. (In other words, there were people walking around before September in1994 who had high caliber marking, "large capacity" Glock mags in their possession.

If you call Glock Legal and pitch this to them, they will agree with my interpretation, or more likely they will blow you off saying they have no way of identifying the provenance of the mags. They do this to DAs from anti gun states as well- eg, the official Glock position is that they have no way of identifying their magazines.

-Mike

 

[calsdad]

Yeah, those are standard cut mags.

This is what a new Glock mag looks with BOTH ambi cuts. This particular mag is a 10 round G26 mag but the others look exactly the same.

There was an interim version before this with just the rectangle on the top, but now there is also a cut opposite the regular mag. My guess is that Glock had used the top one before for their "real" ambi release like they used on some versions of the 21SF, but now the 2nd cut is just for reversing the mag release levers on the Gen4 guns. I am surprised they bothered putting the rectangle on top at all, as I've never seen something like a G17 that had a true ambi release on it. My guess is that they made a specification for this cut and just decided to leave it on there going forward in case they ever revisited the idea.

A note here is that there is nothing stopping someone from taking a preban mag and making these cuts themselves, although it'd probably be somewhat difficult to do unless a person is really crafty with cutting plastic with great precision.

-Mike

So does anybody know when the ambi CUTS (more than one!) - were phased in?

I'm guessing the progression was something like this:

pre-ban mags - one cut on the "left" side when looking at the mag from the front.

Ban mags - printed with lettering saying "LEO only" (or whatever it said)

ambi - cut came in either during the ban period, or after ..... so -

Mags that are not marked "LEO Only" and have the ambi cut - are definitively post ban.

 

[calsdad]

BTW - Thanks again for all the info you guys have provided. I keep pointing people to this thread who have been asking me questions about Glock mags.

 

[drgrant]

So does anybody know when the ambi CUTS (more than one!) - were phased in?

Right around the time the fed ban expired in 2004, none of the mags had ambi cuts. There were a bunch of square notch, high caliber marking mags out there, before and after the ban expired. (as well as a boatload of LE marked mags going for cheap money, because nobody wanted them, even in the free states).

Ambi cuts started being produced several years ago and the new type of "dual" ambi cut (shown in the pic I posted) has only been around since the Gen4s have been out. (Late 2009). The "single box" ambi cut appeared around the time the G21SF was announced (2007 or so? ) At first it was only on G21 mags but then the cancer spread to all the other mags, because Glock was thinking it was going to put ambis in new guns down the road if the concept took off on the G21. (Of course, it didn't, and it was a gigantic failure, but that's another story for another day. )

-Mike

 

[Len-2A Training]

The center cut-out came about when the G21SF hit the market.

AFAIK, the ambi-cut for reversing the safety didn't happen until the Gen4 guns were released. So this is even more recent.

It is anything other than the above which can't be ID'd (assuming no "LE/Mil Only" marking) by us or Glock-US definitively as "post-ban" and thus illegal in MA.

For the "Doubting Thomases" on the high caliber marking issue being pre-ban (this is the most commonly espoused mis-information out there on Glock mags), I suggest you pick up Pat Sweeney's Glock book published during the Fed Ban where he described this situation.

 

[calsdad]

The center cut-out came about when the G21SF hit the market.

AFAIK, the ambi-cut for reversing the safety didn't happen until the Gen4 guns were released. So this is even more recent.

It is anything other than the above which can't be ID'd (assuming no "LE/Mil Only" marking) by us or Glock-US definitively as "post-ban" and thus illegal in MA.

For the "Doubting Thomases" on the high caliber marking issue being pre-ban (this is the most commonly espoused mis-information out there on Glock mags), I suggest you pick up Pat Sweeney's Glock book published during the Fed Ban where he described this situation.

Is it this one:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Digest-Book-Glock-Edition/dp/0896896420


2nd edition - published in 2008. I'm going to order one - just because of the sheer number of people sending me PM's and emails telling me the mags I posted pictures of are post ban. If I have a copy I can scan in the page with the mag info and send it out to people to refute the mis-information.

 

[Len-2A Training]

calsdad, that's the book. Mine is the 2003 Edition (during the Fed ban). I couldn't find the exact quote in the book when I posted earlier today although I'm pretty sure that I quoted it before. Also check with Matt Mederios (mgr of AFS) as he owns a G21 with high marking, pre-ban hi-cap bought during the Fed ban as well.

 

[Reptile]

I have the book.

Motherload of magazine information.

I did some in depth word for word studying of Sweeney's work...

As Sweeney explains, during the era right before LEO high caps, there are 2 variants of "notches". Square and "Lazy U".
Lazy U is like a U but the curves are angled cuts - not smooth curves. All LEO mags have the Lazy U. Thousands of pre ban mags were also made with a Lazy U. They also had high caliber markings.

The LEO mags also had another new feature. It is the tapered sides toward the top of the mag. Just like modern mags, all LEO mags had that.

All tapered mags also have high caliber markings.

You can legally own a Lazy U mag - with high caber markings and no tapered sides.
You can own any square notch mag.
There is no such thing as a low caliber marking mag with tapered sides.
Look at the picture on post #284 to see what tapered sides are. The last 3 mags - starting with the LEO mag are tapered.
If you have a tapered high cap mag you are in violation.

Will you get busted for that?
Not sure anyone has ever been charged just for having a post ban high cap without being having additional charges.

 

[Thom]

I know it's illegal to modify a 10 round mag, but I have a friend with a g17 (9mm) and he uses a g22 (.40) 10 round mag in it with a 9mm follower. I believe he said he can get 13+1. He had to "tune" the mag, (bent the metal liner at the top very slightly to hold the smaller round, but you cant tell at all.) Just wondering if this is illegal also.

 

[Reptile]

I know it's illegal to modify a 10 round mag, but I have a friend with a g17 (9mm) and he uses a g22 (.40) 10 round mag in it with a 9mm follower. I believe he said he can get 13+1. He had to "tune" the mag, (bent the metal liner at the top very slightly to hold the smaller round, but you cant tell at all.) Just wondering if this is illegal also.

No doubt it is illegal. (unable to quote the law right now)

Nice angle though- a cop will never know it is hi-cap because it only has 10 round capacity witness holes (the holes that show the ammo through the hole in the back).

I would not bet my life on a hacked mag.

Much better off getting a real pre ban and not have to worry about the law or a feeding failure.

 

[RobertPaulson]

I don't know if this has been covered on here, I couldn't find anything, does anyone know anything about the Korean made Glock 18 33 rounders?

 

[Reptile]

I don't know if this has been covered on here, I couldn't find anything, does anyone know anything about the Korean made Glock 18 33 rounders?

Totally Illegal.

All Korean production began long after the 1994 AWB went in place.

All Korean mags are illegal. I doubt they make 10 rounders either.

 

[Rider]

Edit: I apologize, now that I think of it, the mags may have been ambi-cut.

 

[paracarry]

After looking at most of these posts and seeing new hi-cap mags for sale in mass gun shops. I have decided that the way the law reads is this. You can buy Glock Hi-Cap magazines pre-ban or post-ban as long as you buy them on a Tuesday on an even numbered day in a month that has the letter R in it. That makes as much sense as anything else in Mass.

 

[steve8140]

Heres a interesting question.....
I know all about the pre-ban post-ban mag dilema, but what about rebuilding magazines?

If im reading the law correctly, it states that you can rebuild broken or worn parts. So if I go online to say XXXXX as an example, I can buy a hi-capacity magazine as long as I also buy it as a rebuild kit for a $1 charge on top of the magazine.

The rebuild kit is a simple kit where they take said magazine and dissassemble it into pieces and then ship it to you as a rebuild. Once I receive it in the mail, I can basically put it together and now I have a brand new magazine.

So this pre/post ban thing is just a load of crap. I would personnaly save all receipts stating that in was a rebuild kit for my records,I also have a few unreliable worn out magazines i'm thinking about doing this with and save the worn pieces to prove if ever needed. but again, now you have brand new hi-cap magazines that are completely legal to own and use for a very cheap price compared to the "stick it to the ban states" theory.

Again, this is all based upon me reading the law correctly but I see no problem with this. Anyone else agree with me, reasons pro or con?

 

[drgrant]

Heres a interesting question.....
I know all about the pre-ban post-ban mag dilema, but what about rebuilding magazines?

If im reading the law correctly, it states that you can rebuild broken or worn parts. So if I go online to say XXXXX as an example, I can buy a hi-capacity magazine as long as I also buy it as a rebuild kit for a $1 charge on top of the magazine.

The rebuild kit is a simple kit where they take said magazine and dissassemble it into pieces and then ship it to you as a rebuild. Once I receive it in the mail, I can basically put it together and now I have a brand new magazine.

So this pre/post ban thing is just a load of crap. I would personnaly save all receipts stating that in was a rebuild kit for my records,I also have a few unreliable worn out magazines i'm thinking about doing this with and save the worn pieces to prove if ever needed. but again, now you have brand new hi-cap magazines that are completely legal to own and use for a very cheap price compared to the "stick it to the ban states" theory.

Again, this is all based upon me reading the law correctly but I see no problem with this. Anyone else agree with me, reasons pro or con?

Stop outing vendors, please. Read the laws and make your own decision, there is no case law on mag rebuilds, etc. The only thing to go by is that the feds allowed mag rebuilds under the fed AWB. There's no evidence one way or the other to know whether MA will "honor" that or not.

-Mike

 

[Kisspik002]

I'm a Leo and am allowed to have hi cap mags, but when I'm not working I carry per ban or 10 round mags. It's just not worth it legal wise IMO.

 

[stinx]

I too am a leo and as long as no ones shooting at me or any other innocent's I can care less what they have

 

[Reptile]

Stop outing vendors, please. Read the laws and make your own decision, there is no case law on mag rebuilds, etc. The only thing to go by is that the feds allowed mag rebuilds under the fed AWB. There's no evidence one way or the other to know whether MA will "honor" that or not.

-Mike

If I recall, the "body" or tube of the mag is considered the magazine. You could replace all the other parts as much as you want. You can not replace the body because that would be in effect a new mag. Of course there is no case law.

Keep in mind that in Massachusetts, the AG tried to get Glock to tell them if particular mags were pre ban for a criminal case. They refused to tell since they themselves could not be sure. You can be that the new ambi notch or newer yet 3rd notch for the 4th gen Glocks are a dead givaway of being post ban. If the prosecutor was out to get you, your would be toast.

Buy some nice pre bans for carry and use 10 rounders for training since they can be replaced if they get ruined.

 

[Len-2A Training]

If I recall, the "body" or tube of the mag is considered the magazine. You could replace all the other parts as much as you want. You can not replace the body because that would be in effect a new mag. Of course there is no case law.

You are "recalling" this from the Fed Ban where the BATFE clarified what you could and could not legally do.

NO such determination has ever been made in MA and nobody in EOPS is qualified technically to make any determinations about any part of the hi-cap ban or AWB. None with any gun knowledge are hired there and so they have no clue what you are asking about if you do query them . . . as well as no legal authority to do so.

So we are "on our own" to make a case if/when prosecuted. It'll cost a fortune and you have a 50/50 chance of winning at best in MA courts.

 

[wacky_doug]

You know what's funny...beside the hi cap restrictions, our state wide AWB and the AGs firearms list. MA gun laws aren't that bad.

Try using one of these smileys so we know whether or not you're serious: etc

MA has some of the worst gun laws in the country.

 

[Reptile]

You are "recalling" this from the Fed Ban where the BATFE clarified what you could and could not legally do.

NO such determination has ever been made in MA and nobody in EOPS is qualified technically to make any determinations about any part of the hi-cap ban or AWB. None with any gun knowledge are hired there and so they have no clue what you are asking about if you do query them . . . as well as no legal authority to do so.

So we are "on our own" to make a case if/when prosecuted. It'll cost a fortune and you have a 50/50 chance of winning at best in MA courts.

Thanks for the clarification.

Makes me think that paying $140 for a brand new square notch pre ban is not such a bad deal.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Thanks for the clarification.

Makes me think that paying $140 for a brand new square notch pre ban is not such a bad deal.

I hope you are being facetious! $140 is highway robbery or I'm sitting on a fortune in old mags for various guns!

 

[Reptile]

I hope you are being facetious! $140 is highway robbery or I'm sitting on a fortune in old mags for various guns!

9mm pre bans that are square notch drop free fully metal lined (NOT U notch) command a premium.
If you can find them in brand new condition- even more of a premium.

The cost $125 each during the ban and are worth that much if not more in my opinion.

In Mass and NY- they are still valuable. It is rare to find a 19 year old mag in new condition.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Unless I was going to put it up in a glass frame as a museum exhibit, my stuff gets used and no way is worth that kind of money!! Each to their own, but most of my guns and mags are bought used and as long as they weren't abused, that's fine by me.

 

[drgrant]

The cost $125 each during the ban and are worth that much if not more in my opinion.

Even then only a sucker would have paid that much. I never remember them being more than $70, which was, and still is, highway robbery.

-Mike