MA Resident buying and keeping in maine

[rif9]

Hi all,

I'm a MA resident but go to school in Maine... I'd like to buy a rifle to use for target practice in Maine. I'm not licensed in MA, but I live in Maine for most of the year.

So, would I need to change my residency in order to purchase in Maine, or can I buy the gun as an unlicensed MA resident? And if I need to change my residency, is getting a ME ID enough or would I need to get a new license?

Thanks for the help.

 

[Kevlar]

Welcome to NES!

The BATFE has ruled that as a student, you are a resident of ME while at school, and as such can purchase rifles/shotguns (subject to ME laws)...

27 CFR 178.11: MEANING OF TERMS

An out-of-State college student may establish residence in a State by residing and maintaining a home in a college dormitory or in a location off-campus during the school term.

ATF Rul. 80-21

"State of residence" is defined by regulation in 27 CFR 178.11 as the State in which an individual regularly resides or maintains a home. The regulation also provides an example of an individual who maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. The individual regularly resides in State X except for the summer months and in State Y for the summer months of the year. The regulation states that during the time the individual actually resides in State X he is a resident of State X, and during the time he actually resides in State Y he is a resident of State Y.

Applying the above example to out-of-State college students it is held, that during the time the students actually reside in a college dormitory or at an off-campus location they are considered residents of the State where the dormitory or off-campus home is located. During the time out-of-State college students actually reside in their home State they are considered residents of their home State.

[ATFB 1980-4 25]

http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-80-21.pdf

Be aware, that as you are unlicensed in MA, you cannot bring any guns into MA.

 

[rif9]

Thanks!

Is there a standard procedure for proving you're a student? I feel like it might be easier to go for the Maine ID anyways...

 

[Kevlar]

Is there a standard procedure for proving you're a student?

Not sure, but I don't believe so.

Probably best to speak with a FFL in ME, as they are the final arbiter of what constitutes acceptable documentation.

 

[Billsail]

A friend, I was with him at the time, bought a rifle at a small shop in ME with nothing more than his MA drivers license. The FFL said he could care less where the gun went, once it left his shop. It was up to the purchaser to make sure all laws were followed. The larger stores, such as KTP may have different requirements.

 

[RichM]

When I purchased a 10/22 at Cabela's in ME, they required my DL for ID. Once they saw I was from MA, they confirmed that the 10/22 met MA's AWB laws, and asked for my FID / LTC.

I would bet that any "big box" stores, as well as stores near the southern border, will have more restrictive policies. A smaller shop may be more reasonable. I would print out the ATF's FAQ linked above, and be prepared to show college ID and maybe a current tuition bill or grade / class schedule printout to demonstrate that you truly are a college student / part-time resident.

... Not that I agree that you should have to present your papers, but that's what'll be more likely to get you your rifle.

 

[appraiser]

RIF9, I would suggest you either get a MA FID card, or declare residency in Maine somehow, by getting a Maine DL.

You may find a FFL willing to sell you a gun on a MA ID, or no ID, but even though the Feds say it is OK, the FFL has no way of knowing if you are going to illegally bring the gun back to MA after the sale, and that kind of puts them on shaky ground.

So by one rule you are a Maine resident, and by another rule the FFL has to comply with rules for your "home state" which could be argued is MA, so the gun would have to meet MA AWB/FID eligibility and you would have to be licensed in some way shape or form.

So pick a state, and play by their rules.

 

[Billsail]

If the gun stays in ME, and he stores it, sells it, or otherwise gives up possesion (or not), before he returns to MA, he is good to go, and can possess whatever he wants, as long as he lives there. A ME FFL only has to comply with ME laws, and of course Federal laws.

ETA: He is selling it to a ME resident, by way of "student residency", when all is said and done, anyway.

 

[mike93lx]

You may find a FFL willing to sell you a gun on a MA ID, or no ID, but even though the Feds say it is OK, the FFL has no way of knowing if you are going to illegally bring the gun back to MA after the sale, and that kind of puts them on shaky ground.

Why would this put the FFL on "shaky ground"? There is nothing illegal going on in the transaction. It is not the FFL's problem to worry about where the gun is going to be taken after the sale.

 

[drgrant]

If you don't have an MA LTC you will not be able to buy an AR in ME as a nonresident. You'll either need to dump MA residency or get licensed in MA. Frankly if you don't have a license
in MA it will probably be easier for you to dump residency, particularly given that you are in ME most of the year anyways.

The other problem is in free states 98% of the guns aren't MA legal, so they're supposed to c-block you on that end, too, although that can often be worked around.

This is only because of a bunch of unconstitutional BS in federal gun law. I didn't say it made any sense.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

Why would this put the FFL on "shaky ground"? There is nothing illegal going on in the transaction. It is not the FFL's problem to worry about where the gun is going to be taken after the sale.

It is, actually, if you read federal law. Federal law states that the transaction must be legal in both the state it's occuring in and the buyer's state of residence. I feel this BS would fall if it was ever seriously challenged in court (and it may fall in the next few years, if certain court cases get pushed or the feds preemptively move to dump the regs, which they might do instead of a court telling them to do it. )

-Mike

 

[appraiser]

OK lets look at the theoretical here, if according the Federal law, you are a resident in the state where you plop your head on a pillow on any given night, what is keeping every person from criminal intent to go to ... lets use Vermont as an example, walk in the door of the local FFL, and with their best (insert sh*thole MA city here) accent pull out a receipt from the local Motel 5 and buy a gun of their choice, and promptly return to (insert name of aforementioned sh*thole) where the gun will be used for less than legal purposes?

What protects the FFL from getting hung out to dry when 6 of his guns are picked up in a gang sweep in Springfield?

 

[drgrant]

OK lets look at the theoretical here, if according the Federal law, you are a resident in the state where you plop your head on a pillow on any given night, what is keeping every person from criminal intent to go to ... lets use Vermont as an example, walk in the door of the local FFL, and with their best (insert sh*thole MA city here) accent pull out a receipt from the local Motel 5 and buy a gun of their choice, and promptly return to (insert name of aforementioned sh*thole) where the gun will be used for less than legal purposes?

What protects the FFL from getting hung out to dry when 6 of his guns are picked up in a gang sweep in Springfield?

No FFL with a brain is going to accept a Motel 6 receipt as an indicator of residency, starting with the fact that there is a bunch of accepted indicators by fed law, and that sure ain't one of them.

There are lots of straw buyers though that do that kind of crap with better credentials, and the FFL is protected because the credentials they collected comply with federal law, and they conducted the NICS check, etc.

-Mike

 

[appraiser]

TY DrGrant, I always appreciate your insight.

 

[rif9]

Thanks for the input... I think I'm going to go for the ME state ID... not the driver's license because I want to keep my MA one; hopefully that won't be a problem...

 

[PatMcD]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is no federal law that prohibits a FFL from selling any long-gun to somebody from out of state. There are basically no gun laws up here besides Federal.
It also may be different with Cabela's, Dick's (national chains), and KTP, etc., but there is no small gunshop up here that has any idea what MA laws are as far as what is legal down there. In Maine, if it's a long-gun, you have valid ID with a street address, you've got the money, and you pass the instant nics-check, you are walking out with any kind of rifle/ shotgun you want.

 

[HTRN]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is no federal law that prohibits a FFL from selling any long-gun to somebody from out of state. There are basically no gun laws up here besides Federal.
It also may be different with Cabela's, Dick's (national chains), and KTP, etc., but there is no small gunshop up here that has any idea what MA laws are as far as what is legal down there. In Maine, if it's a long-gun, you have valid ID with a street address, you've got the money, and you pass the instant nics-check, you are walking out with any kind of rifle/ shotgun you want.

IIRC, if he buys in a state other than one in which he resides, the long gun must be legal for him to own and possess in both states.

So, if he has no fid or ltc, but has a MA id, he cannot buy a gun in any state per federal law.

If he is a ME resident with id, he can buy anything legal in ME.

 

[PatMcD]

IIRC, if he buys in a state other than one in which he resides, the long gun must be legal for him to own and possess in both states.So, if he has no fid or ltc, but has a MA id, he cannot buy a gun in any state per federal law.

If he is a ME resident with id, he can buy anything legal in ME.

That must be on him and not the FFL. I know for a fact that the FFL's have absolutely no idea what is or isn't legal in all 50 states.

 

[Len-2A Training]

IIRC, if he buys in a state other than one in which he resides, the long gun must be legal for him to own and possess in both states.

So, if he has no fid or ltc, but has a MA id, he cannot buy a gun in any state per federal law.

If he is a ME resident with id, he can buy anything legal in ME.

Per Fed Law, his college ID and actual proof of attending that college/residence in ME is all he needs to meet the law. He can be a dual resident just like someone on military active duty. Just because MA REFUSES to recognize this (for other reasons) does not mean that most other states are as stupid and arrogant.

That must be on him and not the FFL. I know for a fact that the FFL's have absolutely no idea what is or isn't legal in all 50 states.

EVERY FFL gets a book with their FFL (and updated every few years) that lists the pertinent state laws for all 50 states (58 for Obots). The fact that most FFLs will never open it won't be a defense if BATFE comes "a knockin'". [And I can attest from experience in MA, NH and ME that most FFLs have no clue about the laws relative to their industry. That ignorance was a motivating force in my creating the MA gun laws seminar (see link in sig line).]

In this particular case MA law is irrelevant and indeed it is on the student not to bring the wrong guns into MA or any guns/ammo until he gets his proper MA license.

 

[HTRN]

Per Fed Law, his college ID and actual proof of attending that college/residence in ME is all he needs to meet the law.

Thank you for elaborating on that point.

 

[NinerMaine]

I do not see why you would need a ME ID. The Fed law is very clear as stated already. As a full time student in residence in ME, you are considered a resident of ME by the ATF. You can buy whatever is legal for any other ME resident to buy.

Without being a full time resident student in ME, you would then have to follow the law for non-residents buying a long gun from an out of state FFL. In that case, you can only buy what is legal in MA to own with whatever permits you are required to have to own guns in MA. In your case, this non-resident law is not applicable to you, because for purposes of the ATF you are a resident of ME.

But there are two issues you must be aware of. One is that as a student resident of ME you cannot buy a pre-ban configured newly made AR and then take it back to MA with you. That would be on you and not the FFL. This would be an easy problem to solve. You must have friends in ME who live in ME and who you trust. They can simply hold your non- MA compliant guns for you in ME. That would be perfectly legal per ME laws. If after college you want to move back to MA, you will have to sell these guns or just come up and visit them at your friends house.

The second problem I foresee is convincing an FFL that you are a ME resident per the ATF. What paperwork you will need to prove that is the case I am not sure. I also bet that there are FFL's here in ME who are not sure either and will therefore not sell you a gun on you MA DL. I know of a FFL who will not sell any long guns to MA residents because he does not want to take a risk at making a mistake about what is legal and not legal and what permits need to be met in MA. I am sure that if you call around to all the FFL's near you and ask, you will most likely find someone who will be willing to learn or already knows how this would work.

Good luck.....

 

[rif9]

Yeah, I think that given that I'd have to prove my residency I'll just suck up the $5 and trip to the registry to get a ME state ID... make buying ammo easier too I imagine. I'm planning on giving some friends from Maine my fun after I graduate-- however, if they don't want to take it, any thoughts on easy ways of selling it? Do big chains in Maine buy back used guns?

 

[Len-2A Training]

rif9, good move on getting the ME ID.

Typically you'll get very little for your guns from any gun shop, usually ~50% of what they feel they can sell them for.

Better to pay the $21 here to "go green" and advertise them on NES.

Second best is put them on consignment at a gun shop, that way you only lose typically 15-18% on the sale. You can do that and move to MA, so it's not a big problem. Consignment just means that you have to wait for your money.

 

[Jose]

Why would you move back?

 

[rif9]

So, still waiting for my state ID, but...

I was in LL Bean today and figured I'd ask the gun salesman about what works for proving residency. Told him I'm a full time student in ME, legal ME resident awaiting ID, from MA (no LTC), with a MA driver's license. He immediately lost his cool and started yelling about dual residency and that it would be illegal for him to sell to me because I had a MA diver's license. He then started threatening me that I was committing a felony by telling him I wasn't from MA, even as I just calmly explained that I have a MA driver's license but am a full time student and resident in ME. With him boiling over and acting like I was about to hold him up for a gun, I tried to reassure him that I wasn't even there to purchase but ultimately had to just leave. Apparently not the store to go to for either helpful information or friendly service--or, from what I know so far, accurate interpretation of the law...

 

[PatMcD]

Yeah,.....Bean's is basically a fishing store that just happens to hold an FFL.

 

[drgrant]

So, still waiting for my state ID, but...

I was in LL Bean today and figured I'd ask the gun salesman about what works for proving residency. Told him I'm a full time student in ME, legal ME resident awaiting ID, from MA (no LTC), with a MA driver's license. He immediately lost his cool and started yelling about dual residency and that it would be illegal for him to sell to me because I had a MA diver's license. He then started threatening me that I was committing a felony by telling him I wasn't from MA, even as I just calmly explained that I have a MA driver's license but am a full time student and resident in ME. With him boiling over and acting like I was about to hold him up for a gun, I tried to reassure him that I wasn't even there to purchase but ultimately had to just leave. Apparently not the store to go to for either helpful information or friendly service--or, from what I know so far, accurate interpretation of the law...

Well, you learned lesson #1 the hard way. Never overwhelm a dealer with info that they don't need to know. Every FFL I know will turn people away that do this, just because it smells bad. Even if you know you are legally in the right, keep things simple. The moment you come in going "My name is joe smoe and I live in 3 different places but I'm really an ME resident blah blah blah" pretty much sets up the "fail' flag. This isn't just a gun thing, either. For example I used to work at a computer store. Once some guy came in and started asking 9000 questions about software licensing. Questions that nobody ever asks. We sold only legit software, but we more or less politely kicked the guy out because he was a pain in the ass, and the deductive reasoning is anyone asking that many questions, is either a LEO, fed, some spy from the BSA, or someone who is going to be a problem. Not saying this is "you" per se, but put yourself in the other guy's shoes for a minute.

FTR I think the guy in this case completely overreacted to you. Most good shops aren't going to tear your head off
like that. That's just rude on their part.

Same thing with things like purchases which are arguably legal (eg, a gift exemption) but may be smelled as a straw by a dumb dealer.

Bean's is not exactly a good place to buy a gun, anyways. Stick to the clothes/boots in there.

BTW, without an ME ID of some sort, showing residency, most larger dealers are going to turn you away. There are some which understand dual residency but they're not going to come out and advertise that fact, either.

-Mike

 

[Len-2A Training]

So, still waiting for my state ID, but...

I was in LL Bean today and figured I'd ask the gun salesman about what works for proving residency. Told him I'm a full time student in ME, legal ME resident awaiting ID, from MA (no LTC), with a MA driver's license. He immediately lost his cool and started yelling about dual residency and that it would be illegal for him to sell to me because I had a MA diver's license. He then started threatening me that I was committing a felony by telling him I wasn't from MA, even as I just calmly explained that I have a MA driver's license but am a full time student and resident in ME. With him boiling over and acting like I was about to hold him up for a gun, I tried to reassure him that I wasn't even there to purchase but ultimately had to just leave. Apparently not the store to go to for either helpful information or friendly service--or, from what I know so far, accurate interpretation of the law...

LL Bean (Freeport) is the worst excuse for a gun store that I've ever been in. STRICTLY FUDD guns . . . "if it ain't for hunting we don't carry it!" I stopped in that store last Summer had a nice conversation with the gun manager who agrees with me . . . corporate won't let him sell any handguns or non-hunting guns/ammo. I don't even think that they sold .22LR ammo there.

Yeah,.....Bean's is basically a fishing store that just happens to hold an FFL.

I fully agree , , , along with Mike's comments.

To the OP . . . never mention that you are from MA at any non-MA store, it's just asking for trouble. If you have to, show your ME ID and just tell them you don't drive!

 

[NinerMaine]

I have to agree with everything said already about Beans. The guy was rude and a dufus for his reaction. However, his over reaction might have been to the fear that the Governor of NYC sent you up with a hidden camera to try and get Beans to sell a gun illegally. Who knows?

Next time you are in Freeport, just skip Bean's and keep going North on Route 1 to C&R Trading Post. They have a good selection of guns and are a hell of a lot friendlier.

 

[hpm]

...To the OP . . . never mention that you are from MA at any non-MA store, it's just asking for trouble.

Except if you are far enough away from New England - it can be very entertaining.
I bought some mace at a gun store last year in Santa Fe, NM and the store policy was that you have to show your DL when paying with CC...

Once I got my Mass. DL out the sales guys started asking questions about gun laws...left the store 20 minutes later...leaving all in disbelief, shaking their heads after they heard my story about what we are dealing with here