MA resident purchasing at NH or VT gun show

[boatman]

Couldn't find the answer to this, if there has been a thread, just point me that way....

Very confused on this.

If I am at a NH or VT gun show, and purchase a gun privately there, where I don't think they have to register it like we do here with a pin, is there a record of that sale?

Can I then bring the gun back to MA, or does it have to go thru a FFL? (which I think it does)

If someone just brought the gun to MA with no FFL , which I am assuming illegal, and I then purchased the gun from them, did I just then purchase an illegal gun, or illegally purchase a gun, or both?

I am trying to make sure I stay on the right side of things here!

 

[milktree]

It's a violation of Federal law to buy a gun privately in a state other than your state of residence. You must go through an FFL. If it's a long gun you can go through an FFL in any state, but you're required to file an FA10 when you get back to MA. If it's a handgun or stripped lower, the seller has to ship it (or drive it, if they're willing to) to a MA FFL, who will transfer it to you.

 

[HTRN]

It's a violation of Federal law to buy a gun privately in a state other than your state of residence. You must go through an FFL. If it's a long gun you can go through an FFL in any state, but you're required to file an FA10 when you get back to MA. If it's a handgun or stripped lower, the seller has to ship it (or drive it, if they're willing to) to a MA FFL, who will transfer it to you.

To clarify a bit, it is not legal to buy/sell to a resident of another state.
My searching has not found that the transaction itself cannot occur in a different state. I'm sure that someone will be buy shortly to confirm or deny.


ATF Online - Firearms - Frequently Asked Questions - Unlicensed Persons

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State

 

[boatman]

Crap. Way too confusing. Was just planning on going to gun show out of MA and I am a MA resident. Wanted to know if I could purchase a gun at the show, which I think I can do. Getting the gun to my house is a different story. From what I understand from you guys above, the item must go to a FFL in MA first, THEN to me. Not to me, cross the border then register it FFL or FA10.

Do I have that correct?

 

[HTRN]

Crap. Way too confusing. Was just planning on going to gun show out of MA and I am a MA resident. Wanted to know if I could purchase a gun at the show, which I think I can do. Getting the gun to my house is a different story. From what I understand from you guys above, the item must go to a FFL in MA first, THEN to me. Not to me, cross the border then register it FFL or FA10.

Do I have that correct?

Yes send it to an FFL for the transfer unless the seller happens to be a mass resident too.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

 

[KBCraig]

Crap. Way too confusing. Was just planning on going to gun show out of MA and I am a MA resident. Wanted to know if I could purchase a gun at the show, which I think I can do. Getting the gun to my house is a different story. From what I understand from you guys above, the item must go to a FFL in MA first, THEN to me. Not to me, cross the border then register it FFL or FA10.

Do I have that correct?

Handgun, or shotgun/rifle? It makes a difference.

You can only legally purchase a handgun from a MA resident, or a MA FFL.

If a non-resident wants to sell you a handgun, he must deliver it to a MA FFL, who can then transfer it to you.

The key word is always "transfer", because the ATF doesn't care if money changes hands. A NH resident can sell you a handgun, and you can purchase said handgun, but for it to actually be legally transferred to you --for you to take legal possession of it-- he must transfer it to the MA FFL, who then transfers it to you.

 

[Hoover]

For buying long guns from NH or VT. What exactly fits that category? Rifles and shotguns I would assume. Are AR's included as a long gun? I have a question along the lines of the OP. If I buy long gun in NH or VT, I take it with me that day, correct? I would then need to file a FA 10 within 7 days.

What if I buy a long gun but never bring it into MA. I have family in NH and VT with land and that is where I'd shoot those anyways.

If the gun would never, not once, come into MA. Would I be allowed to buy an AR 15 with the adjustable stock, 30 round mag, etc., AK's, etc.? I want what I want and don't want to conform to the MA BS, especially since the gun would never come into MA. Frankly, it's none of their business what I do in other states.

 

[milktree]

For buying long guns from NH or VT. What exactly fits that category? Rifles and shotguns I would assume. Are AR's included as a long gun?

An AR is a long gun if it's assembled as a rifle.

If it's just the lower receiver without anything else, it's in its own special category of "other" (or something like that) and is treated like a handgun, because it *can* be built as a handgun.

I have a question along the lines of the OP. If I buy long gun in NH or VT, I take it with me that day, correct? I would then need to file a FA 10 within 7 days.

Seven days of when you bring it into MA, not seven days from purchase.

What if I buy a long gun but never bring it into MA. I have family in NH and VT with land and that is where I'd shoot those anyways.

If the gun would never, not once, come into MA. Would I be allowed to buy an AR 15 with the adjustable stock, 30 round mag, etc., AK's, etc.? I want what I want and don't want to conform to the MA BS, especially since the gun would never come into MA. Frankly, it's none of their business what I do in other states.

I *think* the dealer can sell you anything that's legal to possess where the dealer is, but most don't sell anything "evil" to MA residents for fear of "some law", even if you never bring it into the state.

Yet another reason the MA AWB is so dumb.

 

[KBCraig]

It is "rifle or shotgun", not "long guns". Again, there's a difference; a pistol grip only shotgun like a Mossberg Cruiser is a long gun, but it doesn't meet the legal definition of a shotgun because it doesn't have a shoulder stock.

 

[milktree]

It is "rifle or shotgun", not "long guns". Again, there's a difference; a pistol grip only shotgun like a Mossberg Cruiser is a long gun, but it doesn't meet the legal definition of a shotgun because it doesn't have a shoulder stock.

.... so, what's it called? It's not "any other weapon" , that would fall under NFA34 rules, and it's not a handgun.

I thought a "shotgun" meant:

- smooth bore
- barrel longer than 18"
- overall length more than 26" (or is it 28"?)

 

[TonyDedo]

Simplified:

If you buy a long gun from an out of state FFL, you can transport it to MA on your own and register w/FA-10 when you get here.

All other purchases must be transferred by the seller to a MA FFL before you can take possession.

 

[SalemCat]

It is "rifle or shotgun", not "long guns". Again, there's a difference; a pistol grip only shotgun like a Mossberg Cruiser is a long gun, but it doesn't meet the legal definition of a shotgun because it doesn't have a shoulder stock.

Where did you find this ?

Not arguing, but I've never heard of this.

 

[daddysuperfly]

so can i take a shotgun from say RI, bring it to a MA FFL with the original owner (from RI) and do the transfer at the shop?

 

[deezwho]

wouldnt it be easier to do the transfer in RI if you are already there?

 

[KBCraig]

.... so, what's it called? It's not "any other weapon" , that would fall under NFA34 rules, and it's not a handgun.

It is "other firearm" on the 4473, the same as a receiver that has never been made into a rifle (or pistol).

I thought a "shotgun" meant:

- smooth bore
- barrel longer than 18"
- overall length more than 26" (or is it 28"?)

No, a shotgun is defined by ATF as a gun designed to be fired from the shoulder. ATF Online - Firearms - Guides - Importation & Verification of Firearms, Ammunition and Implements of War - Gun Control Act Definitions - Shotgun

Gun Control Act Definitions
Shotgun
18 U.S.C., § 921(A)(5) and 27 CFR § 478.11

The term “Shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder, and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

Also, see the instructions for Item 18 on the bottom left of page 5:

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf

This is where it also explains that pistol grip only shotguns, not being "a rifle or shotgun", can't be legally transferred by a dealer to anyone under the age of 21.

Where did you find this ?

Not arguing, but I've never heard of this.

ATF Online - Firearms - Frequently Asked Questions - Unlicensed Persons
Q: From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?
A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee’s premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30

 

[milktree]

...you can privately purchase a long gun from out of state but it must go through an FFL as a private sale between states. The FFL can be in EITHER parties state...

Not quite. Replace "either party's" with "any" and it's accurate.

Someone from NH can sell/give a rifle to someone from MA through an FFL in VT, for instance.

 

[Hoover]

I'm only recently getting into the laws. What a clustf%#k, both state and federal. Why the heck can't you buy a handgun where ever you'd like. The transfer stuff is ridiculous. Anyone think we can get rid of that in the next decade?

 

[milktree]

It is "other firearm" on the 4473, the same as a receiver that has never been made into a rifle (or pistol).



No, a shotgun is defined by ATF as a gun designed to be fired from the shoulder. ATF Online - Firearms - Guides - Importation & Verification of Firearms, Ammunition and Implements of War - Gun Control Act Definitions - Shotgun

Gun Control Act Definitions
Shotgun
18 U.S.C., § 921(A)(5) and 27 CFR § 478.11

The term “Shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder, and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

Also, see the instructions for Item 18 on the bottom left of page 5:

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf

This is where it also explains that pistol grip only shotguns, not being "a rifle or shotgun", can't be legally transferred by a dealer to anyone under the age of 21.




ATF Online - Firearms - Frequently Asked Questions - Unlicensed Persons
Q: From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?
A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee’s premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30

Huh... That's... curious. 4473 seems to say that anything the rest of us would call a "shotgun" but had a pistol grip would be considered "other", but the ATF webpage seems to say that it's only "other" if it doesn't have a stock, pistol grip or no. I didn't realize that the stock was an important part of the definition.

 

[Hoover]

Another question on handguns. I know there are the two sets of laws/regs for guns. Glocks are legal under the law but are not compliant because of the AG (was Harshbarger the one who started that?). So it's legal for me to own a new Glock but it's the AG crap is for the FFL. I know there are some who will accept a Glock, etc. transfer and I would not be at risk. What types of issues could it be for the FFL? I ask this not for a Glock but for a Sig MK25. I saw one in another state for a good price even after the transfer costs, etc. But it's listed as 'not compliant' on Sig's website for MA and CA. But it's the same as a P226 (except rail differences, coating, etc.) which is compliant. I don't want an issue for an FFL, most are very good people, so I don't want AG crap for them.

I know the rules, don't post if someone does a transfer, etc. Also, if this question is out of line, mod's can delete or I will. Thanks.

 

[milktree]

I'm only recently getting into the laws. What a clustf%#k, both state and federal. Why the heck can't you buy a handgun where ever you'd like. The transfer stuff is ridiculous. Anyone think we can get rid of that in the next decade?

Yes. Yes. Gun Control Act of 1968. Yes. No.

The really bogus part is that *all* the rational behind the GCA68 "home state only for handgun purchase" has completely vanished since '93 when the NICS check became mandatory for all FFL sales. Originally the intent was that a local shop would be more likely to know who the "bad" people are, and therefore not sell to them. But since any FFL anywhere in the country can know as well as any other FFL who the "bad" people through the NICS check, the home state requirement is an anachronism.

 

[milktree]

Another question on handguns. I know there are the two sets of laws/regs for guns. Glocks are legal under the law but are not compliant because of the AG (was Harshbarger the one who started that?). So it's legal for me to own a new Glock but it's the AG crap is for the FFL. I know there are some who will accept a Glock, etc. transfer and I would not be at risk. What types of issues could it be for the FFL? I ask this not for a Glock but for a Sig MK25. I saw one in another state for a good price even after the transfer costs, etc. But it's listed as 'not compliant' on Sig's website for MA and CA. But it's the same as a P226 (except rail differences, coating, etc.) which is compliant. I don't want an issue for an FFL, most are very good people, so I don't want AG crap for them.

I know the rules, don't post if someone does a transfer, etc. Also, if this question is out of line, mod's can delete or I will. Thanks.

So... that question sounds like you don't know the law completely, although you're pretty close.

The EOPS list only applies to dealers and what they can sell.
The AG's secret list also only applies to dealers and what they can sell.

You can own anything you want, so long as it doesn't run afoul of the AWB stuff.

If a dealer is found by the AG to have violated one or both of the requirements of the lists, they can get fined, put out of business, hassled, warned, or nothing, depending on... the phase of the moon, wether a raven is like a writing desk, and which way the wind blows.

The EOPS list is restrictive compared to free states, but it's positively *huge* compared to the AG's secret list.

The difference is that the EOPS list is *law*, and not open to debate or interpretation and stuff, but the AG's list is... mushy. The AG's office won't tell anyone, even lawyers making formal requests, what guns are OK and what ones are "unsafe". The only real way to tell is for a dealer to sell one or 20 and see if the AG says, "no, you can't do that." Really, I'm not making that up.

Both lists have a "before '98" exemption, but officially require that the gun have been owned by a MA resident at that time.


So, any dealer will transfer you anything that's on both lists, because there's no issue.

A lot of dealers who will transfer you anything that's on the EOPS list if it's older than '98

Some dealers will transfer you anything that's older than '98

A few dealers will transfer you something that's new and on the EOPS list, but not the AG's list.

Very very few dealers will transfer you anything because they think the lists are stupid and nonsensical.

No, I don't know of any of the last category, but I've heard enough stories to believe they exist.

 

[KBCraig]

You break the law by the action of the face to face sale out of your home state without going through an FFL.

It does not matter where the transaction takes place, only where the parties reside.

It is just as illegal to buy a gun from a private NH seller sitting in your own living room, as it is to buy it from him in NH.

Conversely, it's perfectly legal for two MA residents to conduct a private sale between themselves in NH, or Alaska, or anywhere else that private sales are legal. It doesn't matter where the transaction takes place, only where they reside.

Now... anyone want to get into having residences in multiple states?

 

[KBCraig]

I might sound pedantic, but precision in language is important when interchanging terms can land your butt in jail.

 

[massrog]

Another twist that this thread sort of applys to: If a hi-cap handgun was purchased in state by a mass ltc holder who then moves out of state is there a legal way for him to sell said handgun back into mass? Thanks in advance!

 

[Hoover]

It's a violation of Federal law to buy a gun privately in a state other than your state of residence. You must go through an FFL. If it's a long gun you can go through an FFL in any state, but you're required to file an FA10 when you get back to MA. If it's a handgun or stripped lower, the seller has to ship it (or drive it, if they're willing to) to a MA FFL, who will transfer it to you.

For this question on buying a gun privately in another state. I know pistols need to go through a FFL if crossing state lines. I assume even if you are planning on keeping the gun in say NH where you have a summer house, it still needs to go through your home state FFL.

For long guns. Is there an exception for private sale or transferring from a family member out of state to you, or does it need to go through an FFL? A similar example. Your immediate relative lives in NH, you want to keep the shotgun, rifle, etc. in NH and never bring it to MA. Does it still need a FFL or are immediate family sales or transfers exempt. I think I know the answer (just think shitty and that's probably it) but I just want to confirm it.

thanks

 

[SalemCat]

Arghhhh !

As an Engineer, we dealt with similar Engineering issues every day.

We made simple Flow Charts, with questions that could be answered YES or NO, that then lead to the next step.

That's what is needed here.

(no, I'm not volunteering)

 

[SalemCat]

It does not matter where the transaction takes place, only where the parties reside.

It is just as illegal to buy a gun from a private NH seller sitting in your own living room, as it is to buy it from him in NH.

Conversely, it's perfectly legal for two MA residents to conduct a private sale between themselves in NH, or Alaska, or anywhere else that private sales are legal. It doesn't matter where the transaction takes place, only where they reside.

Now... anyone want to get into having residences in multiple states?

Not always true for everyone.

I lurk at Maryland Shooters, and their laws are different.

Apparently to make certain transactions, Maryland residents travel over the border to VA, do the deal, and return.

And it is all ok with MD authorities !

I know we're not in Maryland. Just pointing out how screwed up Gun Laws are, or can become.

 

[SalemCat]

While it is critical to ask these questions, and do your very best to be legal, the first and only rule is to keep your firearm and any use of it out of the sight of authority.

Once a LEO is aware of it, more than likely you are in trouble.

It does not matter if you are found perfectly innocent and well within the law - a day in court is always a bad day.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Federal Law makes it a felony to do ANY private transfers (exception is inheritance ONLY) between private individuals that do not reside in the same state. Period! State Laws have nothing to do with this.

Federal Law says an FFL in any state can do the transfer (when 2 private parties want to make a deal but don't live in the same state) for long guns (assuming that state law allows for this - MA does NOT), but those long guns MUST be legal to possess for the new owner in BOTH the state of transfer and the state the new owner lives in.

Federal Law says that handguns across state lines MUST be transfered ONLY by an FFL in the state the new owner lives in. And for MA, this means it must be MA compliant or grandfathered (was in MA on/before 10/21/1998.

 

[KC80113]

OK - so then how in the hell are all these "doomsday preppers" going around publicly - and on TV shows - telling us to get as many guns as we can and make sure they aren't registered so the "government won't come and seize them?????"

I actually have heard random seizure may be a future risk here in MA.
Those who live here know that this can happen RIGHT NOW in certain towns if you move there and the cops find out you have a firearm - simply put, certain towns in MA already have banned the possession of ANY firearm by a resident of their town in MA. I know this first hand - this isn't just urban legend) and in certain other stick-up-the-butt states.
I have heard this from a contact in a federal governmental agency AND from someone that is very active in a veterans' association. Is this total BS - even though certain town governments can already do this????

All I know, if this is NOT the United States anymore - not what the founding fathers intended.