Maine gun bill would allow concealed weapons without permit

[jujutsuka]

I assume that's for resident permits...

I think that's 17 more "other state" permits that will be honored in ME. That's where "meets or exceeds" comes in.

 

[Garys]

I think that's 17 more "other state" permits that will be honored in ME. That's where "meets or exceeds" comes in.

I wonder if that will include MA and NH?

That and Constitutional Carry would explain why so much money will be lost and why positions will be eliminated.
Although if ME is going to have Constitutional Carry, this law might become moot. Unless CC is going to be limited to ME residents.

 

[soloman02]

I wonder if that will include MA and NH?

That and Constitutional Carry would explain why so much money will be lost and why positions will be eliminated.
Although if ME is going to have Constitutional Carry, this law might become moot. Unless CC is going to be limited to ME residents.

Does nobody know how to read anymore?

Be it enacted by the People of the State of Maine as follows:

Sec. 1. 12 MRSA §11212, sub-§1, ¶B, as amended by PL 2005, c. 477, §9, is further amended to read:
B. A person may not, while in or on a motor vehicle or in or on a trailer or other type of vehicle being hauled by a motor vehicle, have a cocked and armed crossbow or a firearm with a cartridge or shell in the chamber or in an attached magazine, clip or cylinder or a muzzle-loading firearm charged with powder, lead and a primed ignition device or mechanism, except that a person who has a valid Maine permit to carry a concealed weapon is not otherwise prohibited from possessing a firearm may have in or on a motor vehicle or trailer or other type of vehicle a loaded pistol or revolver covered by that permit.

Sec. 2. 25 MRSA §2001-A, sub-§2, ¶A-1 is enacted to read:
A-1. A handgun carried by a person who is not otherwise prohibited from carrying a firearm;

Summary

This bill authorizes a person who is not prohibited from possessing a firearm to carry a concealed handgun without a permit. This bill also authorizes a person to possess a loaded pistol or revolver while in a motor vehicle or a trailer or other vehicle being hauled by a motor vehicle.

http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/bills/bills_127th/billtexts/SP024501.asp

The word "resident" appears nowhere in the bill. Nor does it appear in any of the amendments:www.mainelegislature.org/legis/bills/display_ps.asp?ld=652&PID=1456&snum=127#sec0

Last I checked with respect to laws the phrase "a person" means ANY PERSON regardless of residency.

Sorry to go after you but I keep seeing people over and over ask or say that the bill would only apply to residents only, which is completely and 100% false.

 

[Garys]

The point, which you seem incapable of understanding, is that if ME adopts Constitutional Carry, then by definition they will recognize every other states permits because NO permits are required. The two bills would seem to be somewhat contradictory.

 

[Matt_SERE]

see soloman02's post below.

 

[soloman02]

The point, which you seem incapable of understanding, is that if ME adopts Constitutional Carry, then by definition they will recognize every other states permits because NO permits are required. The two bills would seem to be somewhat contradictory.

Except that they are not contradictory. The permit is still available for people to apply for and receive because the con carry law makes the permit optional. The con carry law does not recognize any other states permits, it merely states if one is not a prohibited person under the law one can carry concealed in Maine. It has nothing to do with licenses/permits from other states.

By changing the law they way they did, it likely opens up more states to accepting Maine's permit. Thus those who opt for the permit will be able to carry in more states. For example, since Hassan is going to veto SB116, NH will not have con carry (thus preventing any Mainer from carrying n NH). Because of how the law in Maine is now worded, NH will have reciprocity with Maine (if one has a Maine permit). Currently Maine and NH do NOT have reciprocity because Maine requires a training course and NH doesn't. So because of this law that is in addition to the con carry law, it is likely that Maine resident permit holders will be able to carry in NH after the Maine law takes effect.

Be it enacted by the People of the State of Maine as follows:

Sec. 1. 25 MRSA §2001-A, sub-§2, ¶F, as repealed and replaced by PL 2011, c. 691, Pt. A, §24, is repealed and the following enacted in its place:
F. A handgun carried by a person to whom a valid permit to carry a concealed handgun has been issued by that person's state of residence if that person's state of residence honors a permit to carry a concealed handgun issued under this chapter;

Sec. 2. 25 MRSA §2003, sub-§11, as amended by PL 2011, c. 298, §7, is further amended to read:
11. Permit to be in permit holder's immediate possession. Every permit holder , including a nonresident who holds a permit issued by the nonresident's state of residence, shall have the holder's permit in the holder's immediate possession at all times when carrying a concealed handgun and shall display the same on demand of any law enforcement officer. A person charged with violating this subsection may not be adjudicated as having committed a civil violation if that person produces in court the concealed handgun permit that was valid at the time of the issuance of a summons to court or, if the holder exhibits the permit to a law enforcement officer designated by the summonsing officer not later than 24 hours before the time set for the court appearance, a complaint may not be issued.

summary

Current law authorizes the Chief of the State Police to grant reciprocity to a permit to carry a concealed handgun issued from another state if the other state has substantially equivalent or stricter requirements for the issuance of a permit and the other state observes the same rules of reciprocity regarding a person issued a permit under Maine law.

This bill removes the authority of the Chief of the State Police to enter into reciprocity agreements and eliminates the required equivalency provisions and simply recognizes a concealed handgun permit issued to a person by that person's state of residence if that person's state of residence honors a permit to carry a concealed handgun issued under Maine law.

http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/bills/bills_127th/billtexts/SP031301.asp

 

[[cerberus]]

I think that's 17 more "other state" permits that will be honored in ME. That's where "meets or exceeds" comes in.

http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/bills/bills_127th/chapters/PUBLIC144.asp

What I meant by meets or exceeds, is currently the Maine state police chief gets to decide what states qualify, now he is out of the picture and it seems to open up any state with a CCW to be recognized. Not just the states that meet or exceed our standards for issue.

 

[soloman02]

http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/bills/bills_127th/chapters/PUBLIC144.asp

What I meant by meets or exceeds, is currently the Maine state police chief gets to decide what states qualify, now he is out of the picture and it seems to open up any state with a CCW to be recognized. Not just the states that meet or exceed our standards for issue.

Exactly. The Maine permit might soon become the permit recognized by the most states.

This bill removes the authority of the Chief of the State Police to enter into reciprocity agreements and eliminates the required equivalency provisions and simply recognizes a concealed handgun permit issued to a person by that person's state of residence if that person's state of residence honors a permit to carry a concealed handgun issued under Maine law.

 

[RImike]

Does Maine allow ccw on school grounds? I could see that if they didn't have a state issued permit, then that could be a sticking point.

 

[jibbr71]

Does Maine allow ccw on school grounds? I could see that if they didn't have a state issued permit, then that could be a sticking point.

No. It's explicitly prohibited by state law, so no impact on that.

 

[Garys]

You are confusing reciprocity and recognition. For example, while ME won't recognize a NH permit, I don't know if there is anything stopping NH from recognizing a ME permit unilaterally. For example, TX will recognize a MA LTC, but MA doesn't recognize any other states permits or licenses. I would expect that MA training requirements are close enough to ME that they states could recognize each others permits, but MA is probably not interested.

ME will recognize a PA non resident permit, but PA will only recognize a ME resident permit.

This law probably won't result in a big changes unless other states are willing to recognize ME permits. Some will, but I'd be willing to bet that RI, CT, MA won't. Not to mention NY, NJ, and CA.

It will depend more on what the other states are willing to do than what ME does.

Except that they are not contradictory. The permit is still available for people to apply for and receive because the con carry law makes the permit optional. The con carry law does not recognize any other states permits, it merely states if one is not a prohibited person under the law one can carry concealed in Maine. It has nothing to do with licenses/permits from other states.

By changing the law they way they did, it likely opens up more states to accepting Maine's permit. Thus those who opt for the permit will be able to carry in more states. For example, since Hassan is going to veto SB116, NH will not have con carry (thus preventing any Mainer from carrying n NH). Because of how the law in Maine is now worded, NH will have reciprocity with Maine (if one has a Maine permit). Currently Maine and NH do NOT have reciprocity because Maine requires a training course and NH doesn't. So because of this law that is in addition to the con carry law, it is likely that Maine resident permit holders will be able to carry in NH after the Maine law takes effect.



http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/bills/bills_127th/billtexts/SP031301.asp

 

[soloman02]

You are confusing reciprocity and recognition. For example, while ME won't recognize a NH permit, I don't know if there is anything stopping NH from recognizing a ME permit unilaterally. For example, TX will recognize a MA LTC, but MA doesn't recognize any other states permits or licenses. I would expect that MA training requirements are close enough to ME that they states could recognize each others permits, but MA is probably not interested.

ME will recognize a PA non resident permit, but PA will only recognize a ME resident permit.

This law probably won't result in a big changes unless other states are willing to recognize ME permits. Some will, but I'd be willing to bet that RI, CT, MA won't. Not to mention NY, NJ, and CA.

It will depend more on what the other states are willing to do than what ME does.

NH only recognizes permits if the other state will recognize NH's license. Maine would not recognize NH's license because it wasn't considered "equal" to Maine's. Now that language is gone. Thus NH and Maine will have reciprocity. Several other states operate on this premise. Now that Maine is basically saying we will recognize your license as long as you recognize ours, the "reciprocity map" for Maine will expand.

"ME will recognize a PA non resident permit, but PA will only recognize a ME resident permit." That's just plain wrong. Maine has a reciprocal agreement with PA currently for PA residents only. This law will not change that agreement.

 

[drgrant]

NH only recognizes permits if the other state will recognize NH's license. Maine would not recognize NH's license because it wasn't considered "equal" to Maine's. Now that language is gone. Thus NH and Maine will have reciprocity.

Reciprocity has to be established by both states in the form of some sort of edict from the AG or whatever, it doesn't just happen organically. And on its face, unless ME is changing its licensing provisions in the process, the licenses will not be equivalent or reciprocal, unless maine comes right out and says that. (Is maine gutting all that moral turpitude and indian tribe crap from their CCW laws? If the answer is "no" then this isn't happening, although for NH residents it really isn't going to matter, but it will matter for maine people in NH. )

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

For example, TX will recognize a MA LTC, but MA doesn't recognize any other states permits or licenses. I would expect that MA training requirements are close enough to ME that they states could recognize each others permits, but MA is probably not interested.

MA will never have reciprocity with anyone because all the statutory barriers in C180 are far worse than they are in a lot of other places, so it's impossible for the laws to align in that regard because MA has worse statutory DQs than most others do. (EG there are a few people walking around in ME and NH right now that probably have licenses who would be completely disqualified under C180 in MA). That's just the first barrier. The second one is we've always had an AG thats a 110% anti gun douchebag.

-Mike

- - - Updated - - -

Exactly. The Maine permit might soon become the permit recognized by the most states.

If it indeed does remove the equivalency provisions then I stand corrected. It'll be interesting to see what happens on the CCW app and how it effects reciprocity.

-Mike

 

[Garys]

"ME will recognize a PA non resident permit, but PA will only recognize a ME resident permit." That's just plain wrong. Maine has a reciprocal agreement with PA currently for PA residents only. This law will not change that agreement.

I checked two sources on line, both agree with me. PA will only recognize a ME resident permit, while ME will recognize any PA permit. PA will recognize either a NH resident or non resident permit, so it's not an issue for me.

 

[Garys]

Reciprocity has to be established by both states in the form of some sort of edict from the AG or whatever, it doesn't just happen organically. And on its face, unless ME is changing its licensing provisions in the process, the licenses will not be equivalent or reciprocal, unless maine comes right out and says that. (Is maine gutting all that moral turpitude and indian tribe crap from their CCW laws? If the answer is "no" then this isn't happening, although for NH residents it really isn't going to matter, but it will matter for maine people in NH. )

-Mike

Correct. ME can not dictate to any other state that said state will recognize a ME license. ME can recognize licenses from other states unilaterally as long as ME law allows it. It still seems sort of moot with Constitutional Carry UNLESS that's limited to ME residents. Which doesn't seem to be the case.

MA will never have reciprocity with anyone because all the statutory barriers in C180 are far worse than they are in a lot of other places, so it's impossible for the laws to align in that regard because MA has worse statutory DQs than most others do. (EG there are a few people walking around in ME and NH right now that probably have licenses who would be completely disqualified under C180 in MA). That's just the first barrier. The second one is we've always had an AG thats a 110% anti gun douchebag.

MA could have reciprocity if there was the will to do it. Which, as you point out, there isn't and will likely never be. Our only real hope, other than collecting a wallet full of non resident permits, is one way recognition such as TX, KY, AL, TN, and some others give to MA licenses.

 

[[cerberus]]

While it will not be automatic, I would like to hope this would pave the way for a huge state reciprocity count down the road.

 

[soloman02]

I checked two sources on line, both agree with me. PA will only recognize a ME resident permit, while ME will recognize any PA permit. PA will recognize either a NH resident or non resident permit, so it's not an issue for me.

Your sources are wrong. Both the Maine State website and Handgunlaw state that Maine will only recognize a resident permit.

Maine has reciprocal agreements with the following States for resident concealed handgun permits:

http://www.maine.gov/dps/msp/licenses/weapons_permits.html

Note:Maine State Police state that they will only honor Resident Permit/Licenses from the states they honor. I can’t find this restriction in Maine Law.

http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/maine.pdf

Yes it is true the law itself makes no distinction between resident vs non-resident reciprocity. But the Maine SP are making a distinction. Prudence would dictate that unless you have the money to fight felony criminal charges one would not carry on a non-resident permit from PA. It will soon be moot anyway since the law is changing.

 

[Coyote33]

Reciprocity has to be established by both states in the form of some sort of edict from the AG or whatever, it doesn't just happen organically. And on its face, unless ME is changing its licensing provisions in the process, the licenses will not be equivalent or reciprocal, unless maine comes right out and says that. (Is maine gutting all that moral turpitude and indian tribe crap from their CCW laws? If the answer is "no" then this isn't happening, although for NH residents it really isn't going to matter, but it will matter for maine people in NH. )

How is "edict" defined in MA law?


All that comes to mind here is this:

 

[Wendell]

Practical reasons for eliminating the need for a concealed weapon permit

Up until a couple months ago, I wouldn’t have hesitated to say I support requiring permits to carry concealed weapons. I am a firm supporter of Second Amendment rights, but I didn’t think concealed weapons permit was a big deal. Then, an acquaintance of mine told me why he supports eliminating the permit requirement as drafted in the amended version of LD 652.
http://callahan.bangordailynews.com/2015/06/07/opinion/practical-reasons-for-eliminating-the-need-for-a-concealed-weapon-permit/

 

[milktree]

Up until a couple months ago, I wouldn’t have hesitated to say I support requiring permits to carry concealed weapons. I am a firm supporter of Second Amendment rights, but I didn’t think concealed weapons permit was a big deal. Then, an acquaintance of mine told me why he supports eliminating the permit requirement as drafted in the amended version of LD 652.
http://callahan.bangordailynews.com/2015/06/07/opinion/practical-reasons-for-eliminating-the-need-for-a-concealed-weapon-permit/

It seems like closing the background check loopholes for gun sales would better serve overall public safety.

Wat?

Because a law saying you have to pass a background check is going to work better than a law that says you need a carry permit?

 

[JRT]

Your sources are wrong. Both the Maine State website and Handgunlaw state that Maine will only recognize a resident permit.


http://www.maine.gov/dps/msp/licenses/weapons_permits.html



http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/maine.pdf

Yes it is true the law itself makes no distinction between resident vs non-resident reciprocity. But the Maine SP are making a distinction. Prudence would dictate that unless you have the money to fight felony criminal charges one would not carry on a non-resident permit from PA. It will soon be moot anyway since the law is changing.

Maybe the confusion is because PA does not issue non resident permits like NH, MA and ME for example. They issue the exact same license to a non resident as they do a resident. A PA license to carry firearms.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[RImike]

Maybe the confusion is because PA does not issue non resident permits like NH, MA and ME for example. They issue the exact same license to a non resident as they do a resident. A PA license to carry firearms.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Technically if you applied in RI to the town under 11-47-11, the same would be true.

 

[LongGunner]

Up until a couple months ago, I wouldn’t have hesitated to say I support requiring permits to carry concealed weapons. I am a firm supporter of Second Amendment rights, but I didn’t think concealed weapons permit was a big deal. Then, an acquaintance of mine told me why he supports eliminating the permit requirement as drafted in the amended version of LD 652.
http://callahan.bangordailynews.com/2015/06/07/opinion/practical-reasons-for-eliminating-the-need-for-a-concealed-weapon-permit/

The perspectives of our neighbors on both sides warrant consideration, too, but the perspectives of the NRA, whether people love them or hate them, do not

What about the perspectives of our neighbors who are also NRA members? Seems like the perspectives of the NRA will matter and warrant consideration.

 

[Wendell]

60,000 signatures on “people’s veto” could kill L.D. 652 'convicted criminal carry'

If all plays out as expected, legislators and the governor will shortly make it legal for convicted criminals to secretly carry loaded handguns into businesses or down any street despite 89% of Maine residents opposing such action. But truth be told, passage of L.D. 652 could provide an important opportunity to ultimately change the course of gun laws in Maine. We need to put a gun safety initiative directly in front of the voters so we can show the Legislature that the people are not on the same side as the NRA and its special interest lobbyists. So here’s our chance. Assuming the governor signs this crazy bill, we the people will have 90 days from when the Legislature adjourns to gather the 60,000 signatures needed to put the bill on the ballot for a “people’s veto” in November.

<http://contributors.pressherald.com/politics/agree-to-disagree/it-is-time-for-a-peoples-veto-on-guns/>

 

[jibbr71]

If all plays out as expected, legislators and the governor will shortly make it legal for convicted criminals to secretly carry loaded handguns into businesses or down any street despite 89% of Maine residents opposing such action. But truth be told, passage of L.D. 652 could provide an important opportunity to ultimately change the course of gun laws in Maine. We need to put a gun safety initiative directly in front of the voters so we can show the Legislature that the people are not on the same side as the NRA and its special interest lobbyists. So here’s our chance. Assuming the governor signs this crazy bill, we the people will have 90 days from when the Legislature adjourns to gather the 60,000 signatures needed to put the bill on the ballot for a “people’s veto” in November.

<http://contributors.pressherald.com/politics/agree-to-disagree/it-is-time-for-a-peoples-veto-on-guns/>

Holy shit, that guy's a nutball.

 

[Hoover]

Holy shit, that guy's a nutball.

He probably moved to ME from MA, NY, NJ and doesn't realize he's not in kansas anymore. I'd love to see him go door to door in places other than portland. I'm sure the signature requirement is similar to MA where you need to get certain amounts from each county.

He's dilusional.

 

[RYJ]

He probably moved to ME from MA, NY, NJ and doesn't realize he's not in kansas anymore. I'd love to see him go door to door in places other than portland. I'm sure the signature requirement is similar to MA where you need to get certain amounts from each county.

He's dilusional.

He's from NY

 

[Hoover]

He's from NY

That explains it all. He should tell people he wants the NY safe act. He'd be lobster food.

 

[Len-2A Training]

That explains it all. He should tell people he wants the NY safe act. He'd be lobster food.

Nah, I don't think that the lobsters would want him either!

Figures that it is a NY transplant. Hopefully the Mainers will show him the way "home"!