I'll have to pass on that one. I'm all set with the Chernobyl livestock lol!Clone me a pig that is 40%+ bacon, I'll buy a herd. Same goes for a chicken with 6 or more legs.
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I'll have to pass on that one. I'm all set with the Chernobyl livestock lol!Clone me a pig that is 40%+ bacon, I'll buy a herd. Same goes for a chicken with 6 or more legs.
So, if I nuked my garden with Round-up and one of the plants managed to survive for ANY reason, and I propagated it, Monsanto could sue me for patent infringement? ...and here, I thought I was just trying to improve my plants genetic lineage, much like we used to do to make plants resistant to pests. Monsanto can get bent; I don't want their product and I don't want their license, if they want to protect their patent(patenting DNA... what HAS this world come to?), then they have to ensure that their seed cannot cross-pollinate into neighboring fields. It is not the job of the neighbors to ensure your shit doesn't leave your field, that is your job; ESPECIALLY if you have something in your field that is worth a lot of money and has a tendency to spread on it's own.
Edit: Missed that there was a second page... if Bowman was doing the whole grain elevator thing, I suppose I can see where the patent thing comes from; my issue is that the scenario I painted above is not exactly far off the mark. If I bought a bag of soybean seed and planted them, Monsanto could conceivably come after me for patent infringement because my crop could contain their modified stuff. Thanks to the law that protects them from having to label their product, how would I know if that bag had GMO seed?
Next, if not already, it's going to be patents on genetically mutated cloned cattle and other farm animals. Tastey viddles...![]()
I was talking more about the cloning aspect...Plant patents have been legal since 1930 - waaaay before genetic engineering. Patenting of genetically modified non-human life forms was ruled to be legal by the USC back in 1980 if I am remembering the date correctly. You are a few decades late to the party.
I was talking more about the cloning aspect...
What? That's not quite what happened with Farmer Bowman. From the USC opinion:
Sounds like someone knows what she's talking about. This is one subject I'll have to bow out on... I get what you're saying about the plants, but I was really talking about the cloned animals side. I wasn't clear... I just want the mad scientists and the govt to stay away from my food.Well, asexually reproducing plants are clones. And making a transgenic organism generally involves cloning if you want the trait to carry to the offspring.
MONSANTO is an abomination.
Thank you, that was an awesome contribution to the reasoned discourse.
Hiltonizer - I will be back to discuss Schmeiser when I am on a proper keyboard.![]()
Sorry, but no, that's not how patents work.In regards to the Crimison Trace grip remark, unless your product was also named Crimson Trace, then from what I understand it is 100% legal to design a similar product although you would not be able to be granted a patent on it if it 100% replicates the already existing/developed Crimson Trace.
Sounds like someone knows what she's talking about. This is one subject I'll have to bow out on... I get what you're saying about the plants, but I was really talking about the cloned animals side. I wasn't clear... I just want the mad scientists and the govt to stay away from my food.
I just want the mad scientists and the govt to stay away from my food.
Not familiar with that one, was referring to Schmeiser.
I'm fine with agreeing to disagree, it was a 5:4 decision. A single judge is the differentiation on who's legally right (you, admittedly) in this case. That's what's really concerning more than Monsanto itself... courts. Icky.
IMO, no one has the sole rights to patent or copyright seeds unless they invented the first seeds.
The fact that Monsato went around suing those who used his product is just pathetic and IMO he/they did so to eliminate any/all competiton.
In regards to the Crimison Trace grip remark, unless your product was also named Crimson Trace, then from what I understand it is 100% legal to design a similar product although you would not be able to be granted a patent on it if it 100% replicates the already existing/developed Crimson Trace.
I should be 100% in the clear and not violating the patent and rights of Houge.
My uncle is an attorney whos partner specializes in Patent and Copyright law, he currently is reviewing a product idea of mine to see if it already exists. If it does not, I will submit my info and whatnot to the Patent Office and begin full development. What I designed is just a design variation of a product which has been around for years.
My issue with Monsanto is I oppose corporate greed and market dominance. I am "The little guy" so was my father, his father and several other family members. So many have been screwed over by corporations like Monsanto for no reason other than the small store stands in the way of the big store. They are money hungry SOBs with their political influences and deep wallets. My dad is a Pharmacist, owned a pharmacy in Milford CT from the early 1970s-2008. He retired after watching several other established "mom/pop" businessess close down while big chain stores like Walgreens, Costco, Walmart and CVS moved into town. His father was put out of business by Autozone and Advanced Auto Parts. Both my dad and his dad had dozens of employees and thousands of customers.
You and my wife would have a great conversation I'm sure. She is really the one that is driving all our food choices and I fully support her. So does my paycheck... I know enough to be dangerous about the subject lol, but everytime I debate her on something new that she comes to me with, she shows me the "proof" and where it came from. She's very thorough like you ;-) Do I complain about it every time she goes food shopping and I see the price she just paid for milk or eggs etc? You bet. She bought raw milk from a farm in Framingham the other day and I almost passed out at the price! We're not making that one a regular occurance lol... In the end I believe she's right. Every once in a while I have to stop her and explain that I can't process any more information re: the food industry. It gets overwhelming, but it's her passion and what she researches alot. Some might say we're crunchy granolas for that. They couldn't be any more wrong. If you knew us, you'd understand. We love beer, Harleys and guns. Almost sounds a little red neck lol!You first.
Point the first - I completely support people's right to choose what foods they do and do not want to eat. Whether it's GMO, hybrid, heirloom, organic, fair trade, free-range, ethical, low-impact, HFCS, made in the US, made in China, harvested in the US, vegan, vegetarian, blah blah blah, I support the IDEA of such labeling so that people could make informed decisions about what they put in their bodies. I think a lot of those choices aren't necessarily based in fact or particularly logical, but I COMPLETELY support your right to make your own choice, even if you make it because the Flying Spaghetti Monster told you to do it.
Logical Nicole points out that you CAN eat GMO-free right now, by eating "organic," having your own garden, and/or sourcing from farmer's markets and local food producers.
Libertarian Nicole says that if all the people who supposedly hate GMOs would stop buying things that don't specifically exclude the possibility of GMOs on their labeling, then perhaps the market forces would lead to more labeling and/or less GMOs. Or not, in which case, those who wish to avoid them can pay the premium price instead of forcing that cost upon others by dint of more government regulations.
Cynical Nicole notes that most people think such libertarian ideas are great right up to the moment it means their grocery bill is higher or they are inconvenienced by not being able to one-stop-shop. Then they want to force other people to do things they way they want to make life more convenient for themselves.
Point the second:
Roger that. And you are REALLY late to the party on that one. My connection at the moment is rather slow, but google "teosinte corn" and go look. Teosinte is the wild plant which corn comes from. The dramatic transformation from teosinte to corn was accomplished long ago - the mad scientists have always been among us, they aren't a modern phenomenon.
Polysomy: In the process of domesticating a lot of the crops, we ended up picking out the mutants that had extra copies of the genome in every cell. Many of your crops have 2, 4, 8 or more copies of their ENTIRE genomes...yet you probably munch happily upon your strawberries and bananas and have never considered this fact.
Ever consider how screwed up a seedless grape is?
Do you eat tomatoes? Corn? Potatoes? Those are New World crops. Humans did not evolve to eat those things, and when tomatoes and potatoes were brought to Europe, the governments and elites generally had to force people to grow and eat them, because the peasants recognized them as relatives of the nightshades and were none too keen on eating them.
Do you happily eat non-GMO wheat, corn, etc? Most of the commercial crops that aren't GMOs are hybrids. The two technologies aren't the same, but hybrids are exactly the sort of things that are cooked up by "mad scientists."
Do you eat apples? Drink wine? Most of those crops have had problems with various diseases, and the mad scientists of yore figured out years ago that if you stuck a branch from a very tasty type of apple or grape onto a resistant, but not so tasty apple or grape plant, that you'd end up with a chimera that made tasty food on that grafted branch AND was resistant to the diseases! How's that for Frankenfood?
The fact that we have domesticated crops at all is the work of some of the earliest mad scientists.
If you want to draw a line in the sand of "this far and no further" or you feel that GMO moved too far too fast and is making guinea pigs of us, then by all means, do so. But don't pretend that the organic corn you buy at the farmer's market is "natural" or free of the meddling of the mad scientists. You're just refusing to be an early adopter / beta-tester.![]()
You and my wife would have a great conversation I'm sure. She is really the one that is driving all our food choices and I fully support her. So does my paycheck... I know enough to be dangerous about the subject lol, but everytime I debate her on something new that she comes to me with, she shows me the "proof" and where it came from. She's very thorough like you ;-) Do I complain about it every time she goes food shopping and I see the price she just paid for milk or eggs etc? You bet. She bought raw milk from a farm in Framingham the other day and I almost passed out at the price! We're not making that one a regular occurance lol... In the end I believe she's right. Every once in a while I have to stop her and explain that I can't process any more information re: the food industry. It gets overwhelming, but it's her passion and what she researches alot. Some might say we're crunchy granolas for that. They couldn't be any more wrong. If you knew us, you'd understand. We love beer, Harleys and guns. Almost sounds a little red neck lol!
I grew up on meat and potatoes. My children are growing up on meat and potatoes. When I talk to my parents who are extremely frugal (I mean extremely), they always come back to "you grew up on that and look at you! We bought the cheap hamburg, why can't you?" Using me as a comparison for "normal and healthy" makes me laugh every time even though I am very healthy. The food they were buying in the 60s and 70s is far different than what you find in the main stream now.
There are no lines drawn in the sand from me except for the one where I say stay away from the foods my family and I want to buy and grow. If someone wants to buy the "pink slime" meats and other main stream foods, go for it! It's their choice and none of my business. Eating healthy is a pain in the ass and expensive! Like you said, the prices would come down if the masses didn't want McDonald's type food. In the end, I like science. There is a place for it. I think they've just gone way too far. My wife takes organic to another level. She doesn't look at something and believe it's organic just because it has a label. She goes as far back to the source as possible to see where it came from and how it was grown or what it was fed. I really give her credit. It's a lot of work. "Guns and butter". I'm guns, she's butter lol. She supports my gun habit, so the least I can do is support her!
You and my wife would have a great conversation I'm sure. She is really the one that is driving all our food choices and I fully support her. So does my paycheck... I know enough to be dangerous about the subject lol, but everytime I debate her on something new that she comes to me with, she shows me the "proof" and where it came from. She's very thorough like you ;-) Do I complain about it every time she goes food shopping and I see the price she just paid for milk or eggs etc? You bet. She bought raw milk from a farm in Framingham the other day and I almost passed out at the price! We're not making that one a regular occurance lol... In the end I believe she's right. Every once in a while I have to stop her and explain that I can't process any more information re: the food industry. It gets overwhelming, but it's her passion and what she researches alot. Some might say we're crunchy granolas for that. They couldn't be any more wrong. If you knew us, you'd understand. We love beer, Harleys and guns. Almost sounds a little red neck lol!
I grew up on meat and potatoes. My children are growing up on meat and potatoes. When I talk to my parents who are extremely frugal (I mean extremely), they always come back to "you grew up on that and look at you! We bought the cheap hamburg, why can't you?" Using me as a comparison for "normal and healthy" makes me laugh every time even though I am very healthy. The food they were buying in the 60s and 70s is far different than what you find in the main stream now.
There are no lines drawn in the sand from me except for the one where I say stay away from the foods my family and I want to buy and grow. If someone wants to buy the "pink slime" meats and other main stream foods, go for it! It's their choice and none of my business. Eating healthy is a pain in the ass and expensive! Like you said, the prices would come down if the masses didn't want McDonald's type food. In the end, I like science. There is a place for it. I think they've just gone way too far. My wife takes organic to another level. She doesn't look at something and believe it's organic just because it has a label. She goes as far back to the source as possible to see where it came from and how it was grown or what it was fed. I really give her credit. It's a lot of work. "Guns and butter". I'm guns, she's butter lol. She supports my gun habit, so the least I can do is support her!
She is and I'll keep my eyes open for that ticket!She sounds awesome. Kudos to her for putting in that level of work. We have our own preferences for food re: ethics, sources, ingredients and it is a long hard slog to work towards a personal ideal. I agree that the modern world doesn't facilitate a lot of thoughtful food choices, in a number of ways. Keep hoping for the winning lotto ticket so we have the time and money!
You are the mainstream consumer. I get it. You know how many chow halls I ate at in the Corps? Talk about bargain basement ingredients. MREs were real healthy lol... I lived with it and didn't think twice about it. A good portion of society thinks just like you. I support you completely in your decision to buy what you want. It's all good... I just hope you keep your eyes and mind open. Certain things are expensive, but it's actually kind of funny, a majority of what we buy offsets the cost of the expensive things. I would put money on it that our food bill is a lot less than most peoples. It just takes a little more time to go food shopping. We eat out pretty routinely. We're not ridiculous with it, we just do the best we can.We go to the store, we buy the food, we bring it home and cook it and eat it. Worrying about what is in my food is not something I spend my time on. Granted, we buy mostly fresh stuff, but I seriously couldn't care less if my chicken was free-range, or kept in a shoebox that was regularly loaded into a paint shaker, so long as the stuff cooks up right. I would avoid GMO's and the like out of principal, but I'm not going to pay double because someone slapped a label on their product that claims it is organic. Wanna make sure your vegetables are free of pesticides? Wash the damned things before you eat them. Better yet, grow them yourself; the taste of a strawberry fresh from the plant is better than anything you'll buy in a store, and the same goes for corn and carrots, I can say that from experience. Beef/chicken/pork is the same way, fresh killed is soooo much tastier than the stuff in the store.
EDIT: I am not saying my thoughts are right or wrong, I am saying they are right FOR ME. Make your own decisions and then stick to them until something comes along that makes you reevaluate your position.
Nicole et al. thank you for this discussion and all the great info. One of the things that has always interested me in the Monsanto discussion is from the point of view of those that specifically do not want to be contaminated or crossed with GMOs. I think there is a lawsuit (or several) against Monsanto now from a group of farmers in CA that want to stay organic and NGMO. What is Monsanto's responsibility in regards to making sure their self propagating invention does not get out of control (ie jump from one farmer's field to another's who does not want it)? I would think the organic farmers would have some sort of damage claim for their fields being contaminated with Monsanto seed and out-competed.
the organic farmers would have some sort of damage claim for their fields being contaminated with Monsanto seed and out-competed.
This discussion always reminds of the 'lysine contingency' from Jurassic Park (the dinos could not produce their own lysine so had to be provided it or would die). To the OP's original post, the thing that concerns me from a prepper pov is if we get to the point where seeds are so modified that they will not grow without some magic Monsanto solution, in a SHTF situation we are all f****ed.
1.Monsanto creates dependent seed that out competes all others
2.Only Monsanto seed is left on the planet, farmers use magic solution from Monsanto to grow crops.
3.TOWAWKI
4.No one can get magic solution, man starves
5.Dinosaurs inherit the Earth.
Nicole,
Do you think there is any truth that Monsanto and it's Round-up-Ready are killing bees at an alarming rate?
Monsanto Now Funding Bee Research After Round-Up Ready Queen Confiscated | Off The Grid News
For more than 15 years, Terry Ingram has been researching the impact of Round-Up on honeybees. He strongly believes that the body of data he has collected indicates that both the chemical pesticide and Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD) are to blame for the dwindling bee population. CCD is impacting bee populations from around the world. Had the state not taken and destroyed his Round-Up Ready queen bee, Ingram was going to raise her female offspring to determine if there was a genetic resistance to the pesticide present. When the Illinois Department of Agriculture seized and destroyed the beekeeper’s colony, they ruined 15 years of research on the effects of Round-Up on honeybees.
One thing I did find interesting from that article Adam linked is Figure 4
View attachment 69170
I could not find a source for this but it seems to indicate a decline in the bee population since 1950. From what I can tell, Roundup hit the market in 1970. I do think it is related to all pesticide use though. My unsubstantiated guess is it has to do with sublethal doses effecting bee behavior.
One more related question: In addition to the 'blown in' contamination from one field to another, I was also thinking of bee carried contamination. I may need some schooling on my plant genetics, but won't bees carry half the genome from GMO plants from Farmer A to Farmer B's NGMO field such that subsequent generations will be ?? Half GMO?
The destruction of such a potentially interesting queen is despicable. I hate thuggery. I hate government thuggery. I would have LOVED to have seen what could have been gleaned by studying that bee and her offspring. She lived where others died - that has serious potential, no matter what killed the others.