Mossberg 500 Tactical, can be sold new by FFL in MA?

[jasons]

Ah, touche...but is it enforced at all?

And is the reason for the present non-enforcment a matter of statutory interpretation and constructed yet to be considered in this thread, or a matter of morality? I don't think we've gotten there yet.

It's MA. It's not the latter.

I think it's just another area of MA gun law that's so confusing that it confuses the confusers.

 

[Kevlar]

Does anyone know if the ATF had an opinion on this from 1994-2004? I would consider that a definitive answer.

No opinion necessary, because since ~1997 Federal regulations have exempted fixed magazines for manually operated firearms...

Large capacity ammunition feeding device. A magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar device for a firearm manufactured after September 13, 1994, that has a capacity of, or that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more than 10 rounds of ammunition. The term does not include an attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable of operating only with, .22 caliber rimfire ammunition, or a fixed device for a manually operated firearm, or a fixed device for a firearm listed in 18 U.S.C. 922, Appendix A.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2012-title27-vol3/xml/CFR-2012-title27-vol3-sec478-11.xml

 

[jasons]

No opinion necessary, because since ~1997 Federal regulations have exempted fixed magazines for manually operated firearms...

Interesting that MA plagiarized the bulk of the Federal definition, but then specifically left out two of it's three exceptions. It's almost like they did it on purpose....

 

[OfficerObie59]

No opinion necessary, because since ~1997 Federal regulations have exempted fixed magazines for manually operated firearms...



http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2012-title27-vol3/xml/CFR-2012-title27-vol3-sec478-11.xml

Interesting that MA plagiarized the bulk of the Federal definition, but then specifically left out two of it's three exceptions. It's almost like they did it on purpose....

Thank for the correction. I wasn't aware of that language change.

 

[wmass]

So then how does a keltec ksg get sold in mass? Too many idiotic ways to get hit with a felony in this god forsaken state.

 

[chinalfr]

So then how does a keltec ksg get sold in mass? Too many idiotic ways to get hit with a felony in this god forsaken state.

KSG is illegal. Don't buy it even in NH/VT/CT/ME. If you seen one in LGS for less than $800. Let me know and I'll take care the issue free of charge.

"Send it" via iPhone M107A1

 

[Franco]

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[jasons]

PUMP ACTIONS AND BOLT ACTIONS ARE EXEMPT FROM THE MA AWB!!! THOSE REGS APPLY TO SEMI-AUTOS

WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH LARGE CAPACITY FEEDING DEVICES?

 

[Franco]

.

 

[ChevyGuy91]

PUMP ACTIONS AND BOLT ACTIONS ARE EXEMPT FROM THE MA AWB!!! THOSE REGS APPLY TO SEMI-AUTOS

WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH LARGE CAPACITY FEEDING DEVICES?

 

[Franco]

.

 

[Mike-Mike]

One reasuring factor is that one particular gun shop and others in MA that do everything by the book, and still provide brand new 7-8 rd shot pump shotguns to purchase. So im pretty sure the owner had legal council look at this confusing law at some point to confirm it is lawful to do so.

I think MA law and the Federal law had it out for the semi-auto when the law was enacted which MA kept after it sunsetted, but the exemption of manual firearms got entangled in the ball of confusion and vague language that comes from people who make laws that are adverse to the subject and arent firearms enthusiasts.

Also on FA10 form it states "Large Capacity - NO"

 

[Franco]

.

 

[Mike-Mike]

Having a pre-ban or post-ban "large cap. feeding device" only relate when the firearms are a semi-auto. And i think anything other angle on this is pure confusion some one may want to impose on you. If you have a MA LTC-A you obviously have the proper state issued license to purchase a large cap pump shotgun.

The problem is the Post Ban LCFD is a felony even if the firearm is not present. For instance if you had a new 6rd detachable mag for a bolt action shotgun, you would be a felon.

 

[drgrant]

Food for thought.. IIRC, that kid who got bagged driving through MA not that long ago, with the 50BMG necklace with the guns floating around in his car had a typical Mossberg 500 something in his car, and last I knew, he didn't get written up on a post-ban LCAFD charge in the midst of all the other crap they wrote him up for. Actually, if it was really an LCAFD they could have easily written him up on that charge alone, as I don't think he had any kind of MA LTC.

My guess is from a prosecutorial standpoint there is a belief that bagging someone on a tube fed pump action shotgun is a difficult proposition. I've talked to a few different MA gun lawyers and none of them have been able to tell me about any relevant case law WRT pump action shotguns and capacity.

Hate to say it, but someone like Jason Guida probably knows the real reason why this charge is never applied WRT pumps. That's definitely an MA gun law skeleton in a closet.

-Mike

 

[RoterTeufel]

I agree that it's not an AWB thing. I also agree that the shotgun itself isn't a "large capacity weapon." The magazine tube, if it holds more than 5 shells, is a large capacity feeding device. That in and of itself is illegal regardless of the gun it's attached to (or even if it's not attached to a gun at all.)

Post-ban "large" capacity feeding devices are not legal in MA. Period. The same law that says that you can't buy a post-ban "large" capacity Glock mag says that you can't buy a post-ban "large" capacity shotgun mag tube.

In that case then nearly every gun shop in the state sells illegal shotguns.

-Mike

+1

To, OP:

I have a Mossberg 590A1 Special Purpose 20" 8+1 rounds.
Speed Feed (non-pistol grip) stock, which allows storage of +2 shells inside (4 total).
Also has "bayonet lug"! Heaven forbid!
Bought within the past couple years at a LARGE MA Gun store that follows the letter-of-the-law.

Its a pump shotgun. Not assault weapon.
If you are really looking for one - I'll sell it to you, I'm looking for a trap gun!

Edit: Sorry - didn't mean to hi-jack

 

[Len-2A Training]

Food for thought.. IIRC, that kid who got bagged driving through MA not that long ago, with the 50BMG necklace with the guns floating around in his car had a typical Mossberg 500 something in his car, and last I knew, he didn't get written up on a post-ban LCAFD charge in the midst of all the other crap they wrote him up for. Actually, if it was really an LCAFD they could have easily written him up on that charge alone, as I don't think he had any kind of MA LTC.

My guess is from a prosecutorial standpoint there is a belief that bagging someone on a tube fed pump action shotgun is a difficult proposition. I've talked to a few different MA gun lawyers and none of them have been able to tell me about any relevant case law WRT pump action shotguns and capacity.

Hate to say it, but someone like Jason Guida probably knows the real reason why this charge is never applied WRT pumps. That's definitely an MA gun law skeleton in a closet.

-Mike

We've covered this probably 50+ times now. Guida, EOPS, and Glidden are all in agreement that tube fed "mags" aren't mags in the proper sense and thus are a non-issue. I'll leave it to the interested to search here for details.

 

[jasons]

We've covered this probably 50+ times now. Guida, EOPS, and Glidden are all in agreement that tube fed "mags" aren't mags in the proper sense and thus are a non-issue. I'll leave it to the interested to search here for details.

Yeah, but what is their legal reasoning behind their interpretation? And are their interpretations legally binding?

 

[jasons]

I have a Mossberg 590A1 Special Purpose 20" 8+1 rounds.

Then by the black and white letter of the law you have a LCFD. Whether or not that law is enforced or recognized in this specific context isn't really relevant.

I already cited it earlier in the thread but here it is again:

“Large capacity feeding device”, (i) a fixed or detachable magazine, box, drum, feed strip or similar device capable of accepting, or that can be readily converted to accept, more than ten rounds of ammunition or more than five shotgun shells; or (ii) a large capacity ammunition feeding device as defined in the federal Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(31) as appearing in such section on September 13, 1994. The term “large capacity feeding device” shall not include an attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable of operating only with,.22 caliber ammunition.

 

[endus]

And are their interpretations legally binding?

That's the real question and I think why there is still confusion about this.

 

[Franco]

.

 

[jasons]

Pardon my ignorance, is there even such a shotgun out there that is bolt action and with detachable mags?

I don't know, but they don't have to be detachable to be LCFDs so the question seems irrelevant.

 

[Mike-Mike]

Pardon my ignorance, is there even such a shotgun out there that is bolt action and with detachable mags?

Sure is

- - - Updated - - -

http://www.gunauction.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=9347397

 

[Franco]

.

 

[jasons]

Shouldn't GOAL or COMM2A address this once they are done with the licensing delay chaos. They are making us licensees potenial violators with out even being clear on these laws and its really up to them if they want to bag you that bad or not.

The messed up thing is that in this case the law is VERY clear. The fact that certain gun law celebrities misinterpret it (on purpose?) leads one to tinfoil hat land.

No person shall sell, offer for sale, transfer or possess an assault weapon or a large capacity feeding device that was not otherwise lawfully possessed on September 13, 1994. Whoever not being licensed under the provisions of section 122 violates the provisions of this section shall be punished, for a first offense, by a fine of not less than $1,000 nor more than $10,000 or by imprisonment for not less than one year nor more than ten years, or by both such fine and imprisonment, and for a second offense, by a fine of not less than $5,000 nor more than $15,000 or by imprisonment for not less than five years nor more than 15 years, or by both such fine and imprisonment.

The provisions of this section shall not apply to: (i) the possession by a law enforcement officer for purposes of law enforcement; or (ii) the possession by an individual who is retired from service with a law enforcement agency and is not otherwise prohibited from receiving such a weapon or feeding device from such agency upon retirement.

Not much room for "interpretation" there.

 

[Mike-Mike]

Shouldn't GOAL or COMM2A address this once they are done with the licensing delay chaos. MA making us licensees potenial violators with out even being clear on these laws and its really up to them if they want to bag you that bad or not.

No - We need to be careful what we ask for.

 

[drgrant]

Shouldn't GOAL or COMM2A address this once they are done with the licensing delay chaos. MA making us licensees potenial violators with out even being clear on these laws and its really up to them if they want to bag you that bad or not.

No. No way. Bad, bad idea. There's a reason why this law isn't prosecuted the way it appears, and whatever that reason is on the ground, is benefiting us. Otherwise the AG would have used it to shut down nearly every gun shop in MA at this point.

-Mike

 

[jasons]

Hate to say it, but someone like Jason Guida probably knows the real reason why this charge is never applied WRT pumps. That's definitely an MA gun law skeleton in a closet.

My guess is that is has the potential to be easily killed in a trial (under "void for vagueness" for example,) which would invalidate the entire LCFD law. In other words I think it's more of a strategic decision than a legal one. No, I'm not interested in testing this guess.

 

[Franco]

.

 

[jasons]

Weren't there pump shotguns still sold with extended tubes sold during the FED AWB from 1994-2004? this should be a good indicator.

We've been over this, but the federal AWB law on LCFDs had a specific exemption for pump shotguns. The MA version does not.


Old Federal law:

Large capacity ammunition feeding device. A magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar device for a firearm manufactured after September 13, 1994, that has a capacity of, or that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more than 10 rounds of ammunition. The term does not include an attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable of operating only with, .22 caliber rimfire ammunition, or a fixed device for a manually operated firearm, or a fixed device for a firearm listed in 18 U.S.C. 922, Appendix A.

Current MA law:

“Large capacity feeding device”, (i) a fixed or detachable magazine, box, drum, feed strip or similar device capable of accepting, or that can be readily converted to accept, more than ten rounds of ammunition or more than five shotgun shells; or (ii) a large capacity ammunition feeding device as defined in the federal Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(31) as appearing in such section on September 13, 1994. The term “large capacity feeding device” shall not include an attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable of operating only with,.22 caliber ammunition.

Note that the MA version specifies "fixed or detachable" as being in scope and deletes the exemption for "a fixed device for a manually operated firearm."