NFA trust loophole/ CLEO sign off might just be going away after all.

So your blaming the result of an executiove order on the NFATCA? What do you even know about the NFATCA? Jeff a rat? [rolleyes] If that's the best you can come up with, you shouldn't even vote.

And on the CLEO sign-off for trust, go and actually do fact checking before you make statements like that. Are you even a member of the NFATCA or are you basing your comments on internet reporting?
 
Acme.Armament said:
You two need to go do some fact checking instead of slinging crap. What was in the signed executive order was not what NFATCA wanted at all. [thinking]

Their still is no requirement for a CLEO sign off if you have a trust.
Click to expand...
EDIT: respectfully, there is.

https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/f...uctive-devices-and-certain-other-firearms.pdf

Ref: Page 21, 24, creating a new form 5320.23 that requires prints, photos and signoff from the CLEO for EVERY member of a trust. The word "natural" being removed from person and then defining a person as a human or a trust or corporation.


Second, the idea that NFATCA goes to the ATF and states that they should do away with CLEO since people are bypassing it with trusts begged for a change to trusts. It is the perfect "unintended consequences". The cooperation the ATF had with NFATCA was a sham and had more to do with allowing the proposed new regs to be "proposed" by a "pro gun" group rather than ATF. The document specifically references the NFATCA as being part of the proposal.

NFATCA brings the fact up that people are bypassing CLEO as justification for allowing EVERYONE to bypass CLEO..... Result: CLEO enforced on ALL now... Seriously, who didnt see this coming with THIS anti gun president. Proposing the change during a different administration MAY have resulted in something different but all they did was give AMMO to Barak and the ATF to change the rules.

NFATCA got half of what they wanted, the crap half and no CLEO elimination. NFATCA propsed background checks for trusts, and now ALL members get checked. NAFTCA's petition is what got the ball rolling, what did they expect? Honesty? Reality?
 
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Acme.Armament said:
So your blaming the result of an executiove order on the NFATCA? What do you even know about the NFATCA? Jeff a rat? [rolleyes] If that's the best you can come up with, you shouldn't even vote.

And on the CLEO sign-off for trust, go and actually do fact checking before you make statements like that. Are you even a member of the NFATCA or are you basing your comments on internet reporting?
Click to expand...

Are you kidding me?

1.)You do understand it was the NFATCA that petitioned the aft to close the trust loophole, right?

http://www.examiner.com/article/nfa-firearms-collectors-group-initiated-atf-gun-trust-rule-change


2.)The Cleo sign off stuff is on the ATF website: see pg14, it will expanded for trusts

https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/f...uctive-devices-and-certain-other-firearms.pdf

3.) the stuff about John brown is public record.

http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2012/09/it-was-learned-in-discovery-materials.html
 
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Even though it doesn't affect me (Has there ever been a refusal to sign by a New Hampshire police chief?), the part that irks me most is the failure to eliminate the CLEO "signoff". The need for a "permission slip" from your local head cop really does need to go away.
 
Kevin_NH said:
Even though it doesn't affect me (Has there ever been a refusal to sign by a New Hampshire police chief?), the part that irks me most is the failure to eliminate the CLEO "signoff". The need for a "permission slip" from your local head cop really does need to go away.
Click to expand...
I'm about to find out.
 
I looked into this a while back and seem to recall the attorney (Joe Hickson) indicated that a CLEO needs to sign off on your green card even if you have a trust (in MA). Perhaps I misunderstood him though. I figured if you can't get a green card then everything else is non-starter.
 
MA_Shooter said:
I looked into this a while back and seem to recall the attorney (Joe Hickson) indicated that a CLEO needs to sign off on your green card even if you have a trust (in MA). Perhaps I misunderstood him though. I figured if you can't get a green card then everything else is non-starter.
Click to expand...

green card is for MA state, so yes, CLEO must say yes.

otherwise NFA items are moot, machine guns at least. AOWs and SBS/SBRs are still on the table as you can go the trust route for that, but in MA you need special "papieren" to possess a machine gun.
 
41P “final action” date is now June 2014.

Proposed Rulemaking 1140-AA43 Updated: 06/00/2014

Also see the email sent by AAC earlier today:
AAC said:
Dear AAC Dealer,

41P is what ATF is calling the proposed changes concerning transferring NFA firearms and silencers to trusts and corporations. There was a 90 day comment period that closed on Monday, December 9th. AAC has done some investigating and it appears as though ATF has posted a “final action” date of June 2014. Please see below for the full abstract and proposed changes.

http://www.reginfo.gov/public/do/eAgendaViewRule?pubId=201310&RIN=1140-AA43#

Several of our dealers have shared their concerns about how the proposed 41P changes would affect their sales as well as their inventory levels. Based on the information at the link above it appears as though there are at least another six months before any proposed changes would take effect regarding NFA transfers to trusts and/or corporations. AAC urges you to take full advantage of the next six months to sell silencers and short barreled rifles to your customers that choose to use trusts to transfer NFA items.

Please check your inventory levels and let me know if there is anything that you would like to get on order. As we all know, keeping NFA items in stock and ready to transfer is the best way to ensure ongoing SBR and silencer sales.
Click to expand...
 
Kevin_NH said:
The comments on 41P are interesting, particularly the NRA's response:
http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/nra-ila_on_atf_41p_1_.pdf
Click to expand...

I thought this was particularly interesting within the NRA's comments:
"The use of lawfully owned NFA firearms to commit violent crime is exceedingly rare."

and the footnote:

Two cases involved homicides committed by police officers with automatic weapons. See Galliano v. Borough of Seaside Heights, 2007 WL 979850 (D.N.J. 2007) (unpublished); Searcyv. City of Dayton, 38 F.3d 282 (6thCir. 1994).

A third involved a physician who reportedly used a “machine gun and a silencer” registered to him to kill a colleague. See Doctor’s Violent Past Was Kept Hidden, CLEVELAND PLAIN DEALER (Nov. 7, 1998).

The fourth involved a man who apparently was murdered with a .22 cal. handgun equipped with a suppressor that was registered to him and that was believed to have been stolen by his wife.

See Rudin v. State, 86 P.3d 572 (Nev. 2004).

Yet another case involved an attorney with no criminal history who discharged what was described as a “9mm machine gun” during a casino robbery.
See Riebel v. State, 790 P.2d 1004 (Nev. 1990). Whether the firearm was lawfully registered to him or how he otherwise obtained it, however, is not mentioned in the court.
 
either they had or had not processed my 5320--they knew where i lived now so the issue now is that was a different address than originally on the form 1.

that and i added "revocable" to the trust name, which they said no, it must be EXACTLY as written on the trust. so instead of atilla revocable trust, it needed to read "atilla trust" ONLY.

so address, trust name, and then firearm information was incorrect (due to address and trust name being engraved on the receiver).

so small mistakes, but Is must be dotted, Ts crossed. they are serious about this stuff. it didn't help that i moved in the middle of it though. whatever. sent the amended form back along with duplicate copies of a new, printed form if they would rather use that. i'll laugh my ass off if i get a stamp on a printed form with shit highlighted and crossed out everywhere,

appears that they had no issues with the trust and the declaration sheet though, so if a stamp comes to me eventually then i will rock a can when i can afford it.
 
So according to guntrustlawyer, this rule is NOT retroactive. Meaning that any trust created (I assume this also means an appropriate form also submitted using a trust) before the effective date of the rule change in June will not have to adhere to the new requirements of fingerprinting, photos and CLEO signoff for new items that are added to the trust.

http://www.guntrustlawyer.net/proposed-atf-trust-regulation

Anyone else agree with this websites opinion on this? That it is not retroactive?
 
soloman02 said:
So according to guntrustlawyer, this rule is NOT retroactive. Meaning that any trust created (I assume this also means an appropriate form also submitted using a trust) before the effective date of the rule change in June will not have to adhere to the new requirements of fingerprinting, photos and CLEO signoff for new items that are added to the trust.

http://www.guntrustlawyer.net/proposed-atf-trust-regulation

Anyone else agree with this websites opinion on this? That it is not retroactive?
Click to expand...

That's not what the linked site is saying. They're saying that only forms filed after the proposed regulation goes into effect will have to get CLEO signoff etc. The date your trust was formed doesn't matter.
 
Don't trust what any Internet lawyer says, go to the BATFE website and read the text of 41P for yourself.

mlaboss said:
That's not what the linked site is saying. They're saying that only forms filed after the proposed regulation goes into effect will have to get CLEO signoff etc. The date your trust was formed doesn't matter.
Click to expand...
Exactly Thus the mad rush to get as many Forms 1 and 4 into "pending" state as possible before June.
 
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(Assuming PR goes into effect 1JUN)

So, let me get this straight, I can file as many NFA items into my trust before June and everything will be done the way it is done now. Anything filed after June will need fingerprints/hoops for everyone in the trust.
 
Schuyshot said:
(Assuming PR goes into effect 1JUN)

So, let me get this straight, I can file as many NFA items into my trust before June and everything will be done the way it is done now. Anything filed after June will need fingerprints/hoops for everyone in the trust.
Click to expand...

That depends entirely on how the rule is implemented (if it is in fact implemented). Nobody knows what will happen until then. Anything which is in the queue to be processed on the date the rule goes into effect could either be;

1) Grandfathered in and approved as-is, or
2) Rejected and sent back for fingerprints/photos/CLEO signatures.
 
Nobody can state for sure how 41P will affect items in-process.

Schuyshot said:
(Assuming PR goes into effect 1JUN)

So, let me get this straight, I can file as many NFA items into my trust before June and everything will be done the way it is done now. Anything filed after June will need fingerprints/hoops for everyone in the trust.
Click to expand...

Who knows? The date the rules will change, or even whether 41P is implemented at all, is not determined, nor has BATFE suggested what (if anything) in-process will be grandfathered under the old rules.

41P cannot inpact any transfer for which a stamp was already issued before the effective date. People hope that paperwork which is already "pending" will also be unaffected, this is the most likely scenario.

Perhaps transfers where the envelope has been opened and the check cashed, but which aren't already pending, will also be grandfathered? Some really overly optimistic guys are saying that just having the paperwork postmarked by the effective data of the rule change might be sufficient, but I suspect even the people saying this don't actually believe it.
 

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