NFA trust loophole/ CLEO sign off might just be going away after all.

Been patiently waiting to see if it happens. Ive been wanting to do a sbr for too long.
 
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Sounds like much ado about nothing, they've been making noises about this for years. Even if that signoff goes away what difference does it make? It's still going to take forever to get applications processed.

-Mike
 
exodious said:
This doesn't sound like CLEO signoff is going away, it sounds like they want to refuse transfers to trusts.
Click to expand...

However, an online notice said that it will require “responsible persons” designated by the legal trusts to submit forms, photographs and fingerprints to the ATF and forwarded to the local chief police officer. The rule will also define the term “responsible person.”
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I think exodius is right. They are trying to stop the 'end run' of the CLEO's "authority" to deny you your rights.
 
exodious said:
This doesn't sound like CLEO signoff is going away, it sounds like they want to refuse transfers to trusts.
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Eactly this and/or finger printing, photos and background checks of the trustees.

BriMac said:
The CLEO sign off might just be going away.
White House eyes 'gun trust' loophole - The Hill's RegWatch
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That article mentions NOTHING about the CLEO sign-off going away.

ETA: This is from the NFATCA website,

As we noted awhile back... The White House and DOJ/ATF are moving toward a requirement that any entity such as a corporation or trust designate one or more responsible persons, with fingerprint/photo requirements, in order to transfer NFA weapons. This is a work in progress but is getting closer to reality.
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http://www.nfatca.org/
 
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drgrant said:
Sounds like much ado about nothing, they've been making noises about this for years. Even if that signoff goes away what difference does it make? It's still going to take forever to get applications processed.

-Mike
Click to expand...


The Form approval process just got a bit easier with the EForms from the NFA Branch. NFATCA had a member get their Form 3 approved in 9 DAYS. NFA Branch is stating that EForms will have priority over paper Forms.

From the NFATCA Facebook,

This just in from ATF... Another step into modern times!

We're Updating Our eForms Systems

On Wednesday, July 31st, starting at 6:00 PM, ATF’s eForms systems will be undergoing maintenance as part of an ongoing process to enhance our services. During this time, eForms will not be available. These systems are expected to return to full service by 2:00 AM on Thursday, August 1, 2013.

The enhancements to the system will be as follows:

The eForm 6A has been modified to display the “Number and Kind of Package Information” on a separate overflow page. “See overflow page for number and kind of packages” will be displayed in block 9(b) of the form and descriptive information that would normally be displayed in block 9(b) will be displayed on the overflow page. This change was made at the request of industry members who discovered that there was not enough room on the form to put all the information that was necessary in that block. This is another example of where we were able to make a change based on your recommendation.

NFA eForms are finally here!!!! ATF is pleased to announce the implementation of the NFA forms into ATF’s eForms system. ATF Forms 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 9 and 10 are currently available for eForms submission.

The submission of Forms 2, 3, 4, 5 and 9 can only be done by a Federal firearms licensee who has paid the special (occupational) tax for the current Tax Year.

If the submission of the form requires fingerprints, photographs, and the Law Enforcement Certification, the submission cannot be done using eForms – the application must be submitted on paper to the NFA Branch. Accordingly, Forms 1, 4 and 5 may be submitted using eForms if the applicant maker or transferee is a legal entity, such as a corporation, trust, or LLC. The submission of the application will require that the documents establishing the legal entity be attached electronically to the application.

For Forms 1 or 4 that are submitted with making or transfer tax due, the tax payment will be made through Pay.Gov, just prior to the submission of the application. Pay.Gov is a system, of the US Treasury’s Financial Management, that allows the submitter to pay the tax by credit/debit card or from a bank account. For detailed information on Pay.gov you can visit their website at www.pay.gov.
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Link to the ATF-NFA site for dealers, https://www.atfonline.gov/EForms/fa...=196949249081517&_adf.ctrl-state=19qutangwl_4

- - - Updated - - -

BriMac said:
The deal was in past the do away with the CLEO sign off for prints and photos of the responsible persons.
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Do you have a link/cite for that?
 
Here is the actual proposed rule change:

Abstract:

The Department of Justice is proposing to amend the regulations of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) regarding the making or transferring of a firearm under the National Firearms Act. The proposed regulations would (1) add a definition for the term "responsible person"; (2) require each responsible person of a corporation, trust or legal entity to complete a specified form, and to submit photographs and fingerprints; (3) require that a copy of all applications to make or transfer a firearm be forwarded to the chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) of the locality in which the maker or transferee is located; and (4) eliminate the requirement for a certification signed by the CLEO.
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View Rule
 
One variation or another of this has been mentioned for a while now on arfcom...so what? At this point with the check cashed->pending jumping from 1-2 weeks to 2 months it really is anybodys guess how long the process will be 6 months from now. I'm just trying to forget about my form4's...
 
Magic 8 ball says this might not turn out so well.

The latest published rule has replaced (3) & (4) with this:
(3) modify the requirements regarding the certificate of the chief law enforcement officer (CLEO).


Link to the latest rule change


View Rule
 
BriMac said:
Magic 8 ball says this might not turn out so well.

The latest published rule has replaced (3) & (4) with this:
(3) modify the requirements regarding the certificate of the chief law enforcement officer (CLEO).


Link to the latest rule change


View Rule
Click to expand...

Maybe that was done so that they can either give some bureaucrat the power to change it whenever they feel like or they are trying to hide their intentions from us until the last minute.
 
Yes, soloman02 it leaves the door wide open to what the might happen. I dont trust the Dept. of Justice on anything positive for gun owners.
 
I'm waiting on them trying to sneak more stuff into any action they make - most notably, I wonder if they'll change the price. If this e-form thing really happens, it sure shouldn't cost $200 to process...but raising the tax would be a great way to limit the number of applicants. When the stamp was first introduced, $200 was worth a hell of a lot more than it is now.
 
DrRansom said:
I'm waiting on them trying to sneak more stuff into any action they make - most notably, I wonder if they'll change the price. If this e-form thing really happens, it sure shouldn't cost $200 to process...but raising the tax would be a great way to limit the number of applicants. When the stamp was first introduced, $200 was worth a hell of a lot more than it is now.
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And I am pretty sure that is why the tax was instituted in the first place, to keep common folk for playing with NFA stuff.
 
DrRansom said:
I'm waiting on them trying to sneak more stuff into any action they make - most notably, I wonder if they'll change the price. If this e-form thing really happens, it sure shouldn't cost $200 to process...but raising the tax would be a great way to limit the number of applicants. When the stamp was first introduced, $200 was worth a hell of a lot more than it is now.
Click to expand...

Luckily they cannot easily do it since it is codified into the law itself. No bureaucrat has the power to raise the tax. Only congress can. Now, that is not to say someone couldn't slip language into some enormous bill like the immigration bill, but they won't because that would likely be a poison pill kind of provision.

26 USC § 5811 - Transfer tax | Title 26 - Internal Revenue Code | U.S. Code | LII / Legal Information Institute
 
soloman02 said:
Luckily they cannot easily do it since it is codified into the law itself. No bureaucrat has the power to raise the tax. Only congress can. Now, that is not to say someone couldn't slip language into some enormous bill like the immigration bill, but they won't because that would likely be a poison pill kind of provision.

26 USC § 5811 - Transfer tax | Title 26 - Internal Revenue Code | U.S. Code | LII / Legal Information Institute
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Hope that's the case. I need me one of them Ospreys real bad...
 
one-eyed Jack said:
I think that the tax was to nail the Chicago gangsters for tax evasion if they had Thompsons without a tax stamp. Jack.
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While I don't doubt that could have been one of the motivations, at the time $200 was in effect a ban for many (most?) people due to cost, much like the '86 law has made MG's effectively banned for the same reason. It's only because of the massive and nearly complete debasement of the currency that a $200 tax stamp is "affordable".
 
This effectively stops ALL of regions that had non-signing CLEOS from using a trust and getting a MG or suppressor. NFATCA really shot themselves in the foot on this one. FULL background including prints for EVERYONE in a trust and STILL having to get a CLEO to sign or no dice.

THe joke is they want to take the part about a CLEO not knowing that a person will use it for unlawful purposes and the ATF states THAT was the major roadblock for some CLEOS not signing, not the fact they just DONT WANT TO!

Awesome job NFATCA! The regions that were getting around CLEOS are right back into being held hostage.

Morons. Like the ATF wasnt going to cherry pick from your proposal and only agree to the stuff that give MORE control to the government. Glad the idea of "compromise" once again worked for the benefit of gun owners. /sarcasm.................
 
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01SVTvert said:
This effectively stops ALL of regions that had non-signing CLEOS from using a trust and getting a MG or suppressor. NFATCA really shot themselves in the foot on this one. FULL background including prints for EVERYONE in a trust and STILL having to get a CLEO to sign or no dice.

THe joke is they want to take the part about a CLEO not knowing that a person will use it for unlawful purposes and the ATF states THAT was the major roadblock for some CLEOS not signing, not the fact they just DONT WANT TO!

Awesome job NFATCA! The regions that were getting around CLEOS are right back into being held hostage.

Morons. Like the ATF wasnt going to cherry pick from your proposal and only agree to the stuff that give MORE control to the government. Glad the idea of "compromise" once again worked for the benefit of gun owners. /sarcasm.................
Click to expand...

Mass-diver said:
NFATCA sucks so bad :(
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You two need to go do some fact checking instead of slinging crap. What was in the signed executive order was not what NFATCA wanted at all. [thinking]

Their still is no requirement for a CLEO sign off if you have a trust.
 
Acme.Armament said:
You two need to go do some fact checking instead of slinging crap. What was in the signed executive order was not what NFATCA wanted at all. [thinking]

Their still is no requirement for a CLEO sign off if you have a trust.
Click to expand...

They stirred the pot, I know they are trying to backtrack, but it's bullshit. Isn't their president a know ATF rat?

Plus, the new rules WILL require a Cleo sign off for trusts, so it's game over for lots and lots of people.
 

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