No Springfield armory firearms in ma?! now what...(first purchase)

[TonyDedo]

It's not hard to flip that safety off when you draw. It doesn't add ANY time to the draw.

Go to an action shooting match and watch the guys shooting 1911s. These are guys who practice regularly with their guns, and yet not a match goes by when someone doesn't fumble with, miss or forget to flip off their thumb safety. And these are guys who are prepared and know they're about to draw and shoot. Can't imagine what the results are when the shooters aren't prepared.

1911 fanboys love their guns and tend to be super defensive about them. And if that motivates them to put the time and energy in to training with the gun, and they shoot the gun well, than fine. You can't argue with results. But for a new shooter, it's not the best choice - technology has advanced in the last 103+ years, and there are better choices out there. And if a new shooter is making their choice based on the faulty assumption that a manual safety somehow makes a gun more safe, than they need to better educate them self before they make an important decision.

 

[mac1911]

Anxious, adhd and ocd ....... wouldn't a gun with the least amount of manipulation be the better route?
I have no first hand experience with any of those (sorry I do not know the proper term) conditions /ailments?
Wouldn't your adhd be dentramental to remembering to use the safety either off or on? Then would not your ocd keep you in constant "check safety mode"
Anxiety : ??? All this I think a good old DA revolver would fit your needs the best.

 

[Rate_of_Twist]

Go to an action shooting match and watch the guys shooting 1911s. These are guys who practice regularly with their guns, and yet not a match goes by when someone doesn't fumble with, miss or forget to flip off their thumb safety. And these are guys who are prepared and know they're about to draw and shoot. Can't imagine what the results are when the shooters aren't prepared.

Must be IDPA matches, as I've never seen someone miss a safety in USPSA.

I can remember being concerned with safety devices like the OP... What you find with a bit of experience is NONE of the safety features you mentioned mean a damn thing.

That doesn't necessarily mean they are bad features, or you are somehow less a gun owner for having them on your firearm it just means once you realize what you doing you realize YOU are the only one keeping yourself safe.

I would highly recommend some "real" training to the OP. Going to the range and dumping 200 rounds down range is not "training". Drawing from a holster should be done daily in controlled settings at home. A good holster is a must ( and every bit as important as the gun that's in it )

For the record, I own 1911's and glocks /m&p's

 

[TonyDedo]

Must be IDPA matches, as I've never seen someone miss a safety in USPSA.

Well played, sir.

 

[TonyDedo]

I can remember being concerned with safety devices like the OP... What you find with a bit of experience is NONE of the safety features you mentioned mean a damn thing.

That doesn't necessarily mean they are bad features, or you are somehow less a gun owner for having them on your firearm it just means once you realize what you doing you realize YOU are the only one keeping yourself safe.

Between the influence of the prolific 1911 and the portrayal of firearms in film and the media, I think it's easy for a novice or lay person to develop an inherent misunderstanding of the role of the "safety." We're taught to think that all guns have manual safeties, and that a gun is somehow unsafe it the safety isn't turned on. I encounter this with students and new shooters all the time; they're at the range shooting a gun for the first time, and the first thing they want to know is how to turn off the safety. You say "we don't need a safety" or "there isn't one" and it blows their mind.

Bottom line is that all guns have at least one safety, some have many, and they're not all switches that turn on and off. But the most important safeties are the one in between your thumb and middle finger, and the one between your ears. That's one of the hardest lessons to teach.

 

[20 PAWS]

You will be better served by getting a full size handgun and learning to shoot it. Take some IDPA classes and learn to shoot under pressure. You have a responsibility to yourself and others around you to proficiently handle a handgun in tense situations. Learn the basic skills of manipulating a full sized weapon , this will provide muscle memory and establish proficient shooting skills. When you are comfortable, and have a complete understanding, then purchase a concealed weapon. Then start all over again. My 2 cents.

 

[VTHunter]

I am new to shooting and looking for a conceal carry option, I have really taken a liking to the 1911 platform but would prefer a 9mm and something compact for my first purchase, to both keep costs down and personal preference.

I recently tried to purchase a Springfield M1A online with a reputable dealer. They responded as follows:

 

[Rate_of_Twist]

I recently tried to purchase a Springfield M1A online with a reputable dealer. They responded as follows:
View attachment 100872

Which has absolutely nothing to do with the OP purchasing a handgun in any way...

 

[TonyDedo]

I recently tried to purchase a Springfield M1A online with a reputable dealer. They responded as follows:
View attachment 100872

This isn't surprising. MA gun laws are so ****ed up, and the market for firearms and related products is so small, that it's not worth the time, headache and risk for most companies to bother doing business at all in Massachusetts. Can't say that I blame them.

 

[Roxor]

The main thing Im hearing from everyone is training. And I respect and agree with that. I understand being new to the hobby/lifestyle I face many challenges. Professional training will be done, and I assure not just dumping rounds down the range either. Again I have a firearms school I will be going to, and will be practicing what I am taught daily, even with just snap caps when live training and fire is not available. I will reconsider the revolvers. I am NOT a diehard 1911 fan, I have shot a few I liked and really do like the grip safety. can anyone recommend a reasonable carryable revolver? I do not plan on going out and buying something to stuff in my waist band and just suddenly beleive I am invincible. I know it will take me months before I am comfortable, years before I am proficient, and will never in a lifetime have received enough training. I didnt mean to start a safety vs no safety argument. Just a general help on a new purchase and point the new guy in a decent direction.

 

[Rate_of_Twist]

The main thing Im hearing from everyone is training. And I respect and agree with that. I understand being new to the hobby/lifestyle I face many challenges. Professional training will be done, and I assure not just dumping rounds down the range either. Again I have a firearms school I will be going to, and will be practicing what I am taught daily, even with just snap caps when live training and fire is not available. I will reconsider the revolvers. I am NOT a diehard 1911 fan, I have shot a few I liked and really do like the grip safety. can anyone recommend a reasonable carryable revolver? I do not plan on going out and buying something to stuff in my waist band and just suddenly beleive I am invincible. I know it will take me months before I am comfortable, years before I am proficient, and will never in a lifetime have received enough training. I didnt mean to start a safety vs no safety argument. Just a general help on a new purchase and point the new guy in a decent direction.

I wouldn't worry to much, this is about as tame as NES gets... No arguing at all so far

The only point everyone one is trying to tell you is the external safety features are only part of a purchase and carry decision and are just that "features". What makes the difference is the person that's operating it

 

[ThePreBanMan]

thumb safety = yuck...

Unless it's a 1911 cocked, locked, and ready to rock, a thumb safety is not needed. It's probably a hindrance to you if/when you ever need to deploy under stress. Modern pistol designs with a trigger safety, firing pin blocks, DA/SA, etc. don't need it.

 

[Djharpin]

Rock Island offers a commander sized 1911 in 9mm, there was one in the classifieds here recently. Not a common first gun by any means but fits your description. Then of course the M&P, which you can buy with a thumb safety. An FNS-9 would also be an option but not a common find here in the PR.

 

[Roxor]

ok guys, going to probably head down this weekend or next, Will be making a list of what I would like to shoot and test out with an instructor.

Adding the sr9c and shield.
S&W revolver (thinking 673 suggestions welcome esp. if under $500)
will fire a glock just to say I have (those are above my price point but if I love it I will save longer)
and a Walther PPS

any other recommendations? A full size will be happening when I start to get into hobby shooting as well and once funds allow, again I am not running out to buy something to carry, this will all be happening over the next few months.

 

[exo]

ok guys, going to probably head down this weekend or next, Will be making a list of what I would like to shoot and test out with an instructor.

Adding the sr9c and shield.
S&W revolver (thinking 673 suggestions welcome esp. if under $500)
will fire a glock just to say I have (those are above my price point but if I love it I will save longer)
and a Walther PPS

any other recommendations? A full size will be happening when I start to get into hobby shooting as well and once funds allow, again I am not running out to buy something to carry, this will all be happening over the next few months.

If you can't try a free state model you'll probably hate the Walther PPS. The MA model has the most ridiculously heavy trigger pull I've ever felt on a striker fired gun.

 

[Cap]

if you are going to consider a revolver, you can include the ruger LCR + SP101 and S&W 442/642 in your testing.

 

[TonyDedo]

ok guys, going to probably head down this weekend or next, Will be making a list of what I would like to shoot and test out with an instructor.

Adding the sr9c and shield.
S&W revolver (thinking 673 suggestions welcome esp. if under $500)
will fire a glock just to say I have (those are above my price point but if I love it I will save longer)
and a Walther PPS

any other recommendations? A full size will be happening when I start to get into hobby shooting as well and once funds allow, again I am not running out to buy something to carry, this will all be happening over the next few months.

This is the most important piece of information I'll give someone buying their first gun: Don't be cheap.

Regardless of they type of gun you end up buying, don't sacrifice the right gun for you in order to save a couple bucks. You'll just be unhappy with the gun (which will discourage you from practicing and training), and it will hinder your development, it will decrease your effectiveness, and in the end will cost you more when you spend a bunch of money trying to fix or modify it, realize your mistake and end up buying the right gun anyway. Trust me, I see this all the time.

I'm not saying you need to go out and spend a ton of money on a high end gun (quite the opposite, actually). But (in the case of your example above) if it turns out the GLOCK is the right gun for you, it's worth paying an extra $300 over what the other guns might cost in order to have the right gun. That $300 is a drop in the bucket in the long run - it amounts to, what, 20 boxes of ammo?

And the grand scheme of things, regardless of what you buy, the gun you purchase will out shoot you, out last you, and one day may very well save your life. It's not something you want to be cheap about.

 

[Roxor]

If you can't try a free state model you'll probably hate the Walther PPS. The MA model has the most ridiculously heavy trigger pull I've ever felt on a striker fired gun.

I went to New hampshire with a buddy last night (he was looking for 30-06 ammo) and ended up picking a few up to get a feeler. Held a PPS and LOVED the feel of it and the trigger felt smooth.... It was Non MA Compliant so that must be why...


But yes I am reconsidering Revolvers now after doing more resears on the hammer-block safety and such. Have not shot or heard much about 38 special. From what I understand its not as easy to find? and is a bit more expensive? But did handle a S&W J Frame cannot remember model number.

I understand I was being more level headed earlier. Also, Tony I get the cash thing, I know I will find "the one" and have it be out of my budget, I just hope to get something I can comfortably shoot and not break the bank. there is a sidepot for firearms funds after I make my first purchase to endlessly throw cash at until I find that one. BUT I do agree 100% with you, Right now I am just trying to keep the budget under 500, so even if I can get something used and in good condition, I think I should be ok in that price range right? Also, Can you point me in a direction for info on the Glocks and MA compliance? Im very confused and everything I read contradicts what I read right before it!

 

[TonyDedo]

I would not recommend a J frame revolver to a new shooter. They're great guns for what they're designed to do, but notoriously difficult to shoot, and not the sort of gun you want to use to try to learn the fundamentals. If you're interested in a revolver, you want a full size model chambered in .357 magnum with at least a 4" barrel and adjustable rear sights: look at the S&W 686 or the Ruger GP100.

A .357 magnum revolver will chamber both .38 special and .357 magnum rounds. .38 special is very common, has about the same power/recoil as 9mm, and used to be priced about the same as 9mm (it's been a while since I bought some, so I can't say for sure what current prices are). It makes for great practice ammo, and you can use it for defensive ammo (use JHP rounds for defense) if you're recoil sensitive.

On the other hand, .357 is much more powerful and more expensive, but is considered an ideal defensive round.

Most people will buy a .357 magnum revolver, practice with .38 special rounds, and carry .357 JHP rounds for defense. My first gun was a Smith & Wesson 686 with a 4" barrel.

Perfect example:
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/247162-WTS-S-amp-W-Model-19-3

 

[M1911]

Go to an action shooting match and watch the guys shooting 1911s. These are guys who practice regularly with their guns, and yet not a match goes by when someone doesn't fumble with, miss or forget to flip off their thumb safety.

Really?

I'm an IDPA SO. I have competed regularly in IDPA for the past three+ years and occasionally in USPSA. I've never seen someone fumble their safety. As an SO, I see a lot shooters up close and personal. I regularly see misfeeds, misfires, dropped mags, double-feeds, etc. I've seen people do a tacload, then cycle the slide, dropping a perfectly good round at their feet. I see newcomers pulling the trigger after the slide has locked to the rear, wondering why the gun isn't firing, before finally realizing that they are empty and have to reload. I've seen a few squib loads (mine). I've seen a master-level shooter have his hand slip off the slide during an emergency reload -- twice during the same reload.

But I've never seen someone draw a 1911 or similar gun with the safety on and forget to the depress the safety. I've never seen one of them forget to turn on the safety before holstering.

The past couple years I have worked the MetroWest Tactical IDPA intro class as an SO. On both occasions I watched 30 brand new action shooters, including some with 1911s. More than a few of them had a case of buzzer-induced amnesia (as well had when new). But none of these new action shooters fumbled the safety.

I'm not saying that it is impossible to fumble the safety. Nor am I discounting that you need to practice operating the safety so that you will do it without thinking under stress. You do need to practice using it.

I often see people make one of two absolute statements:

• Guns without manual safeties are unsafe.
• You won't be able to operate a manual safety under the stress of a gunfight.

I don't agree with either of those statements.

 

[M1911]

Roxor:

Where do you live in MA? If you are willing to take a trip to Harvard Sportsmen's Club, I'll bring revolvers (small and large), 1911s, Glocks, Kahrs, a Sig and an HK for you to try. You'll need to reimburse me a bit for ammo, but that's all.

I think if you get some hands-on experience, you'll learn more about what you like and why.

 

[M1911]

Is that true even in series 80 type models? Or is that what you mean by "most" (I'd have thought there'd be more series 80 types out there now)?

Colt Series 80 (and later) guns have a firing pin block that is activated by pulling the trigger. ParaOrdnance, Remington, and SIG use a Series 80 style action. These guns are drop safe. But even adding up all of these guns, I don't think they are the majority of the 1911 market.

For a while, Kimber and S&W made 1911s with Swartz-style firing pin blocks which are activated by depressing the grip safety, but as far as I know, both have returned to a Series 70 style action.

The majority of 1911 manufacturers build Series 70 style guns. Springfield, Ruger, Kimber Series I, Wilson, Baer, Ed Brown, etc., are all Series 70 style guns. These guns are not drop safe. You can reduce the chance of them firing when dropped by installing a lighter, titanium firing pin and an extra power firing pin spring. Gunsmith Drake Oldham performed drop testing of Series 70 style 1911s and tested the efficacy of lighter firing pins: http://vuurwapenblog.com/2010/11/23/1911-drop-testing/

It is easy to tell a Series 70 style 1911 from a Series 80 style. Just remove the slide and look at the rear underside of the slide. If you see a circular plunger like this:

Along with a lever on the frame that depresses that plunger:

 

[M1911]

I'm just saying there is no reason to mock someone who feels more comfortable with that extra safety feature.

I'm not mocking anyone in this thread, but I think you are.

I didn't say or imply that the OP is an idiot. He has said that he is inexperienced with guns and it appears to me that his desire for a manual safety is not based on fully understanding the issues. If he can articulate why he thinks he must have a safety, then we can either agree with or disagree with him on a more concrete basis.

 

[M1911]

Some of the safety levers in use are small and difficult to deactivate. That's why I suggested a 1911. Even though the platform is flawed in a lot of other ways, if someone's gotta have a manual safety, it is by far one of the best implemented designs out there.

Yes, indeed. As much as I like 1911s, they do have issues, but the 1911 manual safety is one of the best around.

There are guns with manual safeties that are just plain hard to operate under stress. For example, the slide-mounted safeties on Beretta 92s and S&W Third Generations just suck, IMO. They are two high up to be easily reached with your thumb, and being on the slide they can be accidentally turned on while cycling the slide during a reload.

 

[Coyote33]

ok guys, going to probably head down this weekend or next, Will be making a list of what I would like to shoot and test out with an instructor.

Adding the sr9c and shield.
S&W revolver (thinking 673 suggestions welcome esp. if under $500)
will fire a glock just to say I have (those are above my price point but if I love it I will save longer)
and a Walther PPS

any other recommendations? A full size will be happening when I start to get into hobby shooting as well and once funds allow, again I am not running out to buy something to carry, this will all be happening over the next few months.

Revolver Recommendations

Lots of variety here:

Charter Arms

I like the Charter Arms, but am not 100% hooked on them yet. Not sure of reliability or warranty.

 

[Roxor]

M1911, I may take you up on that offer in one of the upcoming weekends, I am in gardner. I do have a free range pass with rentals and an insttructor im going to burn up soon as I am limited on funds right now. Unfortunately we are in the middle of a move right now (gardner to gardner) so everything is crazy for the next month or so. I most likely will not be purchasing for at least 1-2 months.

My friend may be letting me make use of a 22 for range time so its cheaper for now, and I am going to have a sit down with another friend this weekend most likely this weekend and go through the motions on his M&p 9 full size. He has also offered that one to me for the range + carry kit at a reasonable price (sub $500) when I do get the license, so if a fullsize is the best way to go now and get a conceal later, I may end up doing that. He has put maybe 200 rounds through it then was given an edbrowning 1911 from an uncle and now never uses it.

also, watched a couple of hickocks videos on the 686. If that fires both 357 and 38 special, that is not a bad buy at all.

 

[M1911]

Good luck with the move. Let me know if you'd like to hot the range with me after your move.

A full size gun is easier for learning marksmanship than a compact gun. The extra weight at the muzzle will somewhat reduce muzzle climb, and the extra weight overall will somewhat reduce recoil. The longer sight radius helps as well.

A compact gun is decent to learn on, but I would recommend against a subcompact.

If the M&P he is offering you is a MA model, it will have a stupidly heavy trigger that is almost unusable. That is easily fixed with a drop-in kit from Apex.

Any .357 revolver can also shoot .38 Spcl, just not vice versa. Personally, I prefer the somewhat lighter K-frame (Model 19 and 66) over the L-frame. I've got three K-frames, two 4" and one 2.5".

 

[Roxor]

The MP is a MA model. I loved the palm swells and how easy it was to take down. Would a MP 9 C be a decent compromise between the shield and the mp full size? that one day I will be able to carry easier? The trigger was heavy, but I didnt mind it that much. I was told when taking my course and by a few buddies that I tend to anticipate the shot less with a heavier pull and am much more accurate. I was honestly more accurate with the revolver than the auto. The more and more I think about it the 357 may be the better bet for me, but ammo is more expensive and my buddy will be reloading 9mm soon.

 

[jasons]

With a manual safety I have a second step I have to perform before pulling the trigger. Being someone with both adhd and mild ocd, as well as high anxiety, the manual safety gives me a more methodical checklist of :unholster,acquire sites, place finger on side, remove safety, place finger in trigger frame, fire.

FWIW you should practice disengaging the thumb safety on the draw. (Training.)

I also have a family friend who is missing a finger due to a firearms accident, 30 years using them (LEO and professionaly trained) and he was simply reholstering from one to another, while holstering the leather caught the trigger and activated it. he shot himself in the hand. Should his firearm have been equipped mith a manual safety, this MAY not have happened. I understand equipment maintenance and safe handling practices are key. I also understand that regardless of how much training, persistence and preventative maintenance happens, human error is still always there.

How the F did he get his hand in front of the muzzle while holstering? This would seem to call his "professional training" into question. (And just because he is / was a LEO means nothing. I've seen more than a few cops who were completely clueless on the firing line.)

Also I will be receiving professional training and logging hours upon hours at a certain location with a highly trained instructor (Dont know how this forum is about dropping business names). It wont be just some joe schmoe

You can name him if you want.

 

[Stumpthumper]

I carry an sr9c and love it. It's a great do it all gun. Small enough to carry, but large enough to take to the range and enjoy. I also picked up full size sr9 mags and the sr9c grip covers for them...so if I feel like shooting with a full size grip it gives me that option. The sr9c is about $425+ /- new.