Obama to shoot down armed pilots

[Acujeff]

This month's issue of NRA's First Freedom has an article by Dave Kopel revealing another "under the radar" anti-gun action that has been covered up by the major media.

The Obama administration’s hostility toward firearms is endangering the safety of everyone who flies—and everyone who does not. Although the administration wasted trillions of taxpayer dollars to reward its political allies, the administration is now attempting to gut the armed pilots program, supposedly to save money.

Full article at:

http://www.nrapublications.org/index.php/13282/poof/

 

[MilitaryPolice]

As long as these pilots are trained (and when I say trained I mean drilled to be 100% acurate with every single shot, because as we all know a missed shot on a plane easily spells doom for everyone on board at 36k feet) but other than that, I think he's making a dumb decision.

 

[n1bsbri]

because as we all know a missed shot on a plane easily spells doom for everyone on board at 36k feet)

Do you have a source for that information? Because I don't think a 1/2" hole (or several) through the skin of the aircraft would do anything bad.

 

[MilitaryPolice]

Pressure loss? no?

 

[blindfire]

As long as these pilots are trained (and when I say trained I mean drilled to be 100% acurate with every single shot, because as we all know a missed shot on a plane easily spells doom for everyone on board at 36k feet) but other than that, I think he's making a dumb decision.

They use special rounds that won't penetrate the skin of the plane. My dad used to carry a .38 when he served in a NAC Unit in the '80s while in the Navy. It was something similar to this : http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/frangible.htm Frangible Rounds.

By gutting, you mean cutting the budget from $25 million to $12 million in FY2013??? It's not going away...it's just being cut back...like everything else will hopefully be.

Better question, we do we have to pay for it. I don't fly all that often. Let the airlines pay for it and they can charge the passenger's a few pennies more. Kinda like the argument that some here use regarding taxes and schools.

 

[joeendris]

Pressure loss? no?

Nope, nothing worth noting. Mythbusters did a show specifically on this.

http://mythbustersresults.com/episode10

 

[CosmicIrony]

Do you have a source for that information? Because I don't think a 1/2" hole (or several) through the skin of the aircraft would do anything bad.

Mythbusters did a show on this (they used a scrap plane and shot various holes in it), and the explosive decompression thing is just not true. Even if you shoot a hole in a window, the air loss is gradual. Obviously a shot into the electronics would be a bad thing, but I'd expect the pilot to be firing in the other direction!

 

[johnN]

Do you have a source for that information? Because I don't think a 1/2" hole (or several) through the skin of the aircraft would do anything bad.

but it does in the movies

 

[bmach]

But myth busters did not allow for the speed of the plane helping to peel back the skin of the plane!!!!

 

[Rob Boudrie]

As long as these pilots are trained (and when I say trained I mean drilled to be 100% acurate with every single shot, because as we all know a missed shot on a plane easily spells doom for everyone on board at 36k feet) but other than that, I think he's making a dumb decision.

Borders on anti-gun propaganda.

1. Pilots use their HK40 as a last nine of defense against a cockpit breech. I don't think they are allowed to have the gun unlocked and/or unloaded except on the flight deck.

2. A pilot would typically be shooting with his/her back to the instrument panel. The chances of an errant shot taking down a plane, while slim, is still less than letting a religious ambassador who managed to get into the cockpit take over to use plane to take direct ride to his god. Explosive decompression from a .40 caliber bullet hole is a myth.

 

[TomH]

Mythbusters did a show on this (they used a scrap plane and shot various holes in it), and the explosive decompression thing is just not true. Even if you shoot a hole in a window, the air loss is gradual. Obviously a shot into the electronics would be a bad thing, but I'd expect the pilot to be firing in the other direction!

Mythbusters is often completely hack. You don't need their ridiculously inadequate tests if you just use real engineering, physics, and science.

 

[whatluck]

No, decompression will cause some nosebleeds and some headaches, and the wussiest of us will barf and pass out, but the theory that the plane will fall apart just isn't true. Just shoot low velocity with frangable rounds and hit your target and the round won't leave the perp's brain.

 

[hpm]

Pressure loss? no?

Bullet holes won't do much to an airliner - Aloha Airlines Flight 243 was still able to land with THAT hole:

 

[usp45ct]

I gotta be honest with you, I travel for work a lot and I do not feel safer knowing some of these pilots are armed. Some one said it earlier, as long as they are trained. How much training can they possibly have? Is aa gunsight course one a year enough? Perhaps them shooting 1000 rounds a month in a high stress close quarter range would suffice? My point is I know entirely to many trained cops that put out maybe 100 rounds a year and are considered trained. So my question is, how trained are the pilots?

 

[KMM696]

I gotta be honest with you, I travel for work a lot and I do not feel safer knowing some of these pilots are armed. Some one said it earlier, as long as they are trained. How much training can they possibly have? Is aa gunsight course one a year enough? Perhaps them shooting 1000 rounds a month in a high stress close quarter range would suffice? My point is I know entirely to many trained cops that put out maybe 100 rounds a year and are considered trained. So my question is, how trained are the pilots?

So, you want them to do more than a week at FLETC and requals twice a year. You do realize that their primary job is still flying the plane, right?

 

[ShadeWPI]

But myth busters did not allow for the speed of the plane helping to peel back the skin of the plane!!!!

Actually, they did when they "revisited" the myth. Still no dice.

If a pilot wants to be armed and is willing to go through the training to ensure an effective and accurate shot, let him be armed. The only valid argument for the government to be footing the bill for the training is to provide it through the Air Marshal's program. Despite only using their firearms once in the history of the Air Marshal's program, they have the highest qualifications standards of any federal program outside elite special operations command forces, who don't publish their qualification requirements.

The point on the frangible low-velocity ammo is accurate. I saw a live demonstration of a S&W .40 shooting frangible ammunition into an airline seat and the 3 rounds failled to penetrate the plastic on the back of the seat. The remaining 12 rounds were fired at a wall section, they blow away the plastic "inner hull" but barely blemished the outer aluminum skin.

 

[Jose]

But myth busters did not allow for the speed of the plane helping to peel back the skin of the plane!!!!

Wow, we are full of aerospace and mechanical engineers today......

 

[MilitaryPolice]

Did some reasearch...i.e. google. And What I found is that bullet holes through the body of the plane doesn't really pose a threat, but if one got a window then you would have catastrophic loss of pressure people barfing, passing out, and maybe it being ripped apart like that Aloha flight. See the story about how those old 50's comet airliners kept crashing...window failure.

 

[ochmude]

They use special rounds that won't penetrate the skin of the plane. My dad used to carry a .38 when he served in a NAC Unit in the '80s while in the Navy. It was something similar to this : http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/frangible.htm Frangible Rounds.

They use the same Federal HST that everyone was freaking out about from that "DHS is stockpiling ammo" thing. I sometimes at lunch with them at FLETC and they said they were using Winchester Ranger but were switching to HST.

 

[Cardinal Ximinez]

I gotta be honest with you, I travel for work a lot and I do not feel safer knowing some of these pilots are armed. Some one said it earlier, as long as they are trained. How much training can they possibly have? Is aa gunsight course one a year enough? Perhaps them shooting 1000 rounds a month in a high stress close quarter range would suffice? My point is I know entirely to many trained cops that put out maybe 100 rounds a year and are considered trained. So my question is, how trained are the pilots?

I see your point; however, you already handed them your life when you got on the plane. Is arming them to fend off an attack on the cockpit that much more risk to take?

 

[Horrible]

This action cuts $6M out of the budget? Didn't they spend more money watching shrimp run on treadmills last year?!

 

[rlee]

I stopped looking at Mythbusters as more than entertainment when they used a 3" cannon firing at a plywood & 2x4 frame to dispel the "myth" of splinter damage in 18th century warship battles. Even their demonstration of the Tueller drill was unconvincing -- and I already believed it.

 

[TBalls]

Did some reasearch...i.e. google. And What I found is that bullet holes through the body of the plane doesn't really pose a threat, but if one got a window then you would have catastrophic loss of pressure people barfing, passing out, and maybe it being ripped apart like that Aloha flight. See the story about how those old 50's comet airliners kept crashing...window failure.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and propose that current production airliners are not constructed the same way the Comet was. From my brief research (read: Wikipedia), it seems that they suffered from catastrophic metal fatigue due to poorly designed windows & faulty installation techniques.

 

[chinalfr]

What a way to promote "Fly the Friendly skies"

 

[ShadeWPI]

Did some reasearch...i.e. google. And What I found is that bullet holes through the body of the plane doesn't really pose a threat, but if one got a window then you would have catastrophic loss of pressure people barfing, passing out, and maybe it being ripped apart like that Aloha flight. See the story about how those old 50's comet airliners kept crashing...window failure.

MP,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Comet

Failure of the Comet airplanes in the 50s was not due to explosive decompression of a window, but due to poor window shape and structural engineering resulting in fracture propagation around the square window corners through the structural members. The structure around the window weakened following repeated pressurized flights until the structure around the window failed and blew out rather than a failure of the window itself causing an explosive decompression that resulted in structural failure of the airplane.

The pressure difference between the interior of an airplane in flight and the exterior is only 5-10psi. Your car tires are pressurized 25-30psi over exterior air and still don't experience explosive decompression.

 

[usp45ct]

So, you want them to do more than a week at FLETC and requals twice a year. You do realize that their primary job is still flying the plane, right?

My point exactly, their job is to fly the plain, not train to be anti terrorist forces. Instead, if they think they are being attacked, depressurize the cabin to the point where everybody in back is knocked out, at least on smaller regional flights. Privitise the Tsa and use the remaining cash to bolster the Air Marshalls program for flights longer that say six hours, or where an emergency landing is not feasable like over the ocean.

 

[drgrant]

and when I say trained I mean drilled to be 100% acurate with every single shot, because as we all know a missed shot on a plane easily spells doom for everyone on board at 36k feet

God, make it stop!!!! it won't die!!!!!

 

[drgrant]

They use special rounds that won't penetrate the skin of the plane.

This is another myth that NEEDS TO DIE, too.

Not sure what they have now but for awhile but FAMs used to carry Speer 125gr GDHPs in .357 Sig... the same stuff someone on the ground might use.

The reality is that a small gunfight on a large jet is probably is not going to result in it crashing. (well, unless the people driving the plane get taken out!)

-Mike

 

[Jose]

So my question is, how trained are the pilots?

How trained do you need to be to shoot someone in the chest while they are trying to come in through a small doorway?

Holy hell, I'm amazed at how people overthink this shit.

- - - Updated - - -

They use special rounds that won't penetrate the skin of the plane.

 

[Jose]

My point exactly, their job is to fly the plain, not train to be anti terrorist forces. Instead, if they think they are being attacked, depressurize the cabin to the point where everybody in back is knocked out, at least on smaller regional flights. Privitise the Tsa and use the remaining cash to bolster the Air Marshalls program for flights longer that say six hours, or where an emergency landing is not feasable like over the ocean.

Put the friggin crack pipe down. Please.

- - - Updated - - -

Did some reasearch...i.e. google. And What I found is that bullet holes through the body of the plane doesn't really pose a threat, but if one got a window then you would have catastrophic loss of pressure people barfing, passing out, and maybe it being ripped apart like that Aloha flight. See the story about how those old 50's comet airliners kept crashing...window failure.

Stop. Please stop.

Your grasp of engineering fundamentals is tenous at best and less than zero at worst.