Pistol tac reload - which do you use and why

[andy t]

During my first class three years ago, we were taught that if there is a need to "top off" a pistol during a "lull" in a gunfight, use a "reload with retention" technique - where a partially empty magazine is removed and stowed. A fresh magazine is then draw and loaded into the pistol. Some benefits to this technique: It's easier to manipulate one magazine at a time, especially under stress. The motion for speed load and "tactical load" are the same. There is also the notion that the original "tac reload" - where you hold both magazines in support hand - dates back to early Gunsite days of expensive 1911 magazines and gravel surface.
However, there are still trainers that advocate - sometimes with strong words - the use of classical "tac load" - where you retrieve a fully loaded magazine first, then you remove a partially full magazine and insert the full magazine into the pistol. The common theme is that your pistol is out of the fight for a shorter duration since you are not going from your waist or wherever the spare magazine is. However, given that juggling two magazines by the magwell is a rather tricky endeavor, I don't think it's much of a win over reload with retention. The only argument for "tac load" I heard that I buy is this: In a fluid situation you may loose track of how many spare magazines you have. So if you do a reload with retention, and stow your partially loaded magazine somewhere inaccesible ( behind your shirt, etc) and then, as you go to retrieve the fully loaded magazine, it's not there. You are in deep doodoo.
Still, I am more in favor of "reload with retention" technique. I wonder what other people's thoughts and techniques are.

Thanks.

 

[skol]

In IDPA I usually retain the partial mag then get a fresh one, and I've had trainers instruct to grab a fresh mag then switch, holding both - advocating that if you drop or don't have any mags left, then you have to re-insert your partial mag to get back in the game.

For me, both are easy and I don't have problems doing either under "simulated" stress so YRMV.

 

[jkelly]

In IDPA, if there is movement right after the reload then I do a tack reload (If I've gamed the stage), think Classifier Stage 3 String 2. I'll defer to others for the real world.

Respectfully,
jkelly

 

[M1911]

I've been taught several different methods for doing a tac reload, in several different classes. I usually carry (I know you're surprised) a 1911 of one form or another. So the magazines are relatively thin. But the mag well is also not that big, and my left hand has just never been that coordinated.

So I use a reload with retention. I grab the mag out of the gun with my left hand, stuff it in my back rear pocket (gotta love these stupid "tactical" pants with scoop pockets that everyone makes fun of), grab a new magazine and load it into the gun.

I understand the arguments in favor of a tactical reload. But I can do a reload with retention all day long without dropping a magazine at my feet. I can't say the same for the various methods of tac reloads. YMMV.

 

[jar]

I do RWRs in IDPA. Most of my defensive training has focused on emergency reloads. I don't see much use for the tactical load. If I think I'm likely to need to fire soon, I'm not going to fumble with multiple mags, I'm just going to do an IPSC style speed load. If I don't, ie behind cover with no threats in sight, a RWR is plenty fast enough.

 

[JimConway]

A tactical reload should be done only if all of three of the folowing conditions are present.

You are behind cover,

You need the partial magazine, and

You have the time to do it,

If you do not have all three, then do an emergency reload.
This is the current Gunsite doctrine as of a couple of years ago.

 

[M1911]

A tactical reload should be done only if all of three of the folowing conditions are present.

You are behind cover,

You need the partial magazine, and

You have the time to do it,

If you do not have all three, then do an emergency reload.
This is the current Gunsite doctrine as of a couple of years ago.

In that situation, I'd still do a reload with retention -- I'm less likely to fumble a reload with retention than a tactical reload. YMMV.

 

[JimConway]

My tactical reloads are always with retention.
By that I mean the I remove and stow the partial magazine and then insert a full magazine.
Under stress, the chance of dropping either of the mags is way too high in a traditional tactical reload.
Besides a reload with retention is much faster.
The only things to consider about a reload with retention is that you will have a 1 shot gun for a longer time and if your gun has a magazine disconnect you will have a no shot gun for a longer time

 

[Jose]

I think an option that bears consideration is to just do an emergency reload and if time permits pick up the partially full magazine and put it in a pocket. If time doesn't permit, it's already gone and not a worry.

Speaking of IDPA, I got a procedural in two different stages of the Indiana IDPA championship (yesterday) for the same reason: commencing a reload of an empty pistol while in moving to cover. IDPA rules require that you move to cover with an empty gun before initiaing a reload. I simply cannot wrap my head around that concept and instinctively start my reload the moment I realize the pistol is empty (slide lock or revolver clicks) regardless of where I am. If moving to cover is necessary, I move, but I move while reloading.

 

[jar]

Speaking of IDPA, I got a procedural in two different stages of the Indiana IDPA championship (yesterday) for the same reason: commencing a reload of an empty pistol while in moving to cover. IDPA rules require that you move to cover with an empty gun before initiaing a reload. I simply cannot wrap my head around that concept and instinctively start my reload the moment I realize the pistol is empty (slide lock or revolver clicks) regardless of where I am. If moving to cover is necessary, I move, but I move while reloading.

I agree that that's an asinine rule. I agree that all non-empty loads should be done behind cover, but waiting to reload an empty gun is stupid. I think the rulebook should be changed, but in the meantime, the solution is better stage design. If cover is provided sooner, I have no problem with procedurals for running the gun dry in the open when the shooter could have performed a tac load earlier.

 

[JimConway]

Jar has pointed out one basic problem with IDPA type matches. This is a problem with all matches that claim to be tactical. That is the need to score the match and have a winner. To win you must shoot well in the least time. A few years ago a group of Gunsite graduates set up an elaborate optional "Fun House Type" stage at a major IDPA match. about 100 shooters shot this stage and 90% of them were judged to have died.

As long an you can differentiate between real life and a game, you are fine. I know quite a few shooters that choose to shoot IDPA matches using real world tactics and accept their procedural penalties and their losing gracefully. They are getting good training. With that said, any trigger time is good trigger time. Please do not think that i am down on IDPA, because I am not. In fact, I have been an IDPA member for a lot of years

 

[IPSC_DRL]

People are teaching this?

During my first class three years ago, we were taught that if there is a need to "top off" a pistol during a "lull" in a gunfight,

Be sure to practice this beacuse it happens all the time............

 

[Gonzo]

Be sure to practice this beacuse it happens all the time............

You don't go to the mall to play Mortal Kombat often enough.

 

[P-14]

Be sure to practice this beacuse it happens all the time............

Sometimes, the gun runs out of bullets. Reloading during a lull minimizes this.

If you're serious about survival, you'll reload when there's an opportunity and "play" the way you practice.

 

[JimConway]

This weekend Dave Harrington commented that the reload from slide lock was the most common in his experience

 

[soloman02]

I am not familiar with all the tacticool terms so I'll explain it without them:

In the NRA home protection class I took recently, the instructors recommended reloading when either the slide locks back (obviously) or if the mag is partially empty (and behind cover of course) to reload with a new full mag and discard the partial mag at your feet.

 

[Jose]

if the mag is partially empty (and behind cover of course) to reload with a new full mag and discard the partial mag at your feet.

Do not follow their advice to discard the partially empty mag. If you have time to top off the pistol, you have time to shove that partial mag in a pocket.

 

[M1911]

I am not familiar with all the tacticool terms so I'll explain it without them:

The "tacticool" terms can be useful at times, ensuring that we are on the same page.

In the NRA home protection class I took recently, the instructors recommended reloading when either the slide locks back (obviously) or if the mag is partially empty (and behind cover of course) to reload with a new full mag and discard the partial mag at your feet.

You may need those extra cartridges. As an NRA instructor certified to teach Personal Protection in the Home, I suggest that you stow that partial magazine in your pocket, rather than discard it at your feet.

 

[JimConway]

A police SWAT officer, that I train with, mentioned an embarrassing incident about dropping a mag at your feet. He did just that and the mag landed on the linoleum floor. Murphy then got involved as he stepped on said mag. Down he went. Luckily, this was a training exercise and nothing was hurt except his ego. He now throws the mag to the rear and out of his intended path.

Just some to think about and not very tacticool or flashy

 

[andy t]

+1.
That's why SouthNarc and others teach - regardless of the type of reload - to always gain control the outbound mag from the pistol with your support hand. If doing an "emergency" load, toss it far behind. This is also something I practice as well.

A police SWAT officer, that I train with, mentioned an embarrassing incident about dropping a mag at your feet. He did just that and the mag landed on the linoleum floor. Murphy then got involved as he stepped on said mag. Down he went. Luckily, this was a training exercise and nothing was hurt except his ego. He now throws the mag to the rear and out of his intended path.

Just some to think about and not very tacticool or flashy

 

[Darkwood Arms]

This weekend Dave Harrington commented that the reload from slide lock was the most common in his experience

I agree that unless you're playing one of the practical shooting games, (where you can plan ahead for reloads and the like), people, under the stress of a lethal encounter will most likely shoot until the gun stops shooting and then realize it's time to reload.( Examine some actual shooting footage or try some up close and violent force on force training.)

In a real "Critical dynamic incident" to steal a phrase, you won't necessarly know how many attackers there are, where all of them may be, when is it safe to get out of there and just exactly what is happening as it happens. Lots of sensory overload, and the idea of a lull in the action seems remote at best.

I've shot the original Federal Air Marshal qualification course and passed. It has an IPSC type speed reload on one of the stages and I can't for the life of me find a practical or prudent use for this in a LEO qualification course. YMMV

 

[law dawg]

I agree that unless you're playing one of the practical shooting games, (where you can plan ahead for reloads and the like), people, under the stress of a lethal encounter will most likely shoot until the gun stops shooting and then realize it's time to reload.( Examine some actual shooting footage or try some up close and violent force on force training.)

In a real "Critical dynamic incident" to steal a phrase, you won't necessarly know how many attackers there are, where all of them may be, when is it safe to get out of there and just exactly what is happening as it happens. Lots of sensory overload, and the idea of a lull in the action seems remote at best.

I've shot the original Federal Air Marshal qualification course and passed. It has an IPSC type speed reload on one of the stages and I can't for the life of me find a practical or prudent use for this in a LEO qualification course. YMMV

If memory serves there's only two reloads on the TPC - an emergency and a tactical. Which one is impractical in your opinion?

 

[Gonzo]

If memory serves there's only two reloads on the TPC - an emergency and a tactical. Which one is impractical in your opinion?

The one that gets you killed.

 

[IPSC_DRL]

A little quick research.

Somewhat dated but still valid;

"Rapid Reloading

The average number of shots fired by individual officers in an armed confrontation was between two and three rounds. The two to three rounds per incident remained constant over the years covered by the report. It also substantiates an earlier study by the L.A.P.D. (1967) which found that 2.6 rounds per encounter were discharged.

The necessity for rapid reloading to prevent death or serious injury was not a factor in any of the cases examined.

In close range encounters, under 15 feet, it was never reported as necessary to continue the action.

In 6% of the total cases the officer reported reloading. These involved cases of pursuit, barricaded persons, and other incidents where the action was prolonged and the distance exceeded the 25 foot death zone."

I think it prudent to concentrate training where it is most likely to make a difference, shot placement.

 

[soloman02]

Somewhat dated but still valid;

"Rapid Reloading

The average number of shots fired by individual officers in an armed confrontation was between two and three rounds. The two to three rounds per incident remained constant over the years covered by the report. It also substantiates an earlier study by the L.A.P.D. (1967) which found that 2.6 rounds per encounter were discharged.

The necessity for rapid reloading to prevent death or serious injury was not a factor in any of the cases examined.

In close range encounters, under 15 feet, it was never reported as necessary to continue the action.

In 6% of the total cases the officer reported reloading. These involved cases of pursuit, barricaded persons, and other incidents where the action was prolonged and the distance exceeded the 25 foot death zone."

I think it prudent to concentrate training where it is most likely to make a difference, shot placement.

My NRA PPiTH instructors could not find a single instance of a civilian needing to reload in a self defense encounter.

That said, those statistics are all well and good, but I do not want to be the poor bugger who is the first one to have to reload during a firefight and have no training on how to reload under stress while the adrenaline is pumping.

Many police officers will never be in a firefight that requires them to reload, yet they still practice for it just in case it happens.

Also, in 1967, most police departments across the US were still using wheel guns. It is more time consuming to empty a 6 round cylinder on a double action revolver than it is to empty a magazine on a DA/SA or SAO semi-auto. You can even try that out with yourself and a buddy to time how long it take to empty a revolver vs a semi-auto.

 

[GSG]

I think an option that bears consideration is to just do an emergency reload and if time permits pick up the partially full magazine and put it in a pocket. If time doesn't permit, it's already gone and not a worry.

Speaking of IDPA, I got a procedural in two different stages of the Indiana IDPA championship (yesterday) for the same reason: commencing a reload of an empty pistol while in moving to cover. IDPA rules require that you move to cover with an empty gun before initiaing a reload. I simply cannot wrap my head around that concept and instinctively start my reload the moment I realize the pistol is empty (slide lock or revolver clicks) regardless of where I am. If moving to cover is necessary, I move, but I move while reloading.

+1 to both points. Absent good cover, while moving is probably the best time to reload an empty gun in a gunfight, unless you plan to stand still while they're shooting back.

Be sure to practice this beacuse it happens all the time............

I saw a dashboard camera recording of a cop who did just that in a gunfight. He and another cop were going to move forward to assist a wounded, unarmed fellow officer who was still taking fire, so he topped off his pistol with a fresh mag before pressing the attack. I've also seen footage of cops doing this while chasing fleeing suspects in a running gun battle, where they had to reload while driving their car.

Also, the well documented Peter Soulis incident:

Soulis' gun wasn't empty yet, but he knew better than to take the offensive without reloading. As he ejected the partially empty magazine and slapped in a fresh one...

I also personally spoke to a cop who had a nearly identical shooting to the Peter Soulis incident in the past couple of years who was forced to do the same thing.

Although most of the above that I've referenced are LEO shootings, there's one I'm listing at the bottom of my post that's civilian.

It's also doesn't take a huge stretch of the imagination to consider a scenario where an active shooter in a school, mall or other public place might get an LTC holder pinned down in a position where such a reload would be a viable option.

Gunfights can be quite fluid, prepare accordingly.

I think it prudent to concentrate training where it is most likely to make a difference, shot placement.

I agree that placement is very important, but there are many more well documented cases of goal-oriented indiiduals who were fatally wounded but were not out of the fight. In most cases people will drop after 2-3 rounds, but it's important to train for the moments when they don't.

My NRA PPiTH instructors could not find a single instance of a civilian needing to reload in a self defense encounter.

I can't post a link due to a firewall at work, but Google the term "Harry Beckwith's Guns in Alachua County, Florida" or "The Beckwith Incident," it's mentioned in the Ayoob Files. It's a gunstore owner who had to reload during a gunfight, more than once.

 

[GSG]

Also, after re-reading my post I'd like to clarify that I'm trying to be informative and helpful with the above post, not unkind, I know tone can be hard to convey on forums at times.

 

[Darkwood Arms]

If memory serves there's only two reloads on the TPC - an emergency and a tactical. Which one is impractical in your opinion?

Sorry, I was away from this thread for a while. I know some will disagree and I have read here some of that disagreement but the reload I thought was impractical was the reload which requires you to drop a partially depleated mag to the ground, with the slide in battery and then insert a fresh mag.

I agree that it's the fastest way to reload, but I believe it would be used limitedly in the vast majority of real world shootings.

 

[law dawg]

Sorry, I was away from this thread for a while. I know some will disagree and I have read here some of that disagreement but the reload I thought was impractical was the reload which requires you to drop a partially depleated mag to the ground, with the slide in battery and then insert a fresh mag.

I agree that it's the fastest way to reload, but I believe it would be used limitedly in the vast majority of real world shootings.

That reload is mimicking, say, being in a gunfight, having a lull in the action and reloading with a full mag, but while reloading the incident resumes and you have to do it quickly.

In simms training I've done a tactical reload many times - putting a new, full mag and replacing the depleted one. I've not had in happen in either of my real life shootings. It's just a good idea to top off when you can, if it's safe and you have the time. Usually we try to catch the mag and put it on our person. In the TPC, again, it's as if you've been caught in mid-reload or something similar. Just speed added to up the stress level.

 

[ScottS]

The "tacticool" terms can be useful at times, ensuring that we are on the same page.


You may need those extra cartridges. As an NRA instructor certified to teach Personal Protection in the Home, I suggest that you stow that partial magazine in your pocket, rather than discard it at your feet.

Much more applicable to, say, an 8-shot 1911 than an 18-shot XD9 or a 15-shot P228.

IMO, if you've already fired off some number of rounds, and then reload with 15 or 18 more rounds, and you find you needed the additional rounds in the mag you discarded, you are, as they say, at the end of a long line of bad decisions.

I find it hard to find an applicable scenario outside Baghdad or the Zombie Apocalypse.