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Pistol tac reload - which do you use and why
- Thread starter andy t
- Start date
Really? Assuming a 9mm P228, and that you shoot a little over half your first mag before "tac reloading," you're looking at looking at about 25 rounds available, and you can envision a realistic scenario against armed opponents where 25 rounds was not enough, but 30 saved the day? Could you share it with me? I can certainly envision a scenario where fumbling with more than one mag at the magwell can lead to disaster For me, if I have to reload in a fight, I want the old mag out of the magwell as fast as possible, and a new mag in the magwell as fast as possible, without the two-cars-trying-to-merge-into-traffic at the magwell.
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Let me first say, I can't do the two-car-merge tactical reload without fumbling. My mag comes out, gets stowed, then I grab and insert a new one. I'm also personally fond of the emergency reload; I don't expect to be counting rounds should I ever have to be defending myself.
As for a narrative where 5 rounds might be important, I'd say any scenario in which you're up against multiple armed opponents, you may want them. Four attackers with 80% hit percentage, 25 rounds is 5 per attacker. 30 is 6. I'm fighting for my life, I know which I like better.
Additionally, as I said before, I'm not counting rounds. If I have to shoot one opponent, know there's another, but also think I have time to reload, I think it unlikely I'm going to know more than very loose ballpark how much is left in the mag. I've seen others, and have myself, lost count in IDPA after just 4 rounds when something else becomes a concern mid-count. Take that into account and change the numbers to 20 vs. 30, and I think it's pretty clear it would be preferred to have those rounds.
You mentioned zombie apocalypse as a concern. I think 3 or 4 machete-wielding home invaders like happened in New Hampshire not long ago is akin to your own personal Zombie Apocalypse. With door locks or a dog for warning, you may survive. But not if you run out of ammo.
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I understand your point, but IMO, if you believe the linchpin of your survivability against 6 armed opponents in one running engagement is having enough ammo, then I think our views are too divergent for any common understanding. There becomes no practical end to your ammo needs. What about 8 armed intruders? 15? If that's the case, why aren't we carrying an entire IPSC ensemble of mags? We'll have to agree to disagree on this.
Re: the Cates murders, my scenario allows more than 6 rounds (more than one revolvers worth) per intruder. Should I feel "underarmed" because I could not allot 7 rounds per intruder?
Well, with that many opponents, I'm certainly hurting for ammo if I have no retreat and am forced to shoot it out. Aren't you? This isn't a scenario I plan for, as it's astronomically unlikely, which I think is what you mean. In that, I totally agree.
The practical end is dictated by what's convient for me to have on hand. For me, it's one extra magazine. But if one mag isn't empty, I might as well hold onto it if I have the time. That's all I'm saying.
The odds of this are astronomical. But if I have no retreat available, I probably get killed. But I'll get killed without any ammo.
It's not convenient and the odds of requiring it are astronomical. I think we agree on this.
You should feel underarmed with any handgun, but this is another discussion
![[grin]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/041.gif "Grin [grin]")
. There are totally documented shootings where 6 rounds of 9mm was insufficient to stop a threat. Why wouldn't you allot an extra round if you have the time?I'm totally onboard that much of this is not in the realm of real probability. My home defense gun is an 8 round 1911, with one spare. I'm not expecting to have to fight off the Taliban in my house. Additionally, I really don't see much point in taking a working semiautomatic firearm, and temporarily converting it to a single-shot gun in the middle of a fight. But you asked why you would need 5 more rounds. My point is "You never know. Why not keep them if you have the time?".
My opinion of this is that you should carry enough spare mags to either:
A: Hold off the attackers until police arrive.
OR
B: Hold off the attackers long enough to get to your car and drive like a bat out of hell to the nearest police station.
How many mags you carry to ensure you can do either is personal preference.
If you are at home:
Hold off the attackers long enough to get to your rifle, or more fully loaded mags.
A: Hold off the attackers until police arrive.
OR
B: Hold off the attackers long enough to get to your car and drive like a bat out of hell to the nearest police station.
How many mags you carry to ensure you can do either is personal preference.
If you are at home:
Hold off the attackers long enough to get to your rifle, or more fully loaded mags.
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+1.
Without bullets, you're no longer in a gunfight, you're a guy getting shot at. Even just one more bullet will give you a better chance in a gunfight than none.
I mentioned it earlier in this thread, but I'll say it again. There's a Massachusett's police Sgt. who speaks to MCJTC police academy classes from time to time who shares about the shootout he was involved in. He chased a stolen car, and it crashed a very short time after the chase began, well before backup arrived.
The driver jumped out shooting with a stolen .357 magnum revolver, charging at the Sgt. The Sgt. retreated around the rear of his patrol car while shooting, doing a fast tactical reload for the second or two that he was out of sight when the cruiser was between him and the felon, as he was running low. The felon then jumped into the front seat of the cruiser trying to remove the Sgt.'s shotgun from it's mounts, so the Sgt. moved to the passenger side window and they exchanged gunfire again, from 3-4 feet away. The felon ran out of ammo, so he turned to flee and dropped to the ground once he was out of the cruiser.
It wasn't until the autposy and post-shooting investigation was done that the Sgt. learned that he had fatally wounded the felon with 16 shots that penetrated his heart, lungs, liver and other vital organs, and the felon didn't even blink. There was no Hollywood clutch-the-chest-and-fall-to-the-ground routine, there was no visual confirmation that his rounds had hit his target (blood spurting, etc.). He kept running towards the Sgt. while shooting at him, even though his heart couldn't pump blood and his lungs couldn't breathe; he was dead, but he didn't know that.
To make things even more interesting, there was no drugs or alcohol in the felon at the time of the shooting. He was a fat guy, but all the JHP's penetrated him more than adequately. He was what is referred to as "a goal oriented individual."
What stopped this felonious goal oriented individual was a single stray round to his kneecap. During their second engagement, one of the Sgt.'s rounds hit his knee, and when the felon turned to flee from the cruiser, he put all his weight on that leg to get out of the car. His leg broke, he dropped to the ground and bled out, having finally been taken out of the fight.
The Sgt. was carrying a .40 caliber Glock 22 with 15 rounds in the gun and two spare 15 round magazines at the start of the gunfight. At the end, he was down to one last partially full magazine in the gun.
What if the felon hadn't been alone in the stolen car? How many more rounds would it take to put down the remaining attackers? What if that round hadn't accidentally hit the attacker's knee and the fight was still on? The Sgt. would've been left with the remaining ammo in his gun (assuming there wasn't a magazine malfunction, in which case he'd have one round left), and the nearly empty spare magazine on the black pavement somewhere in the dark out of his sight, where it would be absolutely useless to him.
IDPA, IPSC, force on force training and range time are all great things, but they can only partially prepare you for a gunfight, especially a nightmarish one like this Sgt. went through, or like the Peter Soulis incident I referenced earlier in this thread.
My point is that if you carry a gun, you expect that at some point you might need to use it. If you do, you will need however many rounds it takes to get you out of that gunfight. But the catch is that you have to be able to shoot until all of your attackers completely stop their aggressive action, and you won't know how many rounds it took to stop them until eveything is over.
Oh, by the way, this felon that the Sgt. shot got the stolen car he was driving by breaking into someone's house a few hours previous. The Sgt.'s gunfight started at around 3 a.m., which means that the break-in to the house happened at about midnight.
What if that was your house that got broken into at midnight, and you woke up to that goal oriented felon with a .357 who needed more than fatal wounds to stop him? Would you have enough ammo to stop him in time to save your life?
I had an in-depth off the record conversation with that Sgt. about his shooting, and guess what? Now I can never have too much ammo.
Have you ever heard the saying "Unless you're drowning or on fire there's no such thing as too much ammunition."?
![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
I see your point, but I don't think it's over the top to suggest that people take full advantage of the ammo that they do carry.
J
Jose
What is this "hold them off" tactic?
How about making hits and ENDING the threat?
What kind of mindset is that?
+1.
Without bullets, you're no longer in a gunfight, you're a guy getting shot at. Even just one more bullet will give you a better chance in a gunfight than none.
...
Have you ever heard the saying "Unless you're drowning or on fire there's no such thing as too much ammunition."?
I see your point, but I don't think it's over the top to suggest that people take full advantage of the ammo that they do carry.
Agreed. The first rule of gunfights is "Have a gun." This should really be "Have a working gun, with ammo."
If you have the time to retain the magazine, why not do so? If you don't have the time to retain the magazine, then don't. But then maybe you shouldn't be taking your mag out right then anyways.
+1
As a LEO intructor I will say this, NONE of the RELOAD* techniques I teach involve dropping a mag with live rounds to the ground. I have "stolen" the philosophy of intructors before me that if you are in a gun fight if you are not shooting you should be reloading if you're not reloading you should be rmoving.
Further, personally I teach your last option should be emergency reload (gun's empty, dropping an empty mag from slide lock). But obviously even in that they shouldn't be dropping "live" mags to the ground. They should know how to do all methods (emergency, rentention, tactical) but when it comes to retention -vs- tactical, they need to decide what method they prefer (and practice it).
Like "TheRoland" said above, If you don't have the time to retain the magazine, that maynot be the best time to reload.
*Yes there are clearance/jam procedures in which we do "throw away" good mags, and yes there are various practice "drills"/senerios that may include it to. But sticking to "proper" reload technique none include dumping a "live" mag.
In your opinion, that is. Wonderful thing about opinions: we all have them, and none of them is "fact."
A "speed reload" (slide forward, round in the chamber) is the fastest way to reload the gun. Period. That's a fact, not an opinion. It also keeps the magwell clear, requires no elaborate hand ballet, nor fumbling for where to stuff the "used" mag in street clothes (not my wide-bellows-pocket IDPA vest). I'll accept these advantages over some theoretical advantage rounds 26-30 give me, and struggle to make do somehow with ~25 available rounds.
And if I don't think I have time to stow the magazine, or am wearing jeans with tight pockets, or anything like that, I'm dumping the half-empty magazine, too. But it's not my first choice to do so. My first choice is not to take apart a working gun in the middle of a fight. My second choice is to reload when I have plenty of time to stow a magazine as I please. My third choice is to dump the magazine and hope I don't live to regret not having those 5 rounds.
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"My first choice is not to take apart a working gun in the middle of a fight."
This is a good point to think about. Depending on what type of gun you are using, there are a good number of handguns on the market today with magazine disconnects. If the mag isn't in and fully seated, the gun is deactivated until the problem is resolved. Best to see if your gun has this "feature" and plan accordingly.
This is a good point to think about. Depending on what type of gun you are using, there are a good number of handguns on the market today with magazine disconnects. If the mag isn't in and fully seated, the gun is deactivated until the problem is resolved. Best to see if your gun has this "feature" and plan accordingly.
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Don't get me started on these
![[crying]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/006.gif "Crying [crying]")
. I swore I would never own a gun with one of these, but my P22 snuck it in on me.In my opinion, doing anything other than a reload from slidelock on a gun with a magazine disconnect, is irresponsible in the extreme.
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It sounds to me like we're not that far apart in philosophy. I agree.
I'll disagree with you, that is not a matter of oppinion. Again I stated a "proper" reload technique does not include dumping live mags. Thats not to say other methods may not work or even be faster, or in real life be required, but that doesn't make them "proper" techniques, espeicially for training.
Understand i do not teach officers how to play shooting games, I do not teach officers how to "survive" gun fights, I teach officers the techniques for winning gun fights. Now here is my opinion, what I teach is meant for "street officers" not CCW, etc, BUT I would think that since the average regular joe CCW'ing probably doesn't have backup racing thier way, a full duty belt of "goodies", maybe a back up gun and probably a shotgun/patrol rifle in thier car, so what I teach would be "extra" applicable to someone who CCW's. but that is my opinion.
So where do I think "you" have gone wrong???the beleif that dumping a live mag is only going to cost you 5 rnds...
So OK lets set this up, you are carrying one of the fantastic wonder nines with 1 spare mag. (at least 30 rnd total). You take your first 7-10 shots and decide to do "your" speed reload (no retention just dump that partial mag)...on your next shot you get a feedway jam...now I don' know how you clear a feedway jam, but I bet it includes dumping that mag...hopefully you can run fast otherwise you're on the ground trying to find either mag...
Cuz why? Have you no mouth to bite that mag? Seriously if your cloths and mag pounch don't "work", still not seeing the benefit to dumping good rounds on the ground when you don't have to...
Proper? Always cheat, always win. Any technique that contributes to that is proper. It may not be preferred, and I maintain it is non-ideal, but I think you'd be foolish not to practice it. I've lost "gunfights" (really, just head-to-head training drills) by doing things the proper way. Always cheat, always win.
This is a good point, and something I hadn't really thought through.
I agree with that, but how does the described "speed reload" (dumping a live mag) cheat or give you any tactical advantage, so as that it is something you should plan on? If I don't have the split second time difference between a tac reload and the mentioned "speed reload" I should still be shooting, not reloading.
Well, for me, and allot of people, the time difference is probably on the order of .5 to 1 second. If your lull is of unknown length, but you feel the need to reload anyways, maybe it's worth trading rounds for that time. At least, it's worth practicing to determine what the time difference is, and some consideration as to how valuable those rounds are to you. I think the key difference between my and ScottS's position has been how much time we're willing to trade for those rounds.
Dude, do you not understand the word "proper" represents an opinion, not a fact? Is English your second language? (Serious question, not an insult.) What's "proper" for your situation, or what you think is "proper" some other trainer or shooter may not think is "proper."
Boy, I'll bet your the only guy training "officers," so everyone must use your techniques, right? Yes, you teach techniques. Others have other techniques. My whole point, and one that seems to escape you.
And what happens if your feedway jam occurs during your last reload? Are you not in exactly the same situation? Everyone gets to the last mag sooner or later.
Seriously, everything I need to know about your training is right there. I'm sure you do a fine job, but thanks, anyway.
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+1. I can't think of the last time I saw someone fumble a speed reload. I can't count the number of times I've seen good shooter blow a tactical reload. And watch sometime how a fumbled tactical reload affects their follow-on shooting. Add real-live stress into the situation, and the time difference is between a speed reload and a fumbled tactical reload. That's the time difference I worry about.
Competing in IDPA, I got the bright idea on a required tac-reload to hold the partly used mag in my left hand and finish the stage by shooting the pistol with my right hand only. I am pretty good with either hand and finished the stage well. The thought was to get the gun back into service quickly and stow the used mag when and if I had time.
However, the rule book stated that the mag must be stowed before moving out from cover. So, I got a procedural penalty......
However, the rule book stated that the mag must be stowed before moving out from cover. So, I got a procedural penalty......
No evidently I do not think "proper" is an opinion. there is a right way and wrong way to do everything, that doesn't mean that some of those wrong ways won't work, but that doesn't make them right. I can hit the target almost just as good by "slapping" the trigger, doesn't mean I will practice slapping the trigger or teach other people to slap the trigger, even though in a stress ful situation they might end up slapping the trigger...
Of course there are other instructors with other techniques, I have and continue to train under other instructors, I have yet to be at a single course in whihc the instructor advocates dumping live mags as a standard reload procedure.
No I am not in exactly the same situation, by tac reloading or retention reloading, I have the ability to stay in the fight longer. Meaning yes if I drop my "last mag" I am out just like you, BUT my last mag was only a partial not a full mag.
Evidently you are correct, if you are not willing to do everyhting possilbe to win the gun fight, you probabably don't belong in my training. Also understand this if you got the wrong idea, I don't teach holding a mag in your teeth as part of any reload technique, but as a part of incapacitation drills I do teach using whatever you got to get the job done. So in the senario presented (jeans to tight, non operable mag pouch) if I wanted a two hand grip on that gun, I'd rather be holding a spare mag in my teeth than have no spare mag...
Also understand don't take any of this "personal" this is just a good internet debate. If you want to dump live rounds to the ground in a gunfight that is your call, if that works for you great (and honestly we both know most gunfights are over before anyone has to reload).
For most all things in life, there is more than one "right" way to do it. Those different ways have different advantages and disadvantages, and it is often more useful to discuss those differences in that way, rather than saying "my way is right and your way is wrong."
So I went to the range for several hours tonight and did 50 consecutive reloads with retention, in street clothes. When the timer-stress was on, I would revert to the lowest level of my training, and couldn't stop instinctively discarding the half-empty magazine. When I didn't do this, the time difference wasn't .5 to 1 second, it was 1-3 seconds.
I think it's it's safe to say that in the unlikely event of a real fight, I'm not going to be retaining it unless I have enough time to stop, scan, consider my next move, then reload. Because that's how I've practiced. I think this changes my thinking somewhat. I think that for me, ScottS's evaluation of time vs. available ammo was right all along, and my previous evaluation was wrong.
But these are just more opinions. Know all three. Practice all three.
I think it's it's safe to say that in the unlikely event of a real fight, I'm not going to be retaining it unless I have enough time to stop, scan, consider my next move, then reload. Because that's how I've practiced. I think this changes my thinking somewhat. I think that for me, ScottS's evaluation of time vs. available ammo was right all along, and my previous evaluation was wrong.
But these are just more opinions. Know all three. Practice all three.
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![[popcorn]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/043.gif "Popcorn [popcorn]")
Or do both at the same time.
![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
Bingo.
Practice more, fumble less.
Go to the range with your carry gear, whatever setup you'll be carrying with, and practice, practice more than just once. If you prepare and practice to stow live mags after a tactical reload, there won't be fumbling, or wondering where, or a sudden technique failure. You can stow live mags in empty mag pouches, pockets, Mexican carried in the pants, or wherever else you prepare yourself to.
If every time you shoot, you retain after a tactical reload, you will be able to do it quickly, smoothly, and successfully.
Yes, if your feedway jam occurs during your last reload, you're in the exact situation. But if you're dumping live mags on the ground, you're going to get down to that "last mag" a lot faster.
Many opinions, many different "right ways" of doing it. There is no one "right" or "proper" way.
Maybe a look at my carry gear will help understand why I think a speed reload gains me everything and loses essentially nothing--provided you have adequate rounds in your replacement mag.
My normal carry gun these days is a Springfield Ultra Compact. Essentially an Officer's size 1911. I carry with a Wilson 7-round mag, which gives me 8 ready rounds in the gun. I also carry one additional mag, but like many people who carry a small-frame gun, my reload mag is slightly higher capacity. I figure once I'm into the reload, concealment is not really a player.
Here's my carry gun. Sorry for the picture quality. Note the mag, while giving me an additional round over "standard," doesn't really extend below the grip frame, and wouldn't extend at all if I had an extended magwell.
When it comes time to reload, say during the famous "lull in the fighting," I'm going to drop that mag, and whatever rounds are still in it, and reload with my spare mag. I feel I'm not really losing anything significant in terms of total rounds by dropping that partial mag. I firmly believe if I can't get it done with the rounds expended already and the reload, then I'm at the end of a long line of bad decisions.
Here's my carry gun with my reload mag. Again, sorry for the picture quality.
The only challenge once I've reloaded is one-handed reholstering without looking down.
Reasonable people can disagree, and there's always more than one "right" way.
Maybe a look at my carry gear will help understand why I think a speed reload gains me everything and loses essentially nothing--provided you have adequate rounds in your replacement mag.
My normal carry gun these days is a Springfield Ultra Compact. Essentially an Officer's size 1911. I carry with a Wilson 7-round mag, which gives me 8 ready rounds in the gun. I also carry one additional mag, but like many people who carry a small-frame gun, my reload mag is slightly higher capacity. I figure once I'm into the reload, concealment is not really a player.
Here's my carry gun. Sorry for the picture quality. Note the mag, while giving me an additional round over "standard," doesn't really extend below the grip frame, and wouldn't extend at all if I had an extended magwell.
When it comes time to reload, say during the famous "lull in the fighting," I'm going to drop that mag, and whatever rounds are still in it, and reload with my spare mag. I feel I'm not really losing anything significant in terms of total rounds by dropping that partial mag. I firmly believe if I can't get it done with the rounds expended already and the reload, then I'm at the end of a long line of bad decisions.
Here's my carry gun with my reload mag. Again, sorry for the picture quality.
The only challenge once I've reloaded is one-handed reholstering without looking down.
Reasonable people can disagree, and there's always more than one "right" way.
