please teach me how to suck less with the AR15

[DrNVP]

I got my first AR about a week ago. It's a Bushmaster xm-15, m4 type profile. I zeroed it (using the standard 25m zero procedure) and put 150 rounds just to break it in once I got it. Today, I put about 100 rounds of American Eagle .223 55gr ammo through and tried to shoot groups. I shot at 25yd from a bench rest and my groups sucked. I was only able to get to about a 2 inch group using the small aperture.

This is the first gun I've ever owned that had an aperture sight. Everything else I'm used to shooting had a notch and post type sight. I'm not going to lie, I had a lot of trouble getting used to it. When I look through it, I can barely see the front sight post. I know that the top of the front sight post should be the point of impact at this range, so I put it right in the middle of the bullseye. It basically just blends in with the black bullseye and the entire sight picture turns into a blurry mess.

What else can I do to improve on this? I know that American Eagle 223 isn't exactly match ammo, but I am sure it can do better than a 2 inch group @ 25 yards.

 

[Jamie]

Answer

 

[atmay]

One thing you could try is using a 6 o'clock hold. The top of the post should be in the middle of the aperture, and resting on the bottom edge of the bullseye. This will help keep your POA consistent, which might be part of your problem.

Also, get targets with smaller bullseyes that aren't black.

 

[DrNVP]

Answer

I will definitely get a scope, but only after I become proficient with irons.

 

[Sprocket]

First - [STRIKE]which of the 2 apertures are you using? There is a small and larger one - they each have their preferred zero distance.[/STRIKE] You're using the wrong aperture, the small is 38/300 meters and the large is 25/200 or something there abouts.

second - have you thought of using a different colored target to get a contrast between the sights and target? Those orange dot stickers are pretty effective - I use paper plates with a sharpie most days...

Sight alignment should be the top of the post in the center of the aperture, not skewed to one side or high or low, just centered - a search both in and around here and the rest of the web should reveal some sight pic images. point of focus is the front sight, the rest should be blurry.

third - the ammo should not be a factor at that range but you know this. I sometimes shoot minute of skoal can (2.5") at 25 meters (38 yards btw) due to caffeine and other factors...can't blame the rifle all the time. Work on your steady hold factors, sight alignment, picture and trigger control to get consistent with all of those things.

Someone will be along to explain the Appleseed Project shortly - and I highly recommend it even to experienced shooters - it's a chance to learn something from a different perspective/technique/method. If you go with an open mind you will learn something every time.

 

[DrNVP]

First - [STRIKE]which of the 2 apertures are you using? There is a small and larger one - they each have their preferred zero distance.[/STRIKE] You're using the wrong aperture, the small is 38/300 meters and the large is 25/200 or something there abouts.

second - have you thought of using a different colored target to get a contrast between the sights and target? Those orange dot stickers are pretty effective - I use paper plates with a sharpie most days...

I thought the two apertures were only for visibility differences? If i am trying to shoot groups @ 25 yards, shouldn't the small aperture still give me better results than the large one?

regarding the targets, I was shooting against an NRA 50ft rapid fire pistol target. Its the only thing I had at the moment. I think a smaller, colored target would help me see better

 

[Moderator]

Answer

I disagree. Using a scope does not make you a better shooter.

 

[OnTheRoad]

From a "keep it simple" standpoint all I'd suggest for starters is practice, practice, practice. My AR skill were teh suck for quite awhile. I would go to the range with a cardboard box, tape a piece of white paper on the side and draw a "+" in the middle of the paper with a sharpie. I shot first for consistency (breathing and trigger control) and when the shots were grouping well moved on to accuracy. Tried not to overdo it, maybe 100 or so rounds; if I was having a bad day I'd pack up and go before I got frustrated. Take the time to get used to the platform and the rest should flow from there.

There are also a few different targets out there to download - this one may be easier to see through your sights.

View attachment Click-n-Shoot__22LR24.pdf

 

[Moderator]

My 2 pennies, and I am probably wrong. If your shooting bad off a bench at 25 yards, then you need to work on your trigger discipline or you're flinching.


ETA; Don't be afraid to put white paint or white-out on the front sight for your bullseye problem.

 

[jasons]

Attend a CMP Clinic

 

[RichM]

You should ALWAYS use the smaller aperture. The large aperture is only used for quick acquisition of large targets to be shot at close range, and for limited visibility shooting (darkness using tracers, or when wearing a chemical protective mask). For all shooting when accuracy is important, use the small aperture.

Make sure that the front sight post is centered vertically and horizontally in the fuzzy ring of the rear peep sight, kinda like this:

... you'll note that this sight isn't centered horizontally...

Also be aware that a consistent cheek-to-stock weld is very important... You always want to be the same distance from the charging handle (and with the AR platform, you can actually put your nose right on the charging handle without consequence during recoil). BUT, when your eye is closer to the charging handle, the rear-sight-circle is larger, and it may be harder to "find" the center to properly place the front sight. By backing you head away by only a couple of inches, you may be able to find the center of the smaller circle a little better.

After that, it's all technique and fundamentals: hold, sight alignment/sight picture, breathing control, trigger squeeze, and follow through.

 

[DrNVP]

You should ALWAYS use the smaller aperture. The large aperture is only used for quick acquisition of large targets to be shot at close range, and for limited visibility shooting (darkness using tracers, or when wearing a chemical protective mask). For all shooting when accuracy is important, use the small aperture.

Make sure that the front sight post is centered vertically and horizontally in the fuzzy ring of the rear peep sight, kinda like this:

... you'll note that this sight isn't centered horizontally...

Also be aware that a consistent cheek-to-stock weld is very important... You always want to be the same distance from the charging handle (and with the AR platform, you can actually put your nose right on the charging handle without consequence during recoil). BUT, when your eye is closer to the charging handle, the rear-sight-circle is larger, and it may be harder to "find" the center to properly place the front sight. By backing you head away by only a couple of inches, you may be able to find the center of the smaller circle a little better.

After that, it's all technique and fundamentals: hold, sight alignment/sight picture, breathing control, trigger squeeze, and follow through.

good idea. I wasn't really thinking of consistent cheek to stock weld. I was constantly moving my head to try to get a better sight picture because it was so damn blurry. There was also a ton of glare too when using the small aperture, not sure why.

 

[mac1911]

it took me some time to get used to peep sights. most of my AR shooting consist of "hit" on target. I generally plink @ 100 yards with the 8" paper plates point of aim is the 6 oclock of the paper plate. It took me several CMP shoots to get used to and find the better spot on the stocks comb of my M1 Garand with the peep sights. Give your self time to get used to it. Remember also if you where useing the 25m target the circle is about 1.75" 3 or 5 shots with in that circle and your gun is good to go.
Can AR's acheive better accuracy, im sure they can. for me I think of it this way a mil spec AR plain jane plateform is designed to hit a mansized target from 0-XXX yards holding a center mass aim, right ? so any tight groups you get can only get tighter with pratice of the fundementals when your fundementals are solid you can only achieve the limits of your AR.

Do you have a 22? like a stevens bolt action or something. Have you taken it out in recent times. What type of groups are you getting @ 25 yards with other guns ? I shoot a lot of TRAP and sporting clays= shotgun trigger. It takes me a bit when I transition to rifle or pistol to not pull or yank on the trigger as I tend to do in trap shooting

aside from that maybe take a course or 2 or three.......CMP shoots/Clinics have really helped me lots of guys there can get you where you need to be.
I would like to do a appleseed someday, and if I can ever find the time I would love to do a good long course, say at sig or gunsite or such

 

[TheWookie]

Join the Marine Corps, they will teach you how to shoot better than 99.96% of the population, for free.......

 

[bpm990d]

Maybe he he just wants some advice/help from the .04%.

Seriously, whats up with the useless posts? Not even a reference to MCRP 3-01A. Maybe the OP is 67 years old and can't pass that stupid duck walk test in your underwear that they make you do at MEPS.

B

 

[Moderator]

Maybe the OP is 67 years old and can't pass that stupid duck walk test in your underwear that they make you do at MEPS.

B

That was the worst part of the whole damn physical. At that moment it was hard for me to take the military serious. LOL

 

[vellnueve]

Just keep practicing and make sure you're not jerking the trigger or flinching.

 

[rattletrap1970]

Breathing, trigger control and proper sight acquisition.
Battle sights are tough to use effectively. Not saying they aren't effective, they work quite well in service rifle matches at 200 yards.
It really is all about practice.
If you look online there is a PDF file floating around from the military on rifle marksmanship. That is helpful.

I don't think bench shooting with an AR teaches much about marksmanship though. Get yourself a proper sling and practice shooting from your 4 basic positions at a normal distance of 100 yards on a regulation 100 yard target. Also know that the ammo you are using is not "match" ammo either. If you are shooting a short barreled AR (short sight radius too) with mediocre ammo at that you are not going to pile the shots through the same hole. If you bought yourself a CQB rifle don't necessarily expect it to be used for ranges much past 25m anyway.

You have an AR (basically the firearm equivalent of Legos) if you want to put them through the same hole at 100 yards then build a proper setup for shooting at distance.

 

[TheWookie]

whats up with the useless posts?

Useless? Don't get your underwear in a bunch.

Do you think the people before me helped him? Or you?

C'mon - you can't teach rifle marksmanship to somebody online who doesn't even know what stockwell is, or what the fundamentals are. He can read marksmanship manuals until the sun comes up but telling him to read those boring manuals is useless. It's like telling the kid who wants to be a sniper to go read John Plasters book, really, thanks for the tip.

 

[Twigg]

Answer

A 'scope will help one see better, it will not necessarily help you shoot better.

Someone will be along to explain the Appleseed Project shortly - and I highly recommend it even to experienced shooters - it's a chance to learn something from a different perspective/technique/method. If you go with an open mind you will learn something every time.

What he said. The Appleseed program has its' haters here because the course is taught mostly using .22lr at 25 meters. There are full distance centerfire events at full distance out to 400 yards and they sell out fast.

Click on the link in my sig line for more info. I need to return to instructing again.

From a "keep it simple" standpoint all I'd suggest for starters is practice, practice, practice.

Ever hear the old joke about "How do I get to Carnegie Hall ? Pratice man, pratice."

If someone were to ask me what the most important aspects of shooting accuratly were I'd say learn what a natural point of aim (too much info for part of one post, click link in sig line) is and how to use it,

and the six steps of firing a shot.

1. Sight alignment: Alignment of the front and rear sights.
2. Sight picture: Bringing the aligned sights onto the target.
3. Respiratory pause: A person's natural breathing raises and lowers the rifle. When one achieves a perfect sight
picture while exhaling, one must hold her/his breath (briefly !) to remain on target.
4a. Focus the eyes on the front sight
4b. Focus the mind on keeping the front sight on the target
5. Squeeeeeeeeeeeze the trigger: Steadily squeeze the trigger. Do not jerk the trigger, but squeeze.
6. Follow through: There are two important facets to following through. First, one must take a mental snapshot of where the sights were when the shot was fired so that the shooter can have instant feedback and can call the shot to know where it impacted the target. Second, one must hold the trigger back for a moment and then release it slowly to prepare for the next shot.

Lastly, I'd suggest snapping into various positions and dry firing. Lots of dry firing.

 

[rattletrap1970]

Are you referring to the advice I gave him?
Reading a book is a good place to start. It's winter, there is some time to do a little reading. It won't hurt.

Useless? Don't get your underwear in a bunch.

Do you think the people before me helped him? Or you?

C'mon - you can't teach rifle marksmanship to somebody online who doesn't even know what stockwell is, or what the fundamentals are. He can read marksmanship manuals until the sun comes up but telling him to read those boring manuals is useless. It's like telling the kid who wants to be a sniper to go read John Plasters book, really, thanks for the tip.

 

[bpm990d]

No you can't read stuff off the tubes and learn to shoot, just the same way you can not read a book and learn to shoot. However both are great resources for people that might not have access to a coach or mentor at their home range. I thought there was a lot of good information in these posts and I especially liked RichM's picture as well as the fact that he correctly identified a very slight misalignment. Some don't realize what aligned really means, and when you show them a picture like that it really helps them understand.

Not everyone is able to serve in the military and the reality is that the military does not want everyone.

B

 

[dwarven1]

What else can I do to improve on this? I know that American Eagle 223 isn't exactly match ammo, but I am sure it can do better than a 2 inch group @ 25 yards.

Yes, you can. And we'd be happy to teach you, too: http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=15209.0

See you in February?

 

[SheepDog_B]

Keep up the practice Seven.
Develop how you're comfortable holding the gun and then keep it consistent. Where the stock sits in your shoulder and where you're cheek rests should fall to the same spot every time. Even when you early bench shooting, pick up the rifle, get that stock IN your shoulder where its comfy, cheek on the stock while looking at the target with both eyes and when your ready close one eye and MOVE yourself and the rifle to get on target.
Once your consistant there, your breathing and trigger squeeze will develop over time.
Red target stickies are super cheap and the solution to the black centers. I often copy targets at work to save cash and put red stickies on them for mid range rifle and almost all pistol shooting.

 

[vellnueve]

C'mon - you can't teach rifle marksmanship to somebody online who doesn't even know what stockwell is,

I'm not even sure what that is either.

 

[PatMcD]

At close range (up to 50yds or so), I've never had luck with a round bullseye. A big "+" works better for me. Make the lines about an inch or two.

Rear aperature; look through it and forget about it. Your eye will naturally center it. Focus everything on the front post; not the target.

 

[jdesro]

Rear aperature; look through it and forget about it. Your eye will naturally center it. Focus everything on the front post; not the target.

This is the best advice right here for using aperature sights. You should not even notice the ring of the aperature - like he said, your eye will naturally center the front post. With the AR, you can put your face right up to the charging handle - get your eye as close as possible to that rear aperature so that you can look through it, not use it as as an aiming aid as you would a blade rear sight. The top of the front post should be crisp and sharp in your vision.
And I think as others have said you need a more defined aiming point for a target. your aiming point you are using is a little too large and broad to get a consistent aiming reference.

And just keep practicing, using the proper technique, and you will get there.

 

[MichaelJR]

Best title of a thread, ever.

 

[bpm990d]

Focus everything on the front post; not the target.

Like this.

B

 

[beaker]

If you can't see your front sight post (it is blurry) you may need glasses. I have a similar problem. I have great distance vision (20/12 and 20/15), but because of that, as I get older my near vision is getting worse. I have a hard time focusing on the front sight post, and it gets worse during a shooting session. I don't need glasses, but my eye Doc told me to get a pair of cheater glasses (a 1.5 or 1.7) for reading, and they make a huge difference. I plan on trying the cheater specs while shooting with irons and i think it will help a great deal. With a red dot or a scope I have no problems at all.