Practical Implications of H4885 for Purchasing and Possessing

Bud R said:
Are ya sure?
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Is there a tiered system for “assault style firearms”? No.

Any ASF owned and possessed on 8/1 is grandfathered in. It doesn’t matter whether it was a Polytech in 1993, a Bushmaster XM-15 in 2014, or a Sig MCX in 2023 as they are all ASFs and if in your possession in Ma on 8/1/2024 it is legal to own.
 
milktree said:
I wonder if the state is going to require a manufacturer name as well as a serial number as part of their "serial number" requirement.

e.g.: I have this stack of lowers that I serialized a month ago before the law took effect, but there's no "Milktree's Gun Works" or any other builder/manufacturer/assembler identification on them.

The way I read the law, the *ONLY* requirement is a serial number, nothing else.
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Yeah - your going to need to correct that from my reading of Federal regs.
Once you decide to mark it you need to comply with all of the marking requirements.
I'm probably wrong but there's nothing in the regs that make me think that a PMF can be serialized with only a.serial number since serials are only unique within a manufacturer.
 
pastera said:
Yeah - your going to need to correct that from my reading of Federal regs.
Once you decide to mark it you need to comply with all of the marking requirements.
I'm probably wrong but there's nothing in the regs that make me think that a PMF can be serialized with only a.serial number since serials are only unique within a manufacturer.
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I don't want to conflate federal and Mass. regulations here.

My understanding is that the feds only care about a serial number on a PMF if/when you [do something] Sell to someone? Sell to a dealer? Sell to a dealer out of state? If that's the case, until you do one of those things, the feds don't care at all what you put on your gun. i.e.: if you just keep your PMF, a serial number alone is fine, as is a manufacturer name alone, etc. But if you do one of the things they care about, it must meet fed. regulations.

So, what does Massachusetts care about?

The definition of "serialization" in §121 only talks about the number, nothing else. The requirements (depth, size, etc.) match the federal requirements, but there's nothing about needing a manufacturer on it.

"valid serial number" (also defined in §121) which might match the federal regs, does not appear anywhere in MGL other than the definition.

§121C(a) says all guns must have a serial number "in accordance with the requirements of this section". But nowhere that I can find does any section require more than just the serial number.


My reading of it:

- any gun that had a serial number before the laws went into effect can use that serial number, even if the serial number is the only marking on the gun.
Federal requirements for manufacturer/importer/etc. don't apply until you do something with the gun that triggers the federal requirements.

- any gun built after that must get a serial number from the state. There's nothing in the law that says the gun must have more than the serial number provided by the state.
 
milktree said:
I don't want to conflate federal and Mass. regulations here.

My understanding is that the feds only care about a serial number on a PMF if/when you [do something] Sell to someone? Sell to a dealer? Sell to a dealer out of state? If that's the case, until you do one of those things, the feds don't care at all what you put on your gun. i.e.: if you just keep your PMF, a serial number alone is fine, as is a manufacturer name alone, etc. But if you do one of the things they care about, it must meet fed. regulations.

So, what does Massachusetts care about?

The definition of "serialization" in §121 only talks about the number, nothing else. The requirements (depth, size, etc.) match the federal requirements, but there's nothing about needing a manufacturer on it.

"valid serial number" (also defined in §121) which might match the federal regs, does not appear anywhere in MGL other than the definition.

§121C(a) says all guns must have a serial number "in accordance with the requirements of this section". But nowhere that I can find does any section require more than just the serial number.


My reading of it:

- any gun that had a serial number before the laws went into effect can use that serial number, even if the serial number is the only marking on the gun.
Federal requirements for manufacturer/importer/etc. don't apply until you do something with the gun that triggers the federal requirements.

- any gun built after that must get a serial number from the state. There's nothing in the law that says the gun must have more than the serial number provided by the state.
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A PMF would likely squeak past all of the requirements, but ATF being what they are they would fight to impose the full marking requirements

Firearms - Guides - Importation & Verification of Firearms, Ammunition - Firearms Verification Overview | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

Previous Page Table of Contents Download the Guidebook Next Page Firearms Verification Firearms Verification Overview Marking Requirements Serial Number Must be conspicuously engraved, cast or stamped (impressed) on the firearm frame or receiver The serial number cannot duplicate the serial...
www.atf.gov www.atf.gov

Do you have to do it? Maybe - we don't 100% know until a court case tells us.
378 “Valid serial number”, an identifying number that has been: (i) placed on a firearm by a federally licensee authorized to serialize firearms or pursuant to the laws of any state or 26 U.S.C. 5842 and the regulations promulgated thereunder; or (ii) a serial number issued by the director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives in the United States Department of Justice or the department of criminal justice information services.
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26 U.S.C. 5842 said:
(a)Identification of firearms other than destructive devices
Each manufacturer and importer and anyone making a firearm shall identify each firearm, other than a destructive device, manufactured, imported, or made by a serial number which may not be readily removed, obliterated, or altered, the name of the manufacturer, importer, or maker, and such other identification as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe.
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The regulations state that PMFs are exempt from compliance until they enter the normal stream of commerce - but Mass is calling out 26 U.S.C. 5842 as a method of compliance with Mass law.
 
pastera said:
A PMF would likely squeak past all of the requirements, but ATF being what they are they would fight to impose the full marking requirements

Firearms - Guides - Importation & Verification of Firearms, Ammunition - Firearms Verification Overview | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

Previous Page Table of Contents Download the Guidebook Next Page Firearms Verification Firearms Verification Overview Marking Requirements Serial Number Must be conspicuously engraved, cast or stamped (impressed) on the firearm frame or receiver The serial number cannot duplicate the serial...
www.atf.gov www.atf.gov

Do you have to do it? Maybe - we don't 100% know until a court case tells us.



The regulations state that PMFs are exempt from compliance until they enter the normal stream of commerce - but Mass is calling out 26 U.S.C. 5842 as a method of compliance with Mass law.
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If one decides to serialize it’s wise to just follow the federal guidelines since it would be silly to go back to the engraver to add on other identifying information. It’s really quite small when using .003 depth and 1/16” font. Most people won’t be able to read it without glasses.
 
pastera said:
A PMF would likely squeak past all of the requirements, but ATF being what they are they would fight to impose the full marking requirements

Firearms - Guides - Importation & Verification of Firearms, Ammunition - Firearms Verification Overview | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

Previous Page Table of Contents Download the Guidebook Next Page Firearms Verification Firearms Verification Overview Marking Requirements Serial Number Must be conspicuously engraved, cast or stamped (impressed) on the firearm frame or receiver The serial number cannot duplicate the serial...
www.atf.gov www.atf.gov
Click to expand...

But under what authority? They're pretty clear that unless you do X, Y, or Z, no markings at all are required. "none are required" is the same as "you can do anything" If I put my father's birthday on a gun to memorialize him, is that a serial number, or art? If I put my father's birthday on a gun and Mass. treats it like a serial number, that doesn't suddenly invoke the full force of ATF requirements for manufacturers. (right?)

I'm trying to imagine when the ATF would say, "this thing that doesn't require a serial number at all under our jurisdiction is in violation of ATF rule XYZ because Mass. puts this number in a database"


pastera said:
Do you have to do it? Maybe - we don't 100% know until a court case tells us.
Click to expand...

The quoted text about "valid serial number" only applies to FFL holders who are manufacturers, right?

pastera said:
The regulations state that PMFs are exempt from compliance until they enter the normal stream of commerce - but Mass is calling out 26 U.S.C. 5842 as a method of compliance with Mass law.
Click to expand...

26 U.S.C. 5842 explicitly refers to those in the business of manufacturing guns. I am not one of those because I only have an LTC (and FFL03, but that's explicitly NOT an manufacturing license)
 
milktree said:
But under what authority? They're pretty clear that unless you do X, Y, or Z, no markings at all are required. "none are required" is the same as "you can do anything" If I put my father's birthday on a gun to memorialize him, is that a serial number, or art? If I put my father's birthday on a gun and Mass. treats it like a serial number, that doesn't suddenly invoke the full force of ATF requirements for manufacturers. (right?)

I'm trying to imagine when the ATF would say, "this thing that doesn't require a serial number at all under our jurisdiction is in violation of ATF rule XYZ because Mass. puts this number in a database"




The quoted text about "valid serial number" only applies to FFL holders who are manufacturers, right?



26 U.S.C. 5842 explicitly refers to those in the business of manufacturing guns. I am not one of those because I only have an LTC (and FFL03, but that's explicitly NOT an manufacturing license)
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Mass now requires all non-exempt firearms to have a serial number.
Mass even defines what a "valid serial number" is but it never references it in the law from what I can see.

So while the definition of a "valid serial number" is there, nothing in the law says that a person must follow anything other than the minimum depth and font size and that the serial be unique
In order to ensure the number is unique, you would either need to request a serial that Mass creates as being unique or add enough maker information so that the serial can be held to be unique to that particular maker (this is why the ATF requires manufacturer info in addition to a manufacturer unique serial so they don't have to supply unique serial ranges to each manufacturer)

The answer is clear as mud but complying with an ATF compliant serial means there is no question on if YOUR serialization is compliant.
 
milktree said:
But under what authority? They're pretty clear that unless you do X, Y, or Z, no markings at all are required. "none are required" is the same as "you can do anything" If I put my father's birthday on a gun to memorialize him, is that a serial number, or art? If I put my father's birthday on a gun and Mass. treats it like a serial number, that doesn't suddenly invoke the full force of ATF requirements for manufacturers. (right?)

I'm trying to imagine when the ATF would say, "this thing that doesn't require a serial number at all under our jurisdiction is in violation of ATF rule XYZ because Mass. puts this number in a database"




The quoted text about "valid serial number" only applies to FFL holders who are manufacturers, right?



26 U.S.C. 5842 explicitly refers to those in the business of manufacturing guns. I am not one of those because I only have an LTC (and FFL03, but that's explicitly NOT an manufacturing license)
Click to expand...
As someone who has ATF tax stamps on Personally Made Firearms, the ATF considers my trust as the maker and I had to have a serial number as well as the name of my trust and the city and state etched into my receiver, so it is not just for manufacturers or FFL holders.

I also etched other markings into my receiver, these are of no concern to the ATF and are considered “decorations”.

I believe Your Dads birth date engraved into a receiver would also be considered a “decoration” by the ATF.

What Mass law considers any of these things, we are only guessing.
 
Does H4885 hold the force of law when carrying concealed and presented with "No Weapons Allowed" signage (or similar) on entry to a building/residence, etc...?
 
foobar said:
Does H4885 hold the force of law when carrying concealed and presented with "No Weapons Allowed" signage (or similar) on entry to a building/residence, etc...?
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No change in the fact that signs are not binding. They must ask you to leave at which point you are trespassing.
 
What's up with Goal's new summary on chapter 135? Does this mean my Sig MCX that I bought from a dealer that was in inventory on 8/1. But wasn't able to pick up for some time after that due to compliance work is illegal?

Any gun that is not on the enumerated list, or their copies and duplicates, but now meets the new two feature test and is lawfully possessed in Massachusetts on August 1, 2024. We believe this group also includes the pre-September 13, 2024 assault weapons.
 
If Trump wins, my guess is the Supreme Court will have the balls to flush most of this silliness down the toilet, where it belongs - ARs & standard capacity mags (20 & 30) will be off the Mass Libtard's table in the next 18 months. Perhaps sooner.

Secondary items, in Chapter 135, will simply be a nuisance that you can follow if you like. Most of us won't. 3rd tier items like licensing training requirements - we'll see....
 
novo said:
What's up with Goal's new summary on chapter 135? Does this mean my Sig MCX that I bought from a dealer that was in inventory on 8/1. But wasn't able to pick up for some time after that due to compliance work is illegal?
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No

Stop panicking lmao
 
Bmcl322 said:
If Trump wins, my guess is the Supreme Court will have the balls to flush most of this silliness down the toilet, where it belongs - ARs & standard capacity mags (20 & 30) will be off the Mass Libtard's table in the next 18 months. Perhaps sooner.
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SCOTUS' balls on current, pending cases don't have anything to do with who the sitting president is. The Bruen decision came down during the Biden administration, after all, and that was perhaps the ballsiest thing they've done on firearms in years.

Trump's effect on SCOTUS this time will be similar to his effect on SCOTUS last time: he'll put on RKBA justices.
 

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