Practical Implications of H4885 for Purchasing and Possessing

Speaking of PCCs, can AR pattern lowers still be transferred of are they ALL considered "assault style" now?
 
Jeffaah said:
Curious about serialized SCT Glock frames. Are those able to be acquired in mass?

I have a gen3 Glock slide that I’d love to do something with.
Click to expand...
Glocks are & have been on the roster - therefore, under the new law I'd say a Glock frame could legally be transferred by any MA dealer. A frame cannot fail the EOPPS safety tests. So buy all the Glock frames you want folks and build them up. What say the experts in the room ?
 
DiDi said:
Glocks are & have been on the roster - therefore, under the new law I'd say a Glock frame could legally be transferred by any MA dealer. A frame cannot fail the EOPPS safety tests. So buy all the Glock frames you want folks and build them up. What say the experts in the room ?
Click to expand...
account made 3 days ago, not green.... nice try Maura
 
Shevchenko said:
account made 3 days ago, not green.... nice try Maura
Click to expand...

What about what @DiDi said do you disagree with?

I'd have phrased it, "the AG's requirements don't apply to frames" and not "they can't fail the tests", because it's more correct, but that's a pretty small nit to pick. (A frame can't pass the AG's test either)
 
milktree said:
What about what @DiDi said do you disagree with?

I'd have phrased it, "the AG's requirements don't apply to frames" and not "they can't fail the tests", because it's more correct, but that's a pretty small nit to pick. (A frame can't pass the AG's test either)
Click to expand...

How dare he try to be funny. It's sarcasm, even I got that.
 
milktree said:
What about what @DiDi said do you disagree with?

I'd have phrased it, "the AG's requirements don't apply to frames" and not "they can't fail the tests", because it's more correct, but that's a pretty small nit to pick. (A frame can't pass the AG's test either)
Click to expand...
But the original question was specifically about SCT 'glock compatible' frames, if they're not on the 'regular' roster then no bueno in ma.
How is a frame going to get on the roster if they don't even sell complete guns...? (or do they?)
 
FireMedic102 said:
You can still buy a new M1A but the end of the barrel has no threads and no muzzle device.
Click to expand...
Many shops are selling them with pinned devices. Destroying the threads is a belt and suspenders approach for the most risk averse.

Edit: M1A isn’t exempt, M1 carbines are.
 
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DiDi said:
Glocks are & have been on the roster - therefore, under the new law I'd say a Glock frame could legally be transferred by any MA dealer. A frame cannot fail the EOPPS safety tests. So buy all the Glock frames you want folks and build them up. What say the experts in the room ?
Click to expand...
Glocks are AG banned via the CMR, and a licensed dealer (and only a licensed dealer) selling one is committing an unfair and deveptive trade practice.

Comm2a sued in federal court (Draper, Boudrie, etc. vs Healy). The court granted summary judgement stating "all claims by AG accepted, all claims by plaintiff rejected". The court would not give us a chance to present evidence, declared the lack of of a loaded chamber indicator was obvious from the manual, and upheld the authority of the AG to regulate sale.

If you can find a dealer to sell you a Glock, you are not breaking the law or violating any regulation, but are a "victim" of an unfair and deceptige trade practice. [puke]
 
Rob Boudrie said:
Glocks are AG banned via the CMR, and a licensed dealer (and only a licensed dealer) selling one is committing an unfair and deveptive trade practice.

Comm2a sued in federal court (Draper, Boudrie, etc. vs Healy). The court granted summary judgement stating "all claims by AG accepted, all claims by plaintiff rejected". The court would not give us a chance to present evidence, declared the lack of of a loaded chamber indicator was obvious from the manual, and upheld the authority of the AG to regulate sale.

If you can find a dealer to sell you a Glock, you are not breaking the law or violating any regulation, but are a "victim" of an unfair and deceptige trade practice. [puke]
Click to expand...
It was and remains my opinion that on roster glock frames may be sold by ffls. The consumer protection law addresses the sale of "handguns" not frames or receivers. My opinion was recently adopted by Chief Glidden in a statement to LE seeking guidance on this issue.
 
nstassel said:
It was and remains my opinion that on roster glock frames may be sold by ffls. The consumer protection law addresses the sale of "handguns" not frames or receivers. My opinion was recently adopted by Chief Glidden in a statement to LE seeking guidance on this issue.
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That is excellent news, however, the trick is finding a dealer who agrees with that interpretation. For the buyer, that is the only opinion that matters.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
declared the lack of of a loaded chamber indicator was obvious from the manual, and upheld the authority of the AG to regulate sale.
Click to expand...
So, using this information, can't they just come out with a new model (new generation?), and have that explicitly described in the new manuals?

This would most certainly encourage the purchase of new Glocks.
 
nstassel said:
It was and remains my opinion that on roster glock frames may be sold by ffls. The consumer protection law addresses the sale of "handguns" not frames or receivers. My opinion was recently adopted by Chief Glidden in a statement to LE seeking guidance on this issue.
Click to expand...
That's awesome! Appreciate your work on that! I will be retaining your services when Maura's Boots come for me for bogus CMRs.

-JR
 
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Rob Boudrie said:
That is excellent news, however, the trick is finding a dealer who agrees with that interpretation. For the buyer, that is the only opinion that matters.
Click to expand...

There are several dealers that agree with that interpretation because words have meanings and definitions matter. Aforementioned dealers share onething in common; their address starts with 410 Great Road.
 
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Coyote33 said:
So, using this information, can't they just come out with a new model (new generation?), and have that explicitly described in the new manuals?

This would most certainly encourage the purchase of new Glocks.
Click to expand...
I don't know how enthusiastic Glock would be in creating a new generation just for MA sales.
 
I am trying to nail down "where does it say", please correct me if I got the wrong reference links. As I layman, I cannot understand how current law can reference parts of expired laws...confusing! I bolded text related to discussion.

The following links were found online at Mass.gov
Frequently Asked Questions about the Assault Weapons Ban Notice (2016?)

https://www.mass.gov/guides/frequen...ut-the-assault-weapons-ban-enforcement-notice
"On July 20, 2016, the Attorney General issued an Enforcement Notice on Prohibited Assault Weapons that provides gun manufacturers, licensed dealers, and the public with guidance on the Assault Weapons ban. In particular, the notice explains how the Attorney General identifies weapons that are prohibited as “copies” or “duplicates” of the enumerated banned Assault Weapons that are listed in Massachusetts law.

This FAQ is intended to summarize the Enforcement Notice."

Scroll down to question: Are there examples or categories of weapons that are not copies or duplicates of Assault Weapons
"Yes. Many rifles, shotguns, and pistols are not copies or duplicates of enumerated Assault Weapons. For example, the following are not copies or duplicates under G.L. c. 140, § 121:

  • Any handgun on the August 2016 version of the state’s Approved Firearms Roster, available here.
  • Handguns are still subject to MA 940 CMR 16.00 et seq Consumer Protection Regulations;
  • Any .17 or .22 caliber rimfire rifle;
  • Any Ruger Mini 14 or substantially similar model weapon;
  • Beretta Cx4 Storm
  • FN PS90 or substantially similar model weapon;
  • IWI Tavor or substantially similar model weapon;
  • Kel-Tec Sub-2000
  • Kel-Tec RFB
  • Any Springfield Armory M1A or substantially similar model weapon;
  • Any of the hundreds of rifles and shotguns on this list —Appendix A to 18 U.S.C. § 922, as appearing on September 13, 1994;
  • Any weapon that is operated by manual bolt, pump, lever, or slide action;
  • Any weapon that is an antique, relic, or theatrical prop;
  • Any semiautomatic rifle that cannot accept a detachable magazine that holds more than five rounds of ammunition;
  • Any semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than five rounds of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine.
This list is not exhaustive; it is meant for illustrative purposes only. Many other weapons are not Assault Weapons or copies or duplicates of Assault Weapons. "

nm1 said:
The ‘94 ban exemption list has the M1 Carbine, not the M1A, so it’s not exempt by name.
Click to expand...

https://www.mass.gov/doc/appendix-a-to-18-usc-s-922-guns/download
page 1 of 15
Iver Johnson M-1 Carbine
Iver Johnson 50th Anniversary M-1 Carbine
What about other M-1 Carbine manufacturers?

So am I right that an M1A is NOT banned by name; it NOT banned as a copy of banned Assault Weapons. You can have your M1A with a 10 round mag and green eggs and ham?
 
Coda said:
I don't know how enthusiastic Glock would be in creating a new generation just for MA sales.
Click to expand...
They do a new generation every couple years anyhow. Just add the language into the manuals. Isn't the claim that they already have a chamber indicator? I don't have a Glock, so don't know.
 
Coyote33 said:
So, using this information, can't they just come out with a new model (new generation?), and have that explicitly described in the new manuals?

This would most certainly encourage the purchase of new Glocks.
Click to expand...
It will be tough to get past res judicata.

The best approach would be a brave (or terminally ill*) dealer who will sell based on "These new glocks are different" and for bonus points, even going over the part of the manual with the loaded chamber indicator with the customer and having them sign an acknoledgement they have been shown this info and had the feature demonstrated with dummy rounds. Would make it hard for the AG to win, however, it would indeed take a brave dealer.

* - Needs to be a short enough life expectancy to be dead before the AG could actualy get a penalty and collection through the courts
 
Every time a gun maker comes out with a new model, don't they have to test it as though it was a totally different gun in order to be listed? Why would that same thinking not apply here?
 
Coyote33 said:
Every time a gun maker comes out with a new model, don't they have to test it as though it was a totally different gun in order to be listed? Why would that same thinking not apply here?
Click to expand...
The law is silent as to what is a new model, particularly if the gun maker does not give it a new model number but offers a gun with options. Does an optional optical sight make a gun a new model? What of an optional PVD/DLC/Ceracote finish on a gun where the non-optioned version comes in blued? Or what of a stainless option on a gun normally offered in blue? And what if the manufacturer improves a model without a change in designation, for example, using 4340 insted of 4140 steel or changing from machined from billet action parts to MIM to save money.

At one point, Colt shipped 1911s with plastic *yes, plastic" mainspring housings. If that change was made silently on an approved model would it become a new model?

The answer is that anyone who claims to know for sure in only guessing.
 
Last edited:
loneranger said:
I am trying to nail down "where does it say", please correct me if I got the wrong reference links. As I layman, I cannot understand how current law can reference parts of expired laws...confusing! I bolded text related to discussion.

The following links were found online at Mass.gov
Frequently Asked Questions about the Assault Weapons Ban Notice (2016?)

https://www.mass.gov/guides/frequen...ut-the-assault-weapons-ban-enforcement-notice
"On July 20, 2016, the Attorney General issued an Enforcement Notice on Prohibited Assault Weapons that provides gun manufacturers, licensed dealers, and the public with guidance on the Assault Weapons ban. In particular, the notice explains how the Attorney General identifies weapons that are prohibited as “copies” or “duplicates” of the enumerated banned Assault Weapons that are listed in Massachusetts law.

This FAQ is intended to summarize the Enforcement Notice."

Scroll down to question: Are there examples or categories of weapons that are not copies or duplicates of Assault Weapons
"Yes. Many rifles, shotguns, and pistols are not copies or duplicates of enumerated Assault Weapons. For example, the following are not copies or duplicates under G.L. c. 140, § 121:

  • Any handgun on the August 2016 version of the state’s Approved Firearms Roster, available here.
  • Handguns are still subject to MA 940 CMR 16.00 et seq Consumer Protection Regulations;
  • Any .17 or .22 caliber rimfire rifle;
  • Any Ruger Mini 14 or substantially similar model weapon;
  • Beretta Cx4 Storm
  • FN PS90 or substantially similar model weapon;
  • IWI Tavor or substantially similar model weapon;
  • Kel-Tec Sub-2000
  • Kel-Tec RFB
  • Any Springfield Armory M1A or substantially similar model weapon;
  • Any of the hundreds of rifles and shotguns on this list —Appendix A to 18 U.S.C. § 922, as appearing on September 13, 1994;
  • Any weapon that is operated by manual bolt, pump, lever, or slide action;
  • Any weapon that is an antique, relic, or theatrical prop;
  • Any semiautomatic rifle that cannot accept a detachable magazine that holds more than five rounds of ammunition;
  • Any semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than five rounds of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine.
This list is not exhaustive; it is meant for illustrative purposes only. Many other weapons are not Assault Weapons or copies or duplicates of Assault Weapons. "



https://www.mass.gov/doc/appendix-a-to-18-usc-s-922-guns/download
page 1 of 15
Iver Johnson M-1 Carbine
Iver Johnson 50th Anniversary M-1 Carbine
What about other M-1 Carbine manufacturers?

So am I right that an M1A is NOT banned by name; it NOT banned as a copy of banned Assault Weapons. You can have your M1A with a 10 round mag and green eggs and ham?
Click to expand...
The M1A in a non-pistol grip/non telescoping stock and threaded barrel was always ok under the old MA ban (the 2016 FAQ lists it as an example of non-ambiguously ok rifles even with the Healey language).
The exempt list from the '94 ban has the M-1 Carbine which is a totally different rifle, so the M1A does not get 'special' exempt status under the old or new law, it simply passed the feature/copy&duplicate test of the old ban in certain configs.

Since it's not exempt by name in any config it has to pass the new feature test under the new law - which means an M1A is ok if it has a straight stock/pinned muzzled device/then the one feature remaining is the barrel shroud.

Of course it could be later banned by name in the newly created ASW roster.
 
loneranger said:
I am trying to nail down "where does it say", please correct me if I got the wrong reference links. As I layman, I cannot understand how current law can reference parts of expired laws...confusing! I bolded text related to discussion.

The following links were found online at Mass.gov
Frequently Asked Questions about the Assault Weapons Ban Notice (2016?)

https://www.mass.gov/guides/frequen...ut-the-assault-weapons-ban-enforcement-notice
"On July 20, 2016, the Attorney General issued an Enforcement Notice on Prohibited Assault Weapons that provides gun manufacturers, licensed dealers, and the public with guidance on the Assault Weapons ban. In particular, the notice explains how the Attorney General identifies weapons that are prohibited as “copies” or “duplicates” of the enumerated banned Assault Weapons that are listed in Massachusetts law.

This FAQ is intended to summarize the Enforcement Notice."

Scroll down to question: Are there examples or categories of weapons that are not copies or duplicates of Assault Weapons
"Yes. Many rifles, shotguns, and pistols are not copies or duplicates of enumerated Assault Weapons. For example, the following are not copies or duplicates under G.L. c. 140, § 121:

  • Any handgun on the August 2016 version of the state’s Approved Firearms Roster, available here.
  • Handguns are still subject to MA 940 CMR 16.00 et seq Consumer Protection Regulations;
  • Any .17 or .22 caliber rimfire rifle;
  • Any Ruger Mini 14 or substantially similar model weapon;
  • Beretta Cx4 Storm
  • FN PS90 or substantially similar model weapon;
  • IWI Tavor or substantially similar model weapon;
  • Kel-Tec Sub-2000
  • Kel-Tec RFB
  • Any Springfield Armory M1A or substantially similar model weapon;
  • Any of the hundreds of rifles and shotguns on this list —Appendix A to 18 U.S.C. § 922, as appearing on September 13, 1994;
  • Any weapon that is operated by manual bolt, pump, lever, or slide action;
  • Any weapon that is an antique, relic, or theatrical prop;
  • Any semiautomatic rifle that cannot accept a detachable magazine that holds more than five rounds of ammunition;
  • Any semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than five rounds of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine.
This list is not exhaustive; it is meant for illustrative purposes only. Many other weapons are not Assault Weapons or copies or duplicates of Assault Weapons. "



https://www.mass.gov/doc/appendix-a-to-18-usc-s-922-guns/download
page 1 of 15
Iver Johnson M-1 Carbine
Iver Johnson 50th Anniversary M-1 Carbine
What about other M-1 Carbine manufacturers?

So am I right that an M1A is NOT banned by name; it NOT banned as a copy of banned Assault Weapons. You can have your M1A with a 10 round mag and green eggs and ham?
Click to expand...
Ignore the FAQ. It is not representative of what passed in chapter 135.
 
If they wanted to, couldn't Glock just update the manuals for existing models to state that they have a loaded chamber indicator.
They could back this up with illustrations showing how to feel and observe the position of the extractor.

And if asked about this change, Glock could just state that they have always believed that their pistols had a loaded chamber indicator, and that they believed that all properly trained people knew how to use it. Of course, they could only make these statements if they are true, but they likely are.
 
I just don't think Glock cares that much about sales in MA. It would be such a small percentage of their total sales volume.

I like Glocks and I know it sucks, but I believe they are like so many other manufactures and vendors that just don't want to deal with the MA BS.

I wish I could be more optimistic.
 

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