Practical Implications of H4885 for Purchasing and Possessing

[Woodsloafer]

If it’s rimfire it cannot be assault style.

So are these good to go (with 10 rd mags)? I keep having some stupid recurring desire for one.

F17®-X

Franklin Armory is a California & Nevada quality based AR-15 manufacturer. We offer quality, reliable firearms for civilians, law enforcement, & military agencies

franklinarmory.com

F17®-L

Franklin Armory is a California & Nevada quality based AR-15 manufacturer. We offer quality, reliable firearms for civilians, law enforcement, & military agencies

franklinarmory.com

 

[KAG Arms]

So are these good to go (with 10 rd mags)? I keep having some stupid recurring desire for one.

F17®-X

Franklin Armory is a California & Nevada quality based AR-15 manufacturer. We offer quality, reliable firearms for civilians, law enforcement, & military agencies

franklinarmory.com

F17®-L

Franklin Armory is a California & Nevada quality based AR-15 manufacturer. We offer quality, reliable firearms for civilians, law enforcement, & military agencies

franklinarmory.com

Is it rimfire?

 

[Woodsloafer]

Is it rimfire?

Yes, 17 WSM

 

[Coda]

I keep having some stupid recurring desire for one.

I can see why, that looks like fun!!!

 

[KAG Arms]

Yes, 17 WSM

So it is NOT an "Assault-Style firearm"

“Assault-style firearm”, any firearm which is:
(a) a semiautomatic, centerfire rifle with the capacity to accept a detachable feeding device and includes at least 2 of the following features: (i) a folding or telescopic stock; (ii) a thumbhole stock or pistol grip; (iii) a forward grip or second handgrip or protruding grip that can be held by the non-trigger hand; (iv) a threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor or muzzle break or similar feature; or (v) a shroud that encircles either all or part of the barrel designed to shield the bearer’s hand from heat, excluding a slide that encloses the barrel.

Session Law - Acts of 2024 Chapter 135

malegislature.gov

 

[milktree]

If they wanted to, couldn't Glock just update the manuals for existing models to state that they have a loaded chamber indicator.
They could back this up with illustrations showing how to feel and observe the position of the extractor.

And if asked about this change, Glock could just state that they have always believed that their pistols had a loaded chamber indicator, and that they believed that all properly trained people knew how to use it. Of course, they could only make these statements if they are true, but they likely are.

The problem isn't what Glock calls it. Everyone knows the bump on the extractor is a loaded chamber indicator. It's exactly the same tech as on a Beretta 92FS, but implemented better.

The problem is that the AG's office "decided" that it wasn't good enough, because reasons, and the court said "OK!" without any review of facts or anything.

 

[Coyote33]

This is why they should just come out with all new models in their next generation, and start over fresh.

P.S. The changes do not have to be expensive or big, maybe even just some orange paint or something, with a freshening up of the owners manuals.

 

[drgrant]

But the original question was specifically about SCT 'glock compatible' frames, if they're not on the 'regular' roster then no bueno in ma.
How is a frame going to get on the roster if they don't even sell complete guns...? (or do they?)

Less questions more shopping.....

 

[drgrant]

If they wanted to, couldn't Glock just update the manuals for existing models to state that they have a loaded chamber indicator.
They could back this up with illustrations showing how to feel and observe the position of the extractor.

And if asked about this change, Glock could just state that they have always believed that their pistols had a loaded chamber indicator, and that they believed that all properly trained people knew how to use it. Of course, they could only make these statements if they are true, but they likely are.

Glock is done dealing with AG bullshit. People should be grateful they even put the guns on the roster at this point. Honestly who gives a shit that deli ticket emporium won't sell them OTC? You can still drive around CMR940.

 

[EJFudd]

The problem isn't what Glock calls it. Everyone knows the bump on the extractor is a loaded chamber indicator. It's exactly the same tech as on a Beretta 92FS, but implemented better.

The problem is that the AG's office "decided" that it wasn't good enough, because reasons, and the court said "OK!" without any review of facts or anything.

Folks looking for the AG's ban to make sense don't get it. It was a political power play... a political thang... not a real physical safety concern.

To this day, I still believe it was at least partially a tip of the hat to MA employer & tax-paying company Smith & Wesson. Wouldn't matter now, but then...?

 

[drgrant]

To this day, I still believe it was at least partially a tip of the hat to MA employer & tax-paying company Smith & Wesson. Wouldn't matter now, but then...?

S&W got whacked by the AG on the M&P too, so that blows a school bus hole in that theory.

 

[SJan]

So, using this information, can't they just come out with a new model (new generation?), and have that explicitly described in the new manuals?

This would most certainly encourage the purchase of new Glocks.

I don't know how enthusiastic Glock would be in creating a new generation just for MA sales.

It's already in the manual. They don't care

LOADED CHAMBER INDICATOR: The
extractor (10) serves as a loaded chamber
indicator (Picture 1) to comply with the laws of
certain states and its position may visually and
physically indicate whether there is a cartridge in
the chamber of the pistol. When the chamber is
unloaded the extractor is depressed and is flush
with the surface of the slide (Picture 2). When the
chamber is loaded the extractor pivots out from
the slide (Picture 3), and can be felt with one’s
fingertip.

 

[drgrant]

This is why they should just come out with all new models in their next generation, and start over fresh.

P.S. The changes do not have to be expensive or big, maybe even just some orange paint or something, with a freshening up of the owners manuals.

Not necessary.

AG would still block it so why bother. (This is a chronic thing from the AGO vs Glock and S&W striker fired handguns, its practically hardcoded the sitting AG has to harass them. )

It has absolutely nothing to do with the actual handgun itself.

 

[EJFudd]

S&W got whacked by the AG on the M&P too, so that blows a school bus hole in that theory.

Not necessary.

AG would still block it so why bother. (This is a chronic thing from the AGO vs Glock and S&W striker fired handguns, its practically hardcoded the sitting AG has to harass them. )

It has absolutely nothing to do with the actual handgun itself.

I must have missed the news that S&W M&P pistols are banned in MA by the AG just like Glocks.

Does this mean I can get a giant premium for selling my old unwanted M&P handguns in the classifieds?

 

[drgrant]

I must have missed the news that S&W M&P pistols are banned in MA by the AG just like Glocks.

Does this mean I can get a giant premium for selling my old unwanted M&P handguns in the classifieds?

No, it's not at the same level but when you looking at striker guns S&W had to more or less break the gun to sell it. Glock just got worse treatment in the wash. There was a time where S&W was trying to avoid CMR940 with the M&P 45 manual safety. A few dealers sold those unmolested for about a month till the AG cracked them.

Smith still sells 13lb trigger guns here. Out of all the striker guns you can buy in mass, theirs has the worst trigger because of the AGs office f***ing with them while other brands are still entirely ignored.

 

[EJFudd]

No, it's not at the same level but when you looking at striker guns S&W had to more or less break the gun to sell it. Glock just got worse treatment in the wash. There was a time where S&W was trying to avoid CMR940 with the M&P 45 manual safety. A few dealers sold those unmolested for about a month till the AG cracked them.

Smith still sells 13lb trigger guns here. Out of all the striker guns you can buy in mass, theirs has the worst trigger because of the AGs office f***ing with them while other brands are still entirely ignored.

Damn, you had me going there. I thought for a moment that I could cash in big on those "Banned in MA" S&W M&P pistols sitting in the back of my safe. I guess not really.

I would submit to you that the Glock ban is a whole lot different than what you described with S&W pistols. In fact, historically, S&W has always gone well out of their way to keep that MA AG's office happy... which is why the M&P's in MA feature such piss-poor triggers.

Remember if you are old enough... There was a time when MA pols actuality loved S&W... one of the biggest employers and tax-paying businesses in MA. That was before the leftist pols went full Commie retard and decided S&W was actually the enemy... no longer a money and jobs-producing friend.

 

[drgrant]

Damn, you had me going there. I thought for a moment that I could cash in big on those "Banned in MA" S&W M&P pistols sitting in the back of my safe. I guess not really.

I would submit to you that the Glock ban is a whole lot different than what you described with S&W pistols. In fact, historically, S&W has always gone well out of their way to keep that MA AG's office happy... which is why the M&P's in MA feature such piss-poor triggers.

Yes it is different, my point is there are entire manufacturers who sell normal product here virtually unmolested.

Remember if you are old enough... There was a time when MA pols actuality loved S&W... one of the biggest employers and tax-paying businesses in MA. That was before the leftist pols went full Commie retard and decided S&W was actually the enemy... no longer a money and jobs-producing friend.

I still don't think there was a bias to ignore or protect S&W, that's my point. The AGs office has always had byzantine logic in terms of enforcing CMR940 and I think its based on the popularity of the guns. Up until the past few years the two most popular brands in mass were S&W and Glock. The AG didnt like "that" and went after both.

 

[KMM696]

Yes it is different, my point is there are entire manufacturers who sell normal product here virtually unmolested.



I still don't think there was a bias to ignore or protect S&W, that's my point. The AGs office has always had byzantine logic in terms of enforcing CMR940 and I think its based on the popularity of the guns. Up until the past few years the two most popular brands in mass were S&W and Glock. The AG didnt like "that" and went after both.

This is the sort of thing that has led me to not blaming S&W at all for their moving as many pieces as they could out of state.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Several years ago, Glock was hauled into court in MA when then AG Healy wanted all of Glocks warrantee/maintenance records to use in her jihad against the company. Glock sent a pair of attorneys and about a dozen folks from NES showed up to watch the proceeding, but it was done in a low volume conversation at the bench so it was hard to tell exactly what was going on.

But, when Glocks VP / General counsel has to fly up to MA to deal with BS like that, they are not likely to forget. I don't think Glock every did anythng directly with the AG regulations.

 

[Coda]

Several years ago, Glock was hauled into court in MA when then AG Healy wanted all of Glocks warrantee/maintenance records to use in her jihad against the company. Glock sent a pair of attorneys and about a dozen folks from NES showed up to watch the proceeding, but it was done in a low volume conversation at the bench so it was hard to tell exactly what was going on.

But, when Glocks VP / General counsel has to fly up to MA to deal with BS like that, they are not likely to forget. I don't think Glock every did anythng directly with the AG regulations.

This pretty much sums it up.

Glock couldn't care less about MA sales, it's a drop in the bucket for them. MA is good at scaring away gun companies and that is not going change anytime soon.

 

[pastera]

So, using this information, can't they just come out with a new model (new generation?), and have that explicitly described in the new manuals?

This would most certainly encourage the purchase of new Glocks.

If Glock were interested they would really only need to update the manual to call out the raised extractor as a tactile indication of a loaded chamber (with a caution that mechanical safeties can fail and operator should visually inspect the chamber as a best practice)

 

[pastera]

This is why they should just come out with all new models in their next generation, and start over fresh.

P.S. The changes do not have to be expensive or big, maybe even just some orange paint or something, with a freshening up of the owners manuals.

You don't appease tyrants
That's how we got to where we are.

 

[drgrant]

.

This pretty much sums it up.

Glock couldn't care less about MA sales, it's a drop in the bucket for them. MA is good at scaring away gun companies and that is not going change anytime soon.

Lol Glock is probably #3 in sales in MA wether the AG likes it or not. They care enough to get them on the roster, which gives just enough leverage.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

If Glock were interested they would really only need to update the manual to call out the raised extractor as a tactile indication of a loaded chamber (with a caution that mechanical safeties can fail and operator should visually inspect the chamber as a best practice)

No. The actual decision goes into how the loaded chamber is not "obvious" and easy to recognize.

Do you really think the AG will rescind the edict even if Glock notifies them the manual has been updated? The only path would be to have dealers sell Glocks based on new informaton (good luck with that) and use any new info to try to overcome res jidicata and bring another case.

Remmber, the AG's position is "we offer interpretations only when prosecuting; hire an attorney to explain the law to you".

 

[Mesatchornug]

If Glock were interested they would really only need to update the manual to call out the raised extractor as a tactile indication of a loaded chamber (with a caution that mechanical safeties can fail and operator should visually inspect the chamber as a best practice)

As quoted by @SJan, above, it already says that, and has at least as far back as the 3rd generation (IIRC).

 

[Ammo_Dispenser]

.

Lol Glock is probably #3 in sales in MA wether the AG likes it or not. They care enough to get them on the roster, which gives just enough leverage.

Yep, and MA buyers tends to pay premiums in firearms so I think there's definitely an interest to operate in this state despite the legal hurdles AG and team try to throw on them.

 

[Coyote33]

As quoted by @SJan, above, it already says that, and has at least as far back as the 3rd generation (IIRC).

Right. And as I was saying, the state will crack down and make any change a new item to consider. Use this thinking AGAINST THEM, and change the wording, or the color of the paint, or anything. One little change, and it is considered an entirely new item, ready for reconsideration fresh from the get-go. This could open the door for a new set of eyes on all models.

 

[Mesatchornug]

Right. And as I was saying, the state will crack down and make any change a new item to consider. Use this thinking AGAINST THEM, and change the wording, or the color of the paint, or anything. One little change, and it is considered an entirely new item, ready for reconsideration fresh from the get-go. This could open the door for a new set of eyes on all models.

I'm not sure if I wasn't clear.

The manual points to a specified loaded chamber indicator.

The courts claimed the manual says there's no LCI, then found against us.

How do you propose we update anything then claim that it now has something they say it didn't have based on a document that explicitly shows it does?

It seems you're assuming they'll act in good faith; they've shown they won't, at least in this case.

 

[drgrant]

Right. And as I was saying, the state will crack down and make any change a new item to consider. Use this thinking AGAINST THEM, and change the wording, or the color of the paint, or anything. One little change, and it is considered an entirely new item, ready for reconsideration fresh from the get-go. This could open the door for a new set of eyes on all models.

Sorry but this is a dead end/waste of time. Glock is done playing the games with the AG, and still, 27 yrs later why should they bother? Just so the shittiest gun shops in the state can sell over the counter? Meanwhile everyone is still getting them regardless.

ETA: just realized this saga is going on 30 yrs.

 

[Mesatchornug]

ETA: just realized this saga is going on 30 yrs.

Right?

Grabs walker...did you know September '94 is closer to the moon landing than to today?