Preban Lower receivers

[Christian]

So, I assume when it comes time to sell your house, you will base it on a fair markup relative to what you paid, rather than the maximum the market will bear?

Get back to me when the AG bans newly built homes and throws homes built since 94' into question, but good job at trying to equate Ma. gun owners current issues to something completely unrelated.

I hate free market economics too. What a drag.

What free market? Again, if one existed stripped lowers would still be able to be had for <$100 and complete rifles for $600-$700. Calling what we currently have a free market is like saying getting punched in the d*ck is the same as getting a handy, when the truth of it is just because somebody else's hand touched your d*ck doesn't make it getting a handy.


Folks keep going on about free market,

<insert Princess Bride Meme>

when what we actually have is a captive market.

 

[bostonasphalt2]

Get back to me when the AG bans newly built homes and throws homes built since 94' into question, but good job at trying to equate Ma. gun owners current issues to something completely unrelated.



What free market? Again, if one existed stripped lowers would still be able to be had for <$100 and complete rifles for $600-$700. Calling what we currently have a free market is like saying getting punched in the d*ck is the same as getting a handy, when the truth of it is just because somebody else's hand touched your d*ck doesn't make it getting a handy.


Folks keep going on about free market,

<insert Princess Bride Meme>

when what we actually have is a captive market.

yes, but you're bitching about people making profit. That is the last element left for this market to have ay semblance of freedom. You say the lower isn't worth a grand, but the market says otherwise, and the market is MUCH larger than just you. Also, the people who participate in this market (the sellers), didn't create the market constraints you see, so there is a disconnect between calling it not a free market.

 

[Christian]

yes, but you're bitching about people making profit. That is the last element left for this market to have ay semblance of freedom. You say the lower isn't worth a grand, but the market says otherwise, and the market is MUCH larger than just you. Also, the people who participate in this market (the sellers), didn't create the market constraints you see, so there is a disconnect between calling it not a free market.

I've no problem with folks/companies making profit, what I don't agree with is the absurd level of profit(sorry but I've always had issues with excessive greed). What I've seen here(and elsewhere) though is pretty much the same most have experienced with health insurance premiums, folks getting hosed because there's no other option.

It's difficult enough in this state for gun owners on the whole, I don't see the need for more difficulty to be self inflicted.

 

[TLB]

I've no problem with folks/companies making profit, what I don't agree with is the absurd level of profit(sorry but I've always had issues with excessive greed). What I've seen here(and elsewhere) though is pretty much the same most have experienced with health insurance premiums, folks getting hosed because there's no other option.

It's difficult enough in this state for gun owners on the whole, I don't see the need for more difficulty to be self inflicted.

The government isn't compelling anyone to buy lowers. Rising prices help create a supply for people willing to pay for what they really want. It really works well for both sides (supply and demand).

 

[bill o]

Get back to me when the AG bans newly built homes and throws homes built since 94' into question, but good job at trying to equate Ma. gun owners current issues to something completely unrelated.

That kind of compassion just makes you a target for people who will buy your "fair price" lower then re-sell it for what the market will bear. There's no getting around that. It's always the same whether in free markets, unfree markets, black markets, and during natural disasters.

Selling at the highest price you can get is morally virtuous. If you sell a "scarce" lower right now for $60, I might buy it and throw it on top of the mountain of lowers already in my safe. The guy who *really* needs his first AR is the one who will pay $1000 for it, and that's the optimal outcome.

 

[namedpipes]

I have two stripped lowers available at $15k each. I'll even throw in the LPK's for them at no additional cost. Heck, I'll even toss in the stripped uppers! What a guy!

Both were purchased in MA LONG pre Maura and were fa10'd (through an abundance of caution by the sellers) at the time, so you should have no problem proving they are pre-maura-ban.

One is a S&W MP15 lower and the other is ... can't recall. It's either an NES lower or not, from Acme Arms.

 

[DW357]

I have two stripped lowers available at $15k each. I'll even throw in the LPK's for them at no additional cost. Heck, I'll even toss in the stripped uppers! What a guy!

Sold! PM inbound.........

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Get back to me when the AG bans newly built homes and throws homes built since 94' into question, but good job at trying to equate Ma. gun owners current issues to something completely unrelated.

We could make the issue identical by talking about homes in Natick, Newton or Wellesley - those towns are "full" (no vacant land to increase supply) and you are dealing with a product for which there is a finite supply. Does limited supply create a moral obligation on the seller to set a price below the intersection of the supply and demand curve? The basic laws of economics suggest not.

Your answer smells like "That's different, you're talking about my money".

 

[bill o]

We could make the issue identical by talking about homes in Natick, Newton or Wellesley - those towns are "full" (no vacant land to increase supply) and you are dealing with a product for which there is a finite supply. Does limited supply create a moral obligation on the seller to set a price below the intersection of the supply and demand curve? The basic laws of economics suggest not.

Your answer smells like "That's different, you're talking about my money".

As Milton Friedman said... "None of us is ever greedy. It's always the other guy who's greedy."

 

[RG Sports]

If the ATF is running a trace you probably have bigger charges to deal with. In other words what crime got you to that point.

 

[Christian]

That kind of compassion just makes you a target for people who will buy your "fair price" lower then re-sell it for what the market will bear. There's no getting around that. It's always the same whether in free markets, unfree markets, black markets, and during natural disasters.

Selling at the highest price you can get is morally virtuous. If you sell a "scarce" lower right now for $60, I might buy it and throw it on top of the mountain of lowers already in my safe. The guy who *really* needs his first AR is the one who will pay $1000 for it, and that's the optimal outcome.

I've already covered that in an earlier response, ALL my firearms will be coming with me when I finally leave this state specifically so they don't get flipped.

We could make the issue identical by talking about homes in Natick, Newton or Wellesley - those towns are "full" (no vacant land to increase supply) and you are dealing with a product for which there is a finite supply. Does limited supply create a moral obligation on the seller to set a price below the intersection of the supply and demand curve? The basic laws of economics suggest not.

Your answer smells like "That's different, you're talking about my money".

Again housing is a different issue entirely as folks can still purchase new homes elsewhere, try that at any LGS in Ma. with a new just off the truck AR/AK. The housing market hasn't been cut off at the knees by some arbitrary reinterpretation by TPTB.

As Milton Friedman said... "None of us is ever greedy. It's always the other guy who's greedy."

I generally don't sell things as I keep them until I wear them out. My cell phone is coming up on 5yrs., the computer I'm on now is 7yrs., my car is 14yrs., my next car that I'm buying in a couple months will be 17yrs., and the TV I have is the same one I bought in 88'. Out of the few things I have sold I've only made a profit on one item and that's because I was responding to a WTB ad and told the buyer I'd sell it for cost plus shipping as it was just sitting in the parts draw anyhow. When I told him the price he doubled the payment saying he didn't feel right about my price but still considered it a good deal for himself.

Perhaps it's just me, my wants are simple and I don't need much to be content in life. It's just always bothered me to see people being taken advantage of, but if they're okay with being taken I suppose I should be happy for them(for some reason).

 

[slap shot]

I love these capitalism vs socialism threads.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Keep in mind that a pre-ban lower is NOT a pre-ban rifle. It had to have been assembled into a rifle and on the books as a rifle before 9/13/1994 ban went into effect, otherwise you cannot now make it into a pre-ban rifle. Its always going to be a post-ban rifle. Someone recently sold one in the classifieds as a stripped pre-ban lower that was never assembled and asked about a grand for it, never mentioning the fact that the buyer is screwed if he gets caught with a pre-ban config on it and the cops/feds do any research. Its on the books when it left the manufacturer as what it was - rifle/pistol/receiver - and those books are permanent records. Same for any subsequent FFLs it went thru, so it can determined if it was a rifle or not prior to 9/13/94 so be careful and do your homework! Most manufacturers will tell you what it was when it left the factory if you give them the s/n.

I'm calling BS on this. The prosecution would need to prove it's case. IMO, they are not going to try if the mfg date is preban.

I just posted a Sticky in my sub-forum with a list of S/Ns of legit pre-ban (1994) ARs. As I understand it, this was a list provided to BATFE by each mfr at the beginning of the 1994 Clinton AWB. Hopefully ARfcom won't move that URL again where this info is posted.

I have only one such lower left that was FA-10'd by a paranoid dealer at the time. I thankfully have a handful more pre-healey lowers that were never FA-10'd waiting for a fine day in the sun when they will come forth and be built into the greatness that they were born to be. Just the thought of all that potential brings a smile to my face.

I also have lowers bought years before the Healey BS and most of the parts to build them up. But I want collapsible stocks on them, so I'm not going to build them out until MA is in my rear view mirror (hopefully before the end of the year)!

 

[bfm]

I also have lowers bought years before the Healey BS and most of the parts to build them up. But I want collapsible stocks on them, so I'm not going to build them out until MA is in my rear view mirror (hopefully before the end of the year)!

Or, sell them here before you leave for a reasonable mark up and have enough to replace them all and add a few upgrades.

 

[drgrant]

I've no problem with folks/companies making profit, what I don't agree with is the absurd level of profit(sorry but I've always had issues with excessive greed). What I've seen here(and elsewhere) though is pretty much the same most have experienced with health insurance premiums, folks getting hosed because there's no other option.

It's difficult enough in this state for gun owners on the whole, I don't see the need for more difficulty to be self inflicted.

Who gets to define what an "absurd" level of profit is?

If someone is charging too much... then don't f***ing buy the product!

If more people did that, the prices would fall! Maybe do some reasarch, make
offers based on real market prices.

Did you know that on average, I bet the prices are worse now than they were in like 2005? (in terms of "profit") you want to know why? Because the gun owners weren't as dumb back then.... lmao.

Trying to shield people from their own f***ing stupidity is a waste of time, and is actually counterproductive.

Why is this so hard to understand?

I have no sympathy for people who overpay for shit. I overpaid myself quite a few times (mostly at gun dealers) many years ago before I knew better. I don't even resent the sellers for it (and never would) it's my own damned fault for not doing due dilligence! Why don't people take responsibility? This isn't rocket science. Also some of these guys knew they overpaid but didn't care anyways. They got what they wanted and they're happy.

Nobody is forcing anyone to pay shit prices. Not even MA .gov. There's nearly always a way around everything. MA is not some island in the pacific where only the good shit comes in strapped underneath a fishing boat under cover of darkness....

Maybe some people just don't care, either. A few extra hundred on a gun... yawn. I know some people who have less time to buy stuff than even I do, and it makes their life easier to just buy whatever it is rather than having to do legwork.

Also, what if some other poor/dumb bastard overpaid for the thing he's selling? So you're saying he's an a**h*** because he's trying to recover the cash he has in something? lol.
And no, this is not like health insurance premiums, not at all...

This ain't like a guy in the middle of a desert with a $5000 bottle of water, either. So trying to moralize it that way is just absurd.

I guess I just tire of this "downtrodden MA gun owner" trope. It's more depressing
than the actual problem is.

I've already covered that in an earlier response, ALL my firearms will be coming with me when I finally leave this state specifically so they don't get flipped.

Doesn't matter because some guy will just flip brand new stuff all day long to the retards, regardless. I never really agreed with the "leaving stuff behind in MA" stuff anyways, its feel good garbage that is meaningless. Most of the big kid pants/skirt crew just buys whatever they want anyways. If I leave I'd only sell if
I needed the money, and even at that, only to friends...

-Mike

 

[DarthRevan]

For my own ability to sleep at night I spent $900 for a complete Colt Sporter 1 lower with stock when I first had my LTC, it's DOB is somewhere between '78-'87. The large pin is a bitch but I've dealt with it.
Given the way things are now if I had to do it all over again, I don't know if I would be so cautious...
Build it to what was MA-AWB standards and don't tell any one, YMMV.

 

[Christian]

Who gets to define what an "absurd" level of profit is?

It's up to the buyer, but trying to get 3,4,5 times to original price certainly seems absurd(at least to me).

If someone is charging too much... then don't f***ing buy the product!

I won't, but for someone dead set on owning one the only option is taking it in the backside.

If more people did that, the prices would fall! Maybe do some reasarch, make
offers based on real market prices.

It's post 7/20 Ma., there are no real market prices. Folks selling will just sit on them until they get the prices they want.

Did you know that on average, I bet the prices are worse now than they were in like 2005? (in terms of "profit") you want to know why? Because the gun owners weren't as dumb back then.... lmao.

Trying to shield people from their own f***ing stupidity is a waste of time, and is actually counterproductive.

Why is this so hard to understand?

Why's it hard to understand that some people now wanting to own an AR/AK might not have been in the position to until after 7/20? Maybe they've just recently come of age, or possibly their folks wouldn't allow them to have one in the house while they lived at home? I've no clue why but four of the younger guys at work have come to me and started taking about guns and getting their LTCs and have no idea what has happened. I've told them I know a few gun guys(nobody at work knows) and how they've been boned re: ARs/AKs, all but one said they're scrapping the idea due to the costs of entry. "We" just lost 75% of those potential newcomers who would have more than likely brought more into the fold. How's that a good thing?

I have no sympathy for people who overpay for shit. I overpaid myself quite a few times (mostly at gun dealers) many years ago before I knew better. I don't even resent the sellers for it (and never would) it's my own damned fault for not doing due dilligence! Why don't people take responsibility? This isn't rocket science. Also some of these guys knew they overpaid but didn't care anyways. They got what they wanted and they're happy.

Nobody is forcing anyone to pay shit prices. Not even MA .gov. There's nearly always a way around everything. MA is not some island in the pacific where only the good shit comes in strapped underneath a fishing boat under cover of darkness....

Maybe some people just don't care, either. A few extra hundred on a gun... yawn. I know some people who have less time to buy stuff than even I do, and it makes their life easier to just buy whatever it is rather than having to do legwork.

Back before the interwebs and the Googles if I wanted something I purchased it, I'm positive I've overpaid for things but it wasn't worth my time or energy find it cheaper.

Also, what if some other poor/dumb bastard overpaid for the thing he's selling? So you're saying he's an a**h*** because he's trying to recover the cash he has in something? lol.

My gripe is with profiteering, not sure how recouping cost falls into that.

And no, this is not like health insurance premiums, not at all...

In the sense there's only a limited amount of providers(health insurance companies/people selling rifles) and they set the market price.

This ain't like a guy in the middle of a desert with a $5000 bottle of water, either. So trying to moralize it that way is just absurd.

I guess I just tire of this "downtrodden MA gun owner" trope. It's more depressing
than the actual problem is.

What's depressing to me about this is folks seem to be more interested in their bank accounts than strengthening the community. Prior to 7/20 a young, inexperienced, low wage/skill worker could walk into a LGS and walk out with an entry level rifle, today it's buy a rifle or pay rent.

Doesn't matter because some guy will just flip brand new stuff all day long to the retards, regardless. I never really agreed with the "leaving stuff behind in MA" stuff anyways, its feel good garbage that is meaningless. Most of the big kid pants/skirt crew just buys whatever they want anyways. If I leave I'd only sell if
I needed the money, and even at that, only to friends...

-Mike

I've always been a proponent of leaving as much as I could behind with the hopes it would lead to more opportunity for those unable to leave for whatever reason. Once again though people(on the whole), as usual, disappoint greatly.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Again housing is a different issue entirely as folks can still purchase new homes elsewhere, try that at any LGS in Ma. with a new just off the truck AR/AK.

You keep illustrating why the two are the same, not different. Sure, someone can buy a new home in WBF if they cannot afford one n a "full" town like Wellesley, but that home might not be as convenient or desirable to them. The Wellesley house is an item in short supply that is not expanding, and priced accordingly.

Similarly, an AR15 represents the "convenient" gun (versatile, accurate, etc.) however there are substitute goods (Tavors, Bolt Actions) that serve the same purpose albiet not with the convenience or feature set of the AR15. You can think of the AR15 as the Wellesley house and the Tavor as the house in WBF.

The only difference is the finite non-expanding supply of Wellesley houses is a result of the force of nature (and maybe zoning), whereas the finite nature of the AR15 supply in MA is due to enemy edict.
----------------
As to flipping - My guns go to my friends when I die. No chance the widow Boudrie will get ripped off by some opportunistic bloodsucker. If any of them flip there new-found booty, I will be haunting them at 3AM.
----------------
Is selling a house worth considerably more than you paid profiteering? This is a simple yes or no question.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Christian,

I bought a couple of handguns for <$100 back in the mid-1970s, so according to you I should only be allowed to sell them for no more than double what I paid for them.

Example: I bought a carried but rarely fired nickel Colt Det. Spl from a fellow police officer for $85.00. They don't make them anymore, there were different series over the years, so available quantity is limited. I have seen prices in the $4-600 range . . . but I shouldn't be able to sell it for more than $170. Right?

I bought a used S&W 39-2 from a local gun shop, also probably <$100.00, so shouldn't be able to ask more than $200 for it. Oh yes, the safety (barrel that goes thru the slide) broke on it and S&W replaced it for ~$100, so since it was damaged, I probably shouldn't be able to sell it for more than $50.00 using your guidelines.

I could go on with other examples, keeping the discussion to guns only. You don't like it when people use the house analogy but cars can be the same way . . . there are only so many 1964/65 Mustangs out there and I guess nobody should charge more than $6K for them, right?

Who gets to set the prices and fine violators?

Bottom line is in a free market seller sets a price and buyers decide if it is worth it to them. If not, it doesn't sell or the price gets lowered. Works the same way on houses and used cars (my prior car was listed at ~$15K and I bought it for $9500, 4yo Civic).

 

[Len-2A Training]

Like Rob, when my Wife and I are gone, all "left over" guns/ammo/gear go to Comm2A to auction off and fund some more lawsuits against the Commiewealth! I sure as hell hope they get a lot more than double what I paid for them!!!

 

[Individualist]

A bit off topic from the OP but in the Commywealth if you are buying for yourself and not with the intent to resell then get an 80% for $50 and finish it. Buy a jig and host a build party to split the cost or see if you can borrow/rent one. Otherwise wait until a good deal comes your way and act fast, or be prepared to pay market rate.

 

[Individualist]

Christian,

I bought a couple of handguns for <$100 back in the mid-1970s, so according to you I should only be allowed to sell them for no more than double what I paid for them.
Who gets to set the prices and fine violators?

That’s correct Len. Maura is creating another “List” that tells people exactly what they can sell their approved, quasi-approved, or pre-f***ed firearms for. There are date adjusted, actuarial and feature tables so by using a slide rule you can calculate your allowable price, less deductions and fees. It also has an API to tie into your MA income tax under “other non reported income” just so that you are a completely ethical and legal seller in the eyes of our Overlords.

 

[namedpipes]

I set my price of $15k for each of my pre Maura lowers based on what I would be willing to pay for one, assuming I didn't have one and had a spare $15k kicking around. I'm taking a loss by including the stripped upper and the LPK!

I actually don't want to sell them, but at that price I would!

 

[DW357]

Tell your friends to buy one of these rifles. $950 and definitely not a low end AR:

WTS - MA Compliant, Fixed Magazine AR style Rifle - New Manufacture - $950

 

[Artie]

I have a pre-7/20 lower that I never planned on selling. Built it into a complete lower and it just sat in the safe. I have been looking for a nice SKS but those prices have skyrocketed and I am hesitant to spend $500-600 for something a couple years ago was $275-325. With ARs running in the $900-1500 price range,in MA, I wouldn't feel bad trading that overpriced complete lower for an overpriced SKS. I would feel bad selling it for $500-600 but with an entry AR upper running $250-400, someone could build out a nice entry rifle for under $1k, which appears to be better than the current MA going rate.

 

[slap shot]

I set my price of $15k for each of my pre Maura lowers based on what I would be willing to pay for one, assuming I didn't have one and had a spare $15k kicking around. I'm taking a loss by including the stripped upper and the LPK!

I actually don't want to sell them, but at that price I would!

You gouging! raping! immoral! anti- community POS! $15k?????

i'll sell for $12k, that's fair

 

[namedpipes]

Don't want to pay my price don't buy it!

Somebody will take it off my hands at that price