Is a gun built off an 80% lower worth more or less than a branded complete gun?

[StevieP]

complete factory guns are built to a certain level.

*I* built this gun better than that...

for example:

.308 AR built off 80% lower. DPMS pattern
DPMS 18" SASS (heavy, not 'bull' 1:10 twist, fluted)
Geissele SSA two-stage trigger
Griffin flash/comp
Troy rail
Magpul stock
Hogue grip
Nikon M-308 4-16x w/ BDC 800 reticle
Caldwell bipod
2 x 10-rd mags
Sub-MOA rifle all day every day.

Anyone have thoughts on what this would be worth as a total package? Thinking ~$1200 or so (have offered it to a close friend for less, but they haven't committed yet)

============

People have PMed me.

No it does not have a serial number.
No I do not live in MA any more
It WAS E-FA10'd when I built it and did live in MA (s/n "not applicable" or "none" -- I don't recall exactly)

============

People have said it is not legal to sell this gun.

If that's the case, I would like to see even a single cite showing a law where this is illegal. Leave MA out of it. Y'all are screwed there and this isn't relevant at all (other than about the question of 80% built vs manufactured complete gun)

 

[Compooky]

The big unanswered question is whether the lower finished by you is better than a factory one because that’s what you really need to convince potential buyers unless they’re really just buying it for parts.

I think you’re overvaluing the parts a bit too.

 

[Woodstone]

'tis worth as much as someone is willing to pay for it.

 

[SKumar]

 

[not new guy]

You drilled out a lower better than a factory would have? Nothing personal of course, but I’d take a factory built and assembled gun over one that some guy on the internet put together every time and without a second thought.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

You drilled out a lower better than a factory would have? Nothing personal of course, but I’d take a factory built and assembled gun over one that some guy on the internet put together every time and without a second thought.

It's only necessary to drill out 80% lowers. Far more common for builds to be based off of lowers that are already federally guns.

Rifle, or handguns it's the generally the same - no-name builds, no matter how good, do not maintain value as well as premium name brands (the later including guns by well respected and known smiths). Just compare what a Derr built 1911 would fetch in this area to an equally good gun built by someone no one ever heard of.

Ooops.....just noticed the title of the thread was 80% lowers

 

[Boghog1]

Tree fiddy

 

[slap shot]

Not illegal. It’s illegal to build for the purpose of selling iirc

 

[not new guy]

Does it need a serial number added if you’re going to sell it?

 

[bigben111435]

it is like a custom car, it is worth more to the right buyer, but to most buyers, it is a frankengun.
and in fifty years, the original unmolested factory gun will definitely be worth more.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Not illegal. It’s illegal to build for the purpose of selling iirc

It's more expansive than that. It's illegal to sell a personally build firearm by a non-07. Even if the gun is years old and you did not build it with the purpose of selling, it's still illegal to sell. A subtle but real difference.

 

[slap shot]

It's more expansive than that. It's illegal to sell a personally build firearm by a non-07. Even if the gun is years old and you did not build it with the purpose of selling, it's still illegal to sell. A subtle but real difference.

is that federal?

 

[Rob Boudrie]

is that federal?

Yup

 

[Snora]

complete factory guns are built to a certain level.

*I* built this gun better than that...

Sure sounds good. Can you prove that? Do you provide a warranty? Since the answer is obviously no, you're not going to get more money as a random builder than an established brand with a standard, proven combination and 3rd party reviews.

 

[EJFudd]

Is a gun built off an 80% lower worth more or less than a branded complete gun?​

I would say generally worth less. If I happened upon one and decided to buy it, it would most likely be for the premium parts... not for the completed 80% lower or for the gun to be used "as-is"... but I do know of folks who do an awfully clean & perfect 80% lower build.

 

[PappyM3]

It's more expansive than that. It's illegal to sell a personally build firearm by a non-07. Even if the gun is years old and you did not build it with the purpose of selling, it's still illegal to sell. A subtle but real difference.

Is that part of the recent frame&receiver rule? I could have sworn that before it was legal for an non-FFL individual to sell a homemade firearm as long as it wasn’t built with the intent to sell.

 

[cookiecutter]

It's more expansive than that. It's illegal to sell a personally build firearm by a non-07. Even if the gun is years old and you did not build it with the purpose of selling, it's still illegal to sell. A subtle but real difference.

I was also under the impression that this would be legal if a sale was not the purpose ... but I have been known to be mistaken. Can you reference the statute for us? That would be helpful. Thanks in advance!
CC

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I don't have the reference handy, but was just offering my understanding (not trying to prove a point). I think there is a difference between a "transfer" and a "sale", with the later being prohibited but not the former. If I find the cite I'll post it.

 

[Golddiggie]

From what I recall, the only legal way you could sell a completed 80% lower was IF you obtained a serial number for it (via aft). Even then it was only one per year. This is info from when 80% lowers were new to the market (about a decade ago now).

No way in hell would I buy a completed 80 without it having a sn on it (with proof it was legit). IMO it's not worth the potential pain you'd face from getting on the wrong end of things.

I'd pull the lpk out of the lower and sell everything else as a set. Let the person supply their own lower for the build.

Even IF the aft reversed that early decision, does ANYONE here have any confidence that they won't flip it and create instant felons out of people??

 

[Fixxah]

I will dispose of said lower for you. PM contact info. Thanks.

 

[whatluck]

sell it as a build kit on facebook marketplace for $3000

 

[bfm]

I don't have the reference handy, but was just offering my understanding (not trying to prove a point). I think there is a difference between a "transfer" and a "sale", with the later being prohibited but not the former. If I find the cite I'll post it.

Gun Control Act of 1968.

This is from a defense lawyer's page.

Gun Control Legislation and Homemade Guns​

The federal Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA) requires, among other things, that people "engaged in the business" of dealing firearms get a license from the federal government called a Federal Firearms License (FLL). The GCA makes it illegal for a person without an FLL to make a firearm for sale or distribution. In addition, the law requires firearms dealers to perform background checks on people who want to buy a gun and to maintain records of all gun sales. (18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(21)(C)(2023); 18 U.S.C § 922(t) (2023); 18 U.S.C. § 923 (2023).)

However, nothing in the GCA prohibits individuals from making guns for their own personal use. A person without an FLL may make a firearm for personal use without undergoing a background check, as long as the person isn't otherwise prohibited from possessing firearms. A homemade gun doesn't have to be registered unless state or local law requires registration. (18 U.S.C. § 922(d) (2023).

 

[cookiecutter]

Gun Control Act of 1968.

This is from a defense lawyer's page.

Gun Control Legislation and Homemade Guns​

The federal Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA) requires, among other things, that people "engaged in the business" of dealing firearms get a license from the federal government called a Federal Firearms License (FLL). The GCA makes it illegal for a person without an FLL to make a firearm for sale or distribution. In addition, the law requires firearms dealers to perform background checks on people who want to buy a gun and to maintain records of all gun sales. (18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(21)(C)(2023); 18 U.S.C § 922(t) (2023); 18 U.S.C. § 923 (2023).)

However, nothing in the GCA prohibits individuals from making guns for their own personal use. A person without an FLL may make a firearm for personal use without undergoing a background check, as long as the person isn't otherwise prohibited from possessing firearms. A homemade gun doesn't have to be registered unless state or local law requires registration. (18 U.S.C. § 922(d) (2023).

Yep ... clearly a person can't make a firearm for sale or distribution without a license and paying the excise tax on it. But this doesn't say you can't sell one.

I try to keep a list of legal references, but I can't find the one that says it needs a serial number to be transferred. I think that is also a requirement ... but I will admit to having a hard time keeping the state laws and the federal laws separate in my head and I have lived in CA where things were nuts, so that may have been a requirement there, but not federally. Personally, I can't think of a reason NOT to serialize and mark an 80% receiver ... in states that don't require that, they also don't require that you report said number and it just seems like it would keep people from asking questions when they say the rifle in use, even at a range.

 

[42!]

complete factory guns are built to a certain level.

*I* built this gun better than that...

for example:

.308 AR built off 80% lower. DPMS pattern
DPMS 18" SASS (heavy, not 'bull' 1:10 twist, fluted)
Geissele SSA two-stage trigger
Griffin flash/comp
Troy rail
Magpul stock
Hogue grip
Nikon M-308 4-16x w/ BDC 800 reticle
Caldwell bipod
2 x 10-rd mags
Sub-MOA rifle all day every day.

Anyone have thoughts on what this would be worth as a total package? Thinking ~$1200 or so (have offered it to a close friend for less, but they haven't committed yet)

============

People have PMed me.

No it does not have a serial number.
No I do not live in MA any more
It WAS E-FA10'd when I built it and did live in MA (s/n "not applicable" or "none" -- I don't recall exactly)

============

People have said it is not legal to sell this gun.

If that's the case, I would like to see even a single cite showing a law where this is illegal. Leave MA out of it. Y'all are screwed there and this isn't relevant at all (other than about the question of 80% built vs manufactured complete gun)

It doesn't matter if 6you lower is better than a factory lower, it matters what you can convince a buyer of. Good liuck convincing a buyer that your home made lower is better.
And you built the perfect gun for you. But your perfect gun isn't likely to be someone else's perfect gun.
It's just like building hot-rods, what you like isn't what everyone likes, you'll never get all you money out of it.

And finally, NEVER sell a gun. I've done that a long time go and regretted it ever since. I'll never sell another... except those 2 Remington 1911s someday I get around to selling those.

 

[Rick O'Shea]

Worth less

 

[bfm]

Yep ... clearly a person can't make a firearm for sale or distribution without a license and paying the excise tax on it. But this doesn't say you can't sell one.

This is where it gets fun, given that they are selling it, how do you prove it wasn't made for sale or distribution?

Most of the cases that I have seen in the news, when someone is charged with this, the person was regularly making and selling firearms, but there is nothing that says you must make and sell more than one to be guilty.

 

[StevieP]

Yeah, I built this well over ten years ago. Built it, stored in a gun safe for a long time, and am selling it essentially at a loss now, because that was always my plan.

Muah Ha Ha!! I've got .gov right where I want them!


JK. thanks for the feedback.

I pretty much assumed a factory gun would hold more value. Just wasn't sure if there was a particular market for non-serialized guns where someone might see value in it & staying off .gov radar for some reason.

 

[GunCat]

... clearly a person can't make a firearm for sale .... But this doesn't say you can't sell one.

I had to re-read this too many times.

 

[CrackPot]

It's more expansive than that. It's illegal to sell a personally build firearm by a non-07. Even if the gun is years old and you did not build it with the purpose of selling, it's still illegal to sell. A subtle but real difference.

Your understanding is common but incorrect.

Federal law:

a) it is lawful to build a firearm for personal use without a license (07 FFL)
b) it is lawful to sell any firearm you own to anyone who is not a prohibited person and is a resident of your state and you are both present in your state. Or to sell to any licensee (selling to a licensee trips some nice language around marking of a PMF since ~august 2022)

What is illegal is building a firearm w/o a license with the INTENT of selling it. Its like the straw purchase statue. INTENT matters.

Now intent is an interesting thing. If you talk to the ATF about it they will say "sure, sell one, not a problem. But if you sell more than one we are going to have a chat". Or words to that effect. Anyone can build something and later decide they dont want it. But if its a pattern, the ATF will take the position you need an 07 FFL. It's a manufacturing of firearms w/o a license charge where your affirmative defense is you built it for personal use. But since you have now sold multiple, your defense tends to fall apart. That is why they say "sure, sell one". Hard to prove intent unless you have other evidence like emails, texts, etc.


PMF (privately made firearms) got a LOT of clarification with regulation updates back in late 2022. These triggered a bunch of requirements on FFLs such that if I log one in, I HAVE to mark it with a serial number of the format RDSKEY-unique. RDS Key is your first 3 and last 5 of your FFL number. Unique is unique to you. The gun is now 100% traceable because any gun with a RDSKEY-unique serial you can now start with the FFL who marked it for your trace as opposed to starting typically with the manufacturer (which is undoable with "ghost guns"). So anything a FFL touches is no longer Casper but clearly traceable.

The new rule making its way through comment period right now would require anyone selling any gun at a profit to have a FFL. I dont see how this one survives lawsuits given what USC actually says, but its what we expect from the Biden ATF. This of course would impact PMFs being sold based on profit.

Yep ... clearly a person can't make a firearm for sale or distribution without a license and paying the excise tax on it. But this doesn't say you can't sell one.

I try to keep a list of legal references, but I can't find the one that says it needs a serial number to be transferred. I think that is also a requirement ... but I will admit to having a hard time keeping the state laws and the federal laws separate in my head and I have lived in CA where things were nuts, so that may have been a requirement there, but not federally. Personally, I can't think of a reason NOT to serialize and mark an 80% receiver ... in states that don't require that, they also don't require that you report said number and it just seems like it would keep people from asking questions when they say the rifle in use, even at a range.

Nothing in federal law or current MA law requires a gun to have a serial number to be transferred/sold privately. It is illegal to REMOVE a serial number or otherwise deface a gun of its markings, but a gun lawfully made without one does not need one added, FOR A PRIVATE SALE. If the gun is a PMF being sold/transferred by a FFL, then the FFL must mark it (see above) which is new as of ~August 2022.