prepping to survive. Bugging in VS bugging out

[Silverguns6]

About 1 year ago I decided that when SHTF I would want to have a group of people and not just my fiance and myself. I got 3 like-minded friends to get onboard with starting a "doomsday group." Lets face it, the economy sucks, money doesn't grow on trees and not everyone is in a situation where they can afford an RV, vessel, large SUV, Sherman Tank or an earth roamer. If you are a prepper-survivalist, and you are in it for the long haul, form a group. There is no I in Team and you will not be able to efficently survive if you Bug Out alone. Unless you are a skilled outdoorsman who can live off the land, utilize what is around you, know your surroundings and what not, technology, gear and tools are useless once they break, wear down or run out of fuel.
Bugging in VS Bugging out:

-Weigh your personal and financial options.
If you are planning on leaving your home and relocation to a BOL, do you have adequate means to move you and all your needed gear quickly, covertly and safely? If you are going to buy an RV that runs on Gasoline, can you afford gas now and could you afford gas if the price per gallon goes up exponentially when SHTF? If you are bugging out on your vessel and plan on driving to the dock, board the boat and set sail offshore, what do you do with your vehicle now? What if when you come back to port, your vehicle is gone or stripped of parts and the engine?
Would you rather spend $50,000 on a "doomsday vehicle" or $50,000 on food, supplies, gear, etc?

-Understand your location and climate.
We all (on this forum) live in or around New England. 4 seasons mean prepping for spring, summer, autum and winter. Rain, snow, ice, mud, Nor'easters, blizzards, tropical storms..Well New England doesn't have stable, consistant weather patterns. Can you pack enough gear in your BOV (bug out vehicle) for 1 year(minimum) of New England weather? Can your vehicle handle 5" of rain on the road durring a tropical storm AND 3'-6' of snow on an unplowed road durring/after a blizzard? Can your BOL handle 90 degree weather and -10 degree weather? Can you hike in 13" of snow as well as you can hike on a clear trail? Do you have snow skis, bikes, scooters, ATVs, etc all in your BOL or BOV?

Bugging in:
-No need for a BOV, but you can buy a used older F-150 (parts galore everywhere you look around). fortify it, lift it, etc and then still have money for a variety of other gear.

Bugging in means when SHTF you stay put.
You will need to:
-Have alternative source of power
-supplies to fortify your home and property as a defensive/offensive measure.
-way to collect water (route gutters to large barrels)
-way to produce heat (wood burning stove)
Bugging in allows you to have all your gear, food and whatnot stored and available at all times. When SHTF and if you plan on bugging out, I guaruntee you will end up thinking
"Well do I really need to take that with me too or can I afford to leave it behind?"
You already will have beds set up, all your clothes, shelter, plumbing, electrical wiring is already established and secure. You already know your area well, you know where stores are and where good fishing/hunting is. Having one Bug Out location instead of two will make it much easier when SHTF. If you have a basement, you can build it up into a fallout shelter and you can use it as a workshop and more storage. If you have a garage you can keep your vehicles hidden and have a workshop and storage. If you have a well, I am sure there is a way to manually pump water with it. You can have a larger generator in your home as well as fixed solar pannels on your roof and it wouldn't look "off" to your neighbors. you already live there comfortably now all you would need to really worry about when SHTF is making your home look "normal" but like a fortress. Not just boarded up windows but defensive measures. nails in the welcome mat, electrified chicken wire fence are two that come to mind If you live near a wooded area you have firewood and squirrels and birds hang around trees. In CT we have Deer, Yotes, turkey, bass, trout, squirrel, birds, Sasquatch..well I'm just kidding ther..or am I 0_o.

I've spent many days and hours weighing the options of myself and my group as well as training with my group in both Bugging out and bugging in scenarios. All of what you just read is my personal thoughts, opinions and my knowledge on the subject. I hope you all found it useful or worth the read.
Thanks,
Dave

 

[Palladin]

Have you been watching "Doomsday Preppers" ?

 

[Silverguns6]

Have you been watching "Doomsday Preppers" ?

I haven't watched it in about 2 years and even then I only watched it when nothing else was on TV.

 

[MisterHappy]

Think all you want.

Plan all you want.

Practice is what needs to be emphasized.

We practice at the range, but how many people practice getting the genny up and running when it's bad weather? You may have a wood stove, but how much wood do you use (I'm about 3 cords, September - March as supplemental heat, only) in a year?

If you need backup lighting, where do you put them for max yield and safety.

Irene was a "good" storm - we were without power Sunday AM - Wed 9:00PM, and were more or less fine. As were most of the neighbors. But that was summer. Winter would be another thing, though. We have backup heat, the neighbors don't.....

 

[Silverguns6]

Think all you want.

Plan all you want.

Practice is what needs to be emphasized.

We practice at the range, but how many people practice getting the genny up and running when it's bad weather? You may have a wood stove, but how much wood do you use (I'm about 3 cords, September - March as supplemental heat, only) in a year?

If you need backup lighting, where do you put them for max yield and safety.

Irene was a "good" storm - we were without power Sunday AM - Wed 9:00PM, and were more or less fine. As were most of the neighbors. But that was summer. Winter would be another thing, though. We have backup heat, the neighbors don't.....

I never said I didn't practice. When it comes to firearms, range time is all I really get but other than that, my group has practiced everything for our plan that needs practicing. Medical drills to boarding up and securing all the windows in 10 minutes, that kind of practicing. Also, I would call them out of nowhere on a saturday or whenever and give them our "go" word for when we need to assemble and bug in and they have 1 hour to pack their gear up in their cars, drive to my home and get their gear inside my house. We also practice using our gear and getting familiar with it. Fire and camp craft, field stripping and DCOA our firearms. Doing alot with the proper ways to use item X and Y, properly cleaning and preparing game meat, and what not.

Irene put my parents house in Woodbridge CT without power for 6 days. My grandparents live with them and have medical issues and needs (both are in their 90s). I worked 59 hours in a row durring that storm. Responded to powerline fire after car accident after electrical house fire.
My parents had flashlights...but..No extra batteries....only one case of spring water, some candles and that was it. Food wise, everything parishable parished within 3 days or so after the refrigerator and freezers warmed up. The driveway had a huge tree down on it and no chainsaw to cut it up and move it. Luckily my friends dad was able to do it. Imagine if they were stuck there without food or water for 10 days and no way to drive anywhere or call for help. Luckly, they have cell phones and friends so that hopefully would not be the case.

 

[Kevin_NH]

Ready to stand watch?

Without sufficient people in your group to maintain a 24x7 watch, neither In nor Out are good options. That means a minimum of 6 adults.

 

[Silverguns6]

Without sufficient people in your group to maintain a 24x7 watch, neither In nor Out are good options. That means a minimum of 6 adults.

Good point.
Do you think a 12 person group is sufficent though?

 

[Kevin_NH]

Good point. Do you think a 12 person group is sufficent though?

It's a big enough team for football. Sufficient people survive a harsh winter, not sufficient to rebuild society from scratch on your own.

 

[TonyDedo]

If you're actually serious about real, long term survival in a true TEOTWAWKI scenario, than your focus needs to be on complete self sufficiency, and not what kind of gear you can buy.

As soon as the refineries stop producing fuel, ANY kind of vehicle is going to be useless in a matter of months.

You can stock pile as much food and water as you like in your basement, but even the most well funded prep won't last a meaningful amount of time. Stockpiling food is a short term prep.

And if you think there's enough wild life wandering the back woods of Connecticut to sustain you (not to mention your 3.5 million neighbors), you're sorely mistaken. As it is there's barely enough game to satisfy recreational hunters, let alone an entire region of starving people.

And no matter how many silly booby traps you can come up with, the sheer number of people surrounding you make you completely vulnerable in the long run.

The point is, if you're actually serious about long term, TEOTWAWKI survival, than your focus should be creating an isolated, sustainable, long term ecosystem where you could survive completely self sufficient. You don't stock pile long term storage food, you buy seeds and livestock. You don't buy jugs of water, you dig a well. And you don't build booby traps, you find a geographically isolated space and begin to prepare the land. And you do this all ahead of time, because when SHTF, you can't snap your fingers and have a functioning farm - it takes several years to get the yield up to sustainable levels, not to mention the learning curve.

For most people, this is simply not practical. I enjoy my urban/suburban existence, and I'm not willing to sacrifice it all by moving to a farm in fly over country on the off chance that the world might end.

I prep for the disaster scenarios that are practical for me to prepare for. I'm ready for bad weather, floods and fires, natural and man made disasters, economic, social and political upheaval, temporary suspension of utilities and public services, disability and death. I'm prepared for any plausible scenario that we've seen play out our society in my lifetime.

And I don't fool myself into thinking I'm prepared for anything beyond that. I understand that, if the world were to end on Monday, I would be at a severe disadvantage, and probably wouldn't make it.

And I'm okay with that. I'm okay because I'm not willing to sacrifice my lifestyle and my happiness in order to prepare for something that will more than likely never happen. Some may think I'm a fool, and that's okay, because I'm a happy fool. Because if you let them take your happiness, you let the terrorists win...

 

[Silverguns6]

Tony, thats a good point as well and some of that stuff I didn't think of. I also like your outlook on TEOTWAWKI scenarios and what not. I need to find the book I have that has a US gov't document on how to make your vehicle run off of a woodburning fire. It was a document released durring the cold war or something about if there was a huge petrolium shortage. I have a flash drive with many many self reliance documents and guides and I also printed all of them out on paper.
Personally and in my group, we aren't preparing for the earth to implode or anything "book if eli" like. Events like civil chaos, heavy civil unrest that would last for 6-15 months, and ofcourse weather and man made disasters. I have several family members who are medical professionals who when something such as a catastrophie which would make treatment at hospitals impossible. They will join my group. If a short or long term disaster occured and it demolished houses and structures, we can count on 20 relatives of a few of my group members who have access to construction equiptment and know 10 people who are contractors with employees. Recently my group started thinking more about a nuclear attack from N. Korea, Russia or Iran. A NBC attack scenario is one of our current focuses. And not just a ICBM, a dirt bomb being set off or anything. Several of my members are in New Haven County CT, I know that NYC is a prime target for terrorism, they aren't within immediate range of a 10KT nuclear blast if it was detonated in NYC, but I always worried about something happening at New Haven Harbor where large tankers dock.

Terrorists will only win if we let them. Last time I checked, we wont let them win.

 

[Rider]

Everything Tony says is correct, plus, you have to have absolute trust in every single person on your team, and everyone that they bring along. Not only trust they won't sell you out if things get tough, but trust that no one will melt down and do something stupid. I don't know that many people who I can trust completely and know/think could handle the scenario you're talking about.

You also have to keep in mind that if you are bugging in at a location that is currently populated, it's going to be pretty obvious that you are there and have supplies. Obvious to - everyone. I assume you want a nice, peaceful existence and don't want to live in a shooting gallery, so you are going to have to deal with the reality of frequent interactions with others, whether you want them or not. If people are desperate, they aren't going to go away just because you point a gun at them and say leave. Not if you are the only person with food and they have no place else to go.

Finally, OpSec says don't post too many details about your preps on the Internet.

 

[garandman]

I'm always amazed that people would choose to leave their home, friends and resources behind unless they absolutely had to.

 

[Kevin_NH]

...or as we call it in nowhere New Hampshire, "February".

I'm always amazed that people would choose to leave their home, friends and resources behind unless they absolutely had to.

If you live in a densely populated urban area, you'll absolutely have to make a decision about a week after the utilities goes out and the trucks stop showing up at the grocery store. Do you stay and watch your neighbors starve? Or bug out?

We practice at the range, but how many people practice getting the genny up and running when it's bad weather? You may have a wood stove, but how much wood do you use (I'm about 3 cords, September - March as supplemental heat, only) in a year?

Come live here NH, and you'll be forced to practice getting the generator up and running when it's bad weather; I've only once had the power go out on a nice sunny day (Truck ran into a pole a few miles up the road).

I prep for the disaster scenarios that are practical for me to prepare for. I'm ready for bad weather, floods and fires, natural and man made disasters, economic, social and political upheaval, temporary suspension of utilities and public services, disability and death. I'm prepared for any plausible scenario that we've seen play out our society in my lifetime. And I don't fool myself into thinking I'm prepared for anything beyond that. I understand that, if the world were to end on Monday, I would be at a severe disadvantage, and probably wouldn't make it.

You underestimate yourself. If you prep for the most likely disasters, then if TEOTWAWKI comes Monday, you'll make it... for the first three weeks (about 2 weeks longer than your neighbors).

 

[vipprimo]

The other thing is people turn quick. Look around you. All those people aren't prepping. Once they run out they're now scavengers and you're a target.

Also remember that if you don't plan right your team can turn quick once the going gets tough. People do crazy things once survival is on the line.

I've looked at this survival stuff and I think most of the time the mindset and personality of the person is inevitably what needs to be overcome. Most people plan like they plan for normal life and aren't thinking like people who are now living off the land.

If the end really comes the weekend warriors are only delaying the inevitable.

 

[TonyDedo]

If you live in a densely populated urban area, you'll absolutely have to make a decision about a week after the utilities goes out and the trucks stop showing up at the grocery store. Do you stay and watch your neighbors starve? Or bug out?

Bug out to where? Most people don't have a well stocked cabin waiting for them in the woods. 99 times out of 100, a bug out is going to result in an uncomfortable night in a FEMA shelter set up in some high school gymnasium, or if you're lucky a friend's couch or hotel stay outside the affected area. Meanwhile your home, your preps and all your belongings are undefended and vulnerable.

In my opinion, bugging out, and the requisite Bug Out Bag is hands down the most overrated prep discussed here and elsewhere. Everyone talks about their Bug Out Bag as if it's the end-all, be-all of prepping. There's this pervasive belief that once SHTF you can grab your camping gear and tromp into the woods, living off the land, toasting marshmallows and singing songs around the camp fire.

In reality, bugging out should be an absolute last priority, only when the safety and habitability of your home is compromised. And at that point in time, you don't have a week to think about it, you need to run into the house, grab your bag, and get out before the house burns down, washes away or is consumed by whatever disaster is pending.

And when you do build a Bug Out Bag, the most important addition to the bag is a PLAN, and when you pack the rest of the bag, you should pack to the PLAN, not based on a list off the internet.

You underestimate yourself. If you prep for the most likely disasters, then if TEOTWAWKI comes Monday, you'll make it... for the first three weeks (about 2 weeks longer than your neighbors).

Meh, I figure I have a month, more or less depending on access to water and internet porn...

 

[fivepak]

I can't think of a TEOTWAWKI event that after a period of a few years things won't start getting back to normal. There isn't a time in history to prove otherwise. While having a BOL and having the ability to live completely self sufficient is a good idea, I think a BOL and long term food storage should suffice. Other than total nuclear war or alien invasion I can't think of anything that would last beyond a few years.
I live in Nashua outside the center of town. I do wonder if bugging in for most events would be the most prudent. In the event of total economic collapse I would load up the 32' travel trailer and take the family north to a friends rural property.
The key to bugging out isn't having a perfect bug out bag. It's watching for the signs an bugging out before the hordes come to the same conclusion. I the event of economic collapse, which is the scenario I see as most likely, I'd be watching the larger cities for signs of anarchy. When places like Boston and NYC go tits up its time to leave Nashua.

 

[Contramnky]

10KT? We'd be so lucky to have suck a small nuke go off. If there was a nuclear payload detonated or delivered in or above NY, we'd likely be looking at the megaton range from an ICBM delivery system.

 

[Rider]

@ Tony

It's always been my impression that the BoB is so popular because the most likely event other than losing power in a hurricane or snowstorm is one where it isn't safe to stay at your house. You have to bug out, so you want enough supplies to get you through a few days wherever, without undue discomfort. It is affordable for most people, covers many scenarios, and is fairly easy to put one together.

Sure, many people go off the rails with the apocalypse fantasy, but fundamentally, the BoB is to give you what you need if, say, an earthquake, wildfire, or tsunami comes ripping towards your house - or, in the nuclear case, it won't be safe to return to your house for approximately 10,000 years.

 

[derektrance]

I keep a 72 hour bag, but the plan is definitely bug in and here's why.
There are some things you can set up right now at your home that you cannot move that would give you quite an advantage and it can be in small steps.

Get a 72 hour bag up and going. Start food storage (canning/dehydrating)
Get some chickens to start and learn about them, how to take care of them, breed them.
Maybe move to a few goats or pigs.
Build a garden, start growing food, Heriloom varieties, learn how to replant seeds year after year.
Maybe plant some nut trees or fruit trees (Avoid walnuts as they can cause issues with other trees and plants near them)
Have a well put in, make sure you request a manual pump as well as electric.
Buy a generator, slowly make the move to solar.
Get a wood stove. Try cooking on it (it is not as easy as a regular stove....)

Make sure you practice your defense. Take a look at your home, where is a breach most likely to be? can you cover the whole thing from inside? Is there a plan to block windows and such? Did you remove all the 1 inch screws in your door frames and replace them with 3 inch? Now it may take 2 kicks to get the door open, another second for you to be ready.

And after all that prep, you're not going to want to get up and go, you'll have everything you need. Food, water, heat, shelter.

I think what most people look at is getting MORE self sufficient. It's not perfect, 4 heavily armed folks could probably make quite a mess of your plans.

If you have 12 folks coming, best make sure they have places to sleep, and also look at sanitation. A HUGE problem most people don't think about is trash. I don't know about you, but I put out 2-4 bags a week. Going to have to burn it or bury it.

If you have a Septic, probably should look into what needs to be done to service it as it will fill up eventually and you don't really want to get to that point. Know how to build an outhouse?
Any of your 12 have kids? do they need formula? Diapers? That was stuff that came into my plans unexpected when I had kids. Know how to fold a cloth diaper? lol...takes a bit of practice...

So while I'm sure it's great to watch the walking dead as they all zip along in an RV, you're really going to want some place to get some permanant things in place such as food and water.

 

[derektrance]

@ Tony

It's always been my impression that the BoB is so popular because the most likely event other than losing power in a hurricane or snowstorm is one where it isn't safe to stay at your house. You have to bug out, so you want enough supplies to get you through a few days wherever, without undue discomfort. It is affordable for most people, covers many scenarios, and is fairly easy to put one together.

Sure, many people go off the rails with the apocalypse fantasy, but fundamentally, the BoB is to give you what you need if, say, an earthquake, wildfire, or tsunami comes ripping towards your house - or, in the nuclear case, it won't be safe to return to your house for approximately 10,000 years.

Technically, if your house is still standing, you can return in 72 hours as most fallout will be down by then. Granted you'll have to dig down about 3 inches to grow anything and they'll be quite a lot of other things to do. But now begs the question, would it have been better if you stayed? You probably have enough food and water for a bit, surely more than you could have on your back. I know in my own house barring anythign drastic, I have enough food for a few months. I sure wouldn't want to take the chance with my bob to come back in 72 hours and see that looters had taken everything I had prepared....

 

[fivepak]

10KT? We'd be so lucky to have suck a small nuke go off. If there was a nuclear payload detonated or delivered in or above NY, we'd likely be looking at the megaton range from an ICBM delivery system.

I'm pretty sure both sides did away with their megaton bombs. Most of the ICBMs are at the largest 750 kiloton. Still bad enough to ruin your day and most everyone around you. I know I'm safe, because I've banned nukes on my property.

 

[OCB]

I was talking with my wife about how we would handle a situation that resulted in a general breakdown of 'normal' society. We live in such a densely populated area that I doubt bugging-in for any length of time is realistic. The layout of our apartment is such that it would be relatively straightforward to defend...except against fire.

 

[alphawolf]

Im bugging IN and then when I run out of supplies, the neighbors are in for it.

 

[TonyDedo]

We live in such a densely populated area that I doubt bugging-in for any length of time is realistic.

I hear this over and over again, and I can't figure it out. Where do you think you're going to go??? Is there some magical wilderness cornucopia that's better supplied and will better protect you from the population and the elements?

Even the most isolated land in New England is going to be easily accessible by the 10m people in the region. And New England isn't known for having particularly habitable or productive land. You have to really travel to find a place worth bugging out to, at a time when travel is going to be difficult and dangerous, if not downright impossible. And even if you found such land, it's not going to be habitable or productive overnight - it takes time and resources, which you're not going to have.

I think the point being, if you're planning to bug out, long term, then the first step is finding and preparing a place to bug out to.

 

[Kevin_NH]

Ignoring the unlikely event of complete and irrecoverable collapse of the entire nation, the issue with "a densely populated area" is surviving for more than a week or two, once people around you realize one family has food, water and power and they are hungry in the dark. Wouldn't it be better for an apartment dweller to "bug out" in advance of complete breakdown of civility, while travel is still possible, go stay with friends in a more rural area? (no, that's not an invitation) Alternative is to try to wait things out "in place" and let yourself get trapped in the apartment building as conditions get progressively worse.

Consider the various hurricane events. Most apartment dwellers had advance warning of the coming storm, and the opportunity to "bug out" to a planned location further inland. After the storm, parts of NJ went weeks without power and months without clean tap water.

Even the most isolated land in New England is going to be easily accessible by the 10m people in the region. And New England isn't known for having particularly habitable or productive land. You have to really travel to find a place worth bugging out to, at a time when travel is going to be difficult and dangerous, if not downright impossible. And even if you found such land, it's not going to be habitable or productive overnight - it takes time and resources, which you're not going to have.

The least likely scenarios are the ones where you'd need to be self-sufficient for multiple years. As Silverguns6 said "Personally and in my group, we aren't preparing for the earth to implode or anything "book if eli" like. Events like civil chaos, heavy civil unrest that would last for 6-15 months, and of course weather and man made disasters. ".

I might not have a hundred acres to hide out in, but in my part of semi-rural S.NH I know my neighbors are going to be self-sufficient for at least a couple of weeks, and each household has at least a pistol to slow down the marauding hordes fleeing out of Manchester.

 

[fivepak]

Even the most isolated land in New England is going to be easily accessible by the 10m people in the region.

I think the point being, if you're planning to bug out, long term, then the first step is finding and preparing a place to bug out to.

I don't think most of the city dwellers will head for the mountains. To a true city dweller the suburbs will seem a lot safer than staying put. I think a lot of city dwellers would be scared shitless by the thought of living off the grid in the wilderness.

 

[Rider]

I might not have a hundred acres to hide out in, but in my part of semi-rural S.NH I know my neighbors are going to be self-sufficient for at least a couple of weeks, and each household has at least a pistol to slow down the marauding hordes fleeing out of Manchester.

LOL - Manchester hordes. That is a city of what, 60,000?

Your point is valid, though. The benefit of bugging out to NH or someplace rural isn't simply the expectation that you will insta-farm, but that a) there is much more land per person on which to live, hence higher productive land and yield per person, and more importantly, when 'the horde' comes, it mostly runs out of gas and blocks the highways, then tries to walk, ride, or whatever and just doesn't make it that far.

If you're living near the city, say Wellesley, MA, you are well within walking distance of a few million people who know you are rich and there. You are along all major thoroughfares and will be under siege. Go another 30 miles to Bolton or Stow, where fewer people know the area, and it's harder to get to, and you are looking at a much more localized issue. Go 75 miles north from there, and you have far fewer people who even know the area or how to get there, especially without a vehicle that has a GPS in it.

I don't have all the answers, but if there is anything we learned from Katrina, Sandy, and similar disasters, it's that the government will not be able to help you on the short term and that the further you are from population centers, the better off you are.

Anyone planning to go to their nearest FEMA shelter should go back and re-read all the Superdome stories.

ETA: think about an area like the Lakes region of NY. Yes, it is easily accessible by millions within 6-8 hours driving. But once the first breakdowns occur, that flow stops, leaving most people hundreds of miles and three major cities away from their destination. If you actually get there, sure, you need a place to stay, but it's unlikely that most of the people headed there will make it.

So yes, you want to have a place to go, but long term, you are going to have many more people issues bugging in in a city location than a more rural/unknown location.

 

[Silverguns6]

The other thing is people turn quick. Look around you. All those people aren't prepping. Once they run out they're now scavengers and you're a target.

Also remember that if you don't plan right your team can turn quick once the going gets tough. People do crazy things once survival is on the line.

I've looked at this survival stuff and I think most of the time the mindset and personality of the person is inevitably what needs to be overcome. Most people plan like they plan for normal life and aren't thinking like people who are now living off the land.

If the end really comes the weekend warriors are only delaying the inevitable.

+1
When SHTF, whatever the EOTWAWKI may be, a group-member who is not mentally prepared can just be something else to worry about. I have many friends who I can trust and not worry about them damaging my process and organization. Are they all 100% mentally able to live and operate in such an "alternative lifestyle" as I am? No, only 2 are and those are the only 2 who I will call first when shtf.

A weekend warrior is a good term. How many people do you know who are like "oh ya man, I would love an apocolypse. Kill zombies doooddee!! bad a**." Sure some elements of being prepare sound fun and bad a**....Will it be all fun and games, cupcakes and rainbows? Nope. I have friends like that, I think they are useless and they just want a zombie apocolypse because they watch the Walking Dead and their daddy owns a crossbow.
When I was younger, (about 17) I watched the original Red Dawn. I thought it was an awesome movie. I recall thinking about helping fight communist invaders would be fun and kick a**. Now, after learning more and becoming more knowledgable, realistic and practical, something like that scares the heck out of me. My group talked about what if something like that happened. Would we fight along side our enlisted soldiers or bug in and preserve our group?

 

[Silverguns6]

I don't think most of the city dwellers will head for the mountains. To a true city dweller the suburbs will seem a lot safer than staying put. I think a lot of city dwellers would be scared shitless by the thought of living off the grid in the wilderness.

Also, lets say you are the "scavenger", looking for food gear and supplies. Would you want to go door to door in a town like Torrington or a city like Hartford, seeing if there are people inside or would you look for a secluded cabin or RV in the woods? Whats less time consuming? Spend 9-12 hours searching through 250-400 apartments and homes around you hoping that there is anything useful, or would you spend a few hours hiking towards what appears to be smoke billowing from a chimney off in the distance?
City dwellers or anyone who isn't prepared at all wont know what to do at all. They will panic and not know how to manage their situation.
Sucks for them, not for me!

 

[Silverguns6]

Im bugging IN and then when I run out of supplies, the neighbors are in for it.

But what if your neighbors fled and left little behind? How far are you willing to travel on foot to obtain supplies?
Heres a scenario for everyone here:
a miltary state of emergency after an event of total civil chaos. many civilians and personnell dead in the streets. Vehicles, Gear and supplies litter the streets. Buildings burn, skys are dark yaddi yaddi yada. Would you leave the security of your home to collect items from streets like firearms, ammo, clothing/footwear, and any gear you could locate?
I don't think everyone here can operate an Abrams tank but if there was a Humvee just parked 100' from your door, would you go get it?

I can't afford everything I need and I am not going to rob a bank for money (unless the bank was abandoned.....) my position on it is that when SHTF and there is no law enforcement order, would you go take whatever you could find and use? I think of taking gear, money, firearms etc from abandoned banks, the streets, etc falls into the "I can use it more than you can/I need this more than they do."

I am not saying that SHTF is an excuse to steal an M4 or loot a safety deposit box, but in a complete survival situation, wouldn't an extra firearm and some bartering items do you good?

People here keep mentioning bugging in a densely populated area. What classifies a densely populated area? over 10,000 people? Where I live(my town), pop is less than 5,000 and 9/10 households are prepared for basic disasters like blizzards, hurricanes etc. I know (from the flags people fly and the bumperstickers they have) that there are few "preppers." But then again, thats not at all accurate.
I am surrounded by woods with many state camp sites and recreational areas. My town is small but near more populated cities. I would guess that within a 50mi radius, there are about 100,000-350,000 people.

-Dave