Questions on defense v. over penetration

[ridleyman]

What are your thoughts on carrying a big bore that may have a problem with over penetration? Even a 9mm FMJ could be trouble in a house or crowded area (eg while shopping), let alone a .45, .357, etc.

Does this factor mitigate what you're likely to carry or have for a home defense gun? I generally carry a .380 or 9 mm w/defensive ammo that's likely to stop an aggressor, but not over penetrate. At home I have been using a 1911A1 w/230 grain hardball, but am now reconsidering because of kids and close neighbors. My rationale has been that at home, any aggressor would have to come up from the ground floor, and everyone sleeps upstairs. But if I can't get to them before they get upstairs, then I would worry about over penetrating bedroom walls. Perhaps the logical answer is that I should just stick to the 9 mm, although I even wonder about the high velocity ammo whizzing through someone.

Thoughts?

 

[pastera]

If you hit your target with a highly expanding round then collateral damage isn't much of an issue.

 

[FJM25]

Just picked up a Mossberg 590A1 - same scenario as OP (at home, any aggressor would have to come up from the ground floor, and everyone sleeps upstairs) - use slug, buckshot (000, 00, 4) or bird shot?

 

[M1911]

What are your thoughts on carrying a big bore that may have a problem with over penetration? Even a 9mm FMJ could be trouble in a house or crowded area (eg while shopping), let alone a .45, .357, etc.

You seem to be all over the place. What exactly are you asking? Why are you throwing FMJ into the mix? Why would you even consider carrying FMJ when JHP is far better from a defensive perspective?

oes this factor mitigate what you're likely to carry or have for a home defense gun? I generally carry a .380 or 9 mm w/defensive ammo that's likely to stop an aggressor, but not over penetrate. At home I have been using a 1911A1 w/230 grain hardball, but am now reconsidering because of kids and close neighbors.

Why would you use a 1911 with FMJ? If your 1911 won't feed quality JHP reliably, then get it fixed. I carried a 1911 for years. My 1911s used for defensive purposes were always fed with JHP. Most recently I've settled on Federal HST, but there are plenty of high quality JHP designs.

What's even more of a concern to me is whether your 3 different carry guns have similar operating characteristics. If not, then you might want to start reconsiderations right there, long before getting into an overpenetration argument.

My rationale has been that at home, any aggressor would have to come up from the ground floor, and everyone sleeps upstairs. But if I can't get to them before they get upstairs, then I would worry about over penetrating bedroom walls. Perhaps the logical answer is that I should just stick to the 9 mm, although I even wonder about the high velocity ammo whizzing through someone.

Thoughts?

Look at some gel tests. Bullet design is very, very important in determining penetration, not caliber.

 

[kalash]

I don't understand why you wouldn't just use a good JHP round for everything defensive.

Just picked up a Mossberg 590A1 - same scenario as OP (at home, any aggressor would have to come up from the ground floor, and everyone sleeps upstairs) - use slug, buckshot (000, 00, 4) or bird shot?

Easy - Federal Flight Control 00 buck. Don't overthink it. I messed around with various types of buckshot until I patterned the Federal shells, the performance isn't even in the same galaxy as everything else.

 

[jkelly1229]

I like a 25mm depleted uranium penetrator for home d .. yes the neighbors are a little worried... but there's no piece of mind like havig the turret from an mrap at the top of your stairs

 

[walter62]

Wallpaper the downstairs w/ Nomex and use Dragon's Breath 12ga rounds.

 

[Amputee Marksman]

Just picked up a Mossberg 590A1 - same scenario as OP (at home, any aggressor would have to come up from the ground floor, and everyone sleeps upstairs) - use slug, buckshot (000, 00, 4) or bird shot?

I have an 1100 under my bed. I keep the 1oz. rubber slugs in it. Probably kill someone if you shot them in the face or shot them up close however I think it is a good choice. They're not going to get up and penetration through walls and door isn't going to happen in most/all cases.

 

[MisterHappy]

Misses are more of a factor, I'd think, than over-penetration.

 

[ridleyman]

You seem to be all over the place. What exactly are you asking? Why are you throwing FMJ into the mix? Why would you even consider carrying FMJ when JHP is far better from a defensive perspective?

Why would you use a 1911 with FMJ? If your 1911 won't feed quality JHP reliably, then get it fixed. I carried a 1911 for years. My 1911s used for defensive purposes were always fed with JHP. Most recently I've settled on Federal HST, but there are plenty of high quality JHP designs.

What's even more of a concern to me is whether your 3 different carry guns have similar operating characteristics. If not, then you might want to start reconsiderations right there, long before getting into an overpenetration argument.

Look at some gel tests. Bullet design is very, very important in determining penetration, not caliber.

Thanks for your input, but maybe you should read what I wrote, once again. Carefully.

I don't carry the 1911 or use FMJ on the road. Your point about 3 guns is well taken, which is why I'm leaning towards 9mm at home too, which is what I suggested.. The .380 is just so convenient.

 

[weekendracer]

I think I can honestly say now, 'over penetration' could be a problem.

I'll be here all week, be sure to tip the bartender folks.

edit: I'm talking walls, not meatbags.

 

[MaroonedinMA]

There isn't a magical round that won't penetrate through several interior walls (1/2" drywall) at a minimum. Don't shoot where your family is. That's all you can do, really.



or pack a .40

 

[Agnotology]

Your home defense plan should take into consideration where your neighbors houses are. Every window and door is a point of ingress for an assailant. Figure out where you will post up, where your lines of fire are, and what potential hazards lie beyond. I know if I post up at my mid-point landing to cover my front door, over-penetration means rounds hitting my basement washer/dryer. I don't care about those if someone is inside my home. But if I am at the top of the stairs, and simply defend the second floor, shooting down to mid-point landing means putting rounds into my neighbors stairs and basement. Shooting through my front door means hitting my across-the-street-neighbor's car, and slinging rounds into the driveway/living room of my neighbor, but shooting out the back door means dirt backstop in the form of a hill.

Goes without saying, bullets can and will deviate in flight path from the muzzle line when they pass through objects. And it doesn't take much. Line up 10 or so cardboard sheets with 2" gaps or so and watch how much a round will yaw in just under 2 feet.

over penetration means a lot less after it's traveled through a torso though - the round, whether JHP or FMJ, will be mangled and larger than it started, which makes "overpenetration" tests only useful for how far misses can go.

 

[Qwikdraw45]

I don't understand why you wouldn't just use a good JHP round for everything defensive.



Easy - Federal Flight Control 00 buck. Don't overthink it. I messed around with various types of buckshot until I patterned the Federal shells, the performance isn't even in the same galaxy as everything else.

Since the OP is concerned about over penetration, I would think even 00 buck will overpenetrate. There are lots of videos/tests online about this. Most any handgun round will still penetrate drywall. We are in an apartment, where left, right, and up are all neighbors, so I have to carefully choose what to use, or where to point. If it's the front door, I'd have to drop to a knee so I'm shooting slightly up (it would go across the hall, but should hit high enough to not get our neighbor. If it's anywhere else, if a round doesn't stop in the intruder, it's going into a neighbor's.

 

[M1911]

Thanks for your input, but maybe you should read what I wrote, once again. Carefully.

I don't carry the 1911 or use FMJ on the road. Your point about 3 guns is well taken, which is why I'm leaning towards 9mm at home too, which is what I suggested.. The .380 is just so convenient.

1) I did read it. I’m still not really understanding what it is that you are asking because you are all over the place. Please rephrase your question succinctly.

2) You keep the 1911 at home for defense and you use FMJ in it. Why? 230 gr 45 ACP FMJ absolutely will overpenetrate. A 1911 is a fine choice for home defense, but I suggest you use JHP in it instead.

3) there are valid reasons to have multiple defensive handguns guns. I have three that I regularly use, but they all have compatible controls: Glock 19, Glock 43x, Kahr PM9. They are all striker fired guns with a button operated mag release, and a centrally located slide stop.

My Glock 19 is my primary home defense gun and primary carry gun. My 43x is easier to conceal than the 19. My PM9 is my pocket gun for hot summer days. If you are going to use different guns with differing controls, then you need to make sure that you can really run them under stress, without conscious thought about the controls.

4) 9mm JHP is not going to overpenetrate more than 45 ACP FMJ 230 gr. 45 ACP FMJ will go through at least 24” of ballistic gel. A good 9mm JHP is typically going to have penetration of less than 16”. But the important choice when it comes to overpenetration IS NOT the caliber. The important choice is the bullet type. 45 JHP will have similar penetration to 9mm JHP penetration.

5) If you are solely concerned with penetration of building walls (over penetration is generally concerned with bullets that pass through the perp and then go on to hit something else), as other have pointed out there is no magic bullet that will adequately ventilate a perp but won’t sail through several light construction walls. Both 9mm and 45 ACP will penetrate a similar amount of light construction walls, as shown by the Box O’ Truth. The Box O' Truth #1 - The Original Box O' Truth

So if your main concern is bullets that could go through multiple walls and hit innocent neighbors, then the caliber choice of 9mm or 45 ACP is mostly irrelevant— both will go through a number of walls. JHP will usually go through fewer walls than FMJ, but still will easily go through your external wall and your neighbor’s external wall.

 

[Agnotology]

I don't understand why you wouldn't just use a good JHP round for everything defensive.

Unfortunately, level 2 plates are cheaper than a few boxes of ammo nowadays, and you can pick up Level 3 for a little more than the price of a hi-point. I personally would prefer a body-armor defeating home defense round and using lanes of fire that I know are safe than to just hope the threat isn't wearing 15 layers of fiberglass and resin. This is an attempt from 6 years ago, and it stood up really well.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7jiIQOgwtI

 

[eboos]

I think I can honestly say now, 'over penetration' could be a problem.

You aren’t talking about a doctor’s visit are you?

 

[ridleyman]

1) I did read it. I’m still not really understanding what it is that you are asking because you are all over the place. Please rephrase your question succinctly.

2) You keep the 1911 at home for defense and you use FMJ in it. Why? 230 gr 45 ACP FMJ absolutely will overpenetrate. I suggest you use JHP instead.

3) there are valid reasons to have multiple defensive handguns guns. I have three that I regularly use, but they all have compatible controls: Glock 19, Glock 43x, Kahr PM9. They are all striker fired guns with a button operated mag release, and a centrally located slide stop.

My Glock 19 is my primary home defense gun and primary carry gun. My 43x is easier to conceal than the 19. My PM9 is my pocket gun for hot summer days. If you are going to use different guns with differing controls, then you need to make sure that you can really run them under stress, without conscious thought about the controls.

My 9 mm is an HK P30SK, and I use hp ammo. I'm pretty sure I mentioned that, and the suggestion that it might supplant the 1911. Maybe you skipped that sentence;
It happens to the best of us.

 

[AllaSnackbah]

Why would you use a 1911 with FMJ? If your 1911 won't feed quality JHP reliably, then get it fixed. I carried a 1911 for years. My 1911s used for defensive purposes were always fed with JHP. Most recently I've settled on Federal HST, but there are plenty of high quality JHP designs.

This.

What's even more of a concern to me is whether your 3 different carry guns have similar operating characteristics. If not, then you might want to start reconsiderations right there, long before getting into an overpenetration argument.

And this.

 

[M1911]

Since the OP is concerned about over penetration, I would think even 00 buck will overpenetrate. There are lots of videos/tests online about this. Most any handgun round will still penetrate drywall.

Yes, indeed, 00 buck will easily sail through light construction walls.

 

[Edek Kasica]

Just picked up a Mossberg 590A1 - same scenario as OP (at home, any aggressor would have to come up from the ground floor, and everyone sleeps upstairs) - use slug, buckshot (000, 00, 4) or bird shot?

I don't understand why you wouldn't just use a good JHP round for everything defensive.



Easy - Federal Flight Control 00 buck. Don't overthink it. I messed around with various types of buckshot until I patterned the Federal shells, the performance isn't even in the same galaxy as everything else.

Are we talking distance use beyond 30 to 40 feet for the flight controls?

 

[Edek Kasica]

Yes, indeed, 00 buck will easily sail through light construction walls.

I would think the smaller buckshot should be just as likely in home distance but not penetrate ass bad. I use 00 and slugs because there is no reasonable possibility of my line of fire going to the neighbors.

 

[kalash]

Since the OP is concerned about over penetration, I would think even 00 buck will overpenetrate. There are lots of videos/tests online about this. Most any handgun round will still penetrate drywall. We are in an apartment, where left, right, and up are all neighbors, so I have to carefully choose what to use, or where to point. If it's the front door, I'd have to drop to a knee so I'm shooting slightly up (it would go across the hall, but should hit high enough to not get our neighbor. If it's anywhere else, if a round doesn't stop in the intruder, it's going into a neighbor's.

Any round that can't penetrate a few sheets of drywall is kind of useless for home defense because it won't reach an attacker's vitals either. This is just like the folks loading birdshot for HD - terrible idea imho.

Are we talking distance use beyond 30 to 40 feet for the flight controls?

Flight Control made a fist size group at ~20 yards for me. That's why I like it - I don't have to worry about sending pellets where I don't want them to go, as long as I do my job they're all going into my intended target.

I would think the smaller buckshot should be just as likely in home distance but not penetrate ass bad. I use 00 and slugs because there is no reasonable possibility of my line of fire going to the neighbors.

You can use #4 buck, it'll be weaker. It'll still sail through walls easily though.


If wall penetration is a major concern, the best answer is to ditch the handgun and shotgun altogether and get an AR.

 

[weekendracer]

You aren’t talking about a doctor’s visit are you?

Unfortunately, no.

 

[Dennis in MA]

Years upon years ago I was at Sig School with Bank (Banks?) Miller who was head gun guy at. . . . DEA, I think.

He said he carried 9mm ball ammo. Overpenetration was not an issue. 18 or so years later, I'm still not so sure. I wanna say 9mm ball was penetration of 14-16" which means into the BG, out of the BG and enough force to do damage to anyone/thing behind them.

 

[Edek Kasica]

Years upon years ago I was at Sig School with Bank (Banks?) Miller who was head gun guy at. . . . DEA, I think.

He said he carried 9mm ball ammo. Overpenetration was not an issue. 18 or so years later, I'm still not so sure. I wanna say 9mm ball was penetration of 14-16" which means into the BG, out of the BG and enough force to do damage to anyone/thing behind them.

Ballistic gel penetration does not correlate to live bodies though.

 

[M1911]

Years upon years ago I was at Sig School with Bank (Banks?) Miller who was head gun guy at. . . . DEA, I think.

He said he carried 9mm ball ammo. Overpenetration was not an issue. 18 or so years later, I'm still not so sure. I wanna say 9mm ball was penetration of 14-16" which means into the BG, out of the BG and enough force to do damage to anyone/thing behind them.

That’s bad info. 9mm round nose FMJ will penetrate about 24” of ballistic gel. That is far more than is considered acceptable. Surprisingly, flat nosed 9mm TMJ penetrates even more.


View: https://youtu.be/7a6uCLdUOQI?si=P-jvmtQb7_9hG-iH


I took classes with Bank Miller at Sig but he is flat out wrong on this.

Just pick one of your favorite jhp from here Handgun Self-Defense Ammunition - Ballistic Testing Data

 

[M1911]

Ballistic gel penetration does not correlate to live bodies though.

It is not perfect but has proven to be a reasonable model.

 

[Edek Kasica]

It is not perfect but has proven to be a reasonable model.

I'll keep that in mind the next time a naked blob of jello attacks me.

 

[kalash]

Ballistic gel penetration does not correlate to live bodies though.

I'll keep that in mind the next time a naked blob of jello attacks me.

You should look up how and why it's made.

Cliffs: it's a damn good representation and the best thing we have for testing.