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Range results tonight... 9mm Glock 17 w/ RMR for the win. .45ACP distant second.

mav

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Decided to practice with some of my .45ACP handguns tonight and brought along my Glock 17 MOS w/ Trijicon RMR for the hell of it. Shot everything at approx. 14 yards and used the same FMJ 230 grain .45 for both the Sig and HK.

Started off with the Sig 220 Scorpion. Stupid easy to group my shots within the 8 and 9 ring. Recoil wasn't too bad, but the gun is big and heavy. Only put a couple of magazines through it as I've shot the P220 for years and it just works for me.

Moved to the HK45 Compact. I plan on making this my EDC, but need practice with it. Completely different animal than the Sig, even though they are both Double/Single action guns. The HK being polymer and a compact form is lighter to carry, but ends up with a bit more recoil. Everything was low for me (first time shooting the HK). I adjusted my point of aim higher and that seems to work. I'm guessing the HK is set up for "combat" sights where you cover your target with the front post. My Glock 17, 19 and Sig all have POA as the top of the front post. Took some adjusting, but eventually I was hitting the 8 ring consistently with occasional hits in the 9 and flyers in the 7, but groupings weren't great. Shooting the HK as accurately as I shoot my Glocks and the Sig will take quite a bit more practice. Definitely have issue with the combat sights, and the trigger will take some getting used to. I ended up shooting 120 round through the HK and it took that much to get comfortable with it. I also found the mag release was a PITA to manipulate as I'm always looking for a button with my thumb. Another thing to get used to.

Finished with my Glock 17 w/ RMR. It was like someone handed me the cheat codes to Duck Hunt. Most shots were in the 8 and 9 ring, groups were tighter, more bulls-eyes and recoil was much more manageable compared to the .45's. I shoot with both eyes open with the RMR and found my follow up shots were faster without losing accuracy with the dot. My hand and forearm didn't get as tired shooting the G17 either. All in all, I found myself really enjoying the G17 most of all, not the least because 9mm is just easier to shoot over and over. Ended up putting about 70 rounds down range with the Glock.

I've mostly been shooting my G19 which was my EDC. I shoot the G19 very well, fits like a glove in my hand, but the RMR on the 17 was pure joy. Going to have to seriously consider swapping out the slide on my G19 for an RMR compatible one. Anyway, it was a while since I put that many pistol rounds down range in one session. I still like .45ACP, but 9mm is definitely my mainstay and RMR's will be mandatory going forward. In terms of answering the age old question "what caliber?", the answer is the one you shoot the best and can afford to practice with most often... for me, that will still be 9mm.
 
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Isn't this just the difference between iron sights and optics? Stick an optic on the 45 and it'll perform better.
Yes and no. While I didn’t shoot it last night, I shoot my G19 better than the HK and both are irons and compact size.

I’m trying to decide if it’s the “combat” sights of the HK or the lighter weight/size of the compact polymer frame HK shooting .45 that is the issue.

Regardless, yes my accuracy would likely improve with an optic on the .45’s. I also think I enjoy shooting 9mm more these days. I’m considering picking up an HK in 9, so that would also help in an apples to apples comparison.
 
Glock 21 with a RMR might be the next stop on your journey
My edc knapsack gun is a g31 w 9mm conversion, streamlight tlr-1 and trijicon rmr. 17 rounds in std mag of hollowpoint.

If I’m carrying on bidy it’s a g43x with night sights and shield arms 15 round mag. Much more concealable.

The iron sights are sufficient, but given a choice (and time), I’m going for the dotted full size frame.
 
I think the grip angle and low bore axis on the Glock help as well. Every other handgun I have tried (save browning hi-power which weighs 11 lbs) has noticeably more muzzle flip than a glock for me.
 
After reading this and talking with @SwampYankee42 last night about red dots I just ordered another for my P365x! It should actually be delivered too!
Professional eye exam - $120
Sig romeo red dot - $130
Discovering my undiagnosed astigmatism - priceless
 
Does that sit inside / outside behind the trigger?
Watched what HK had for a vid on their website, couldn't really determine how it works.
On the HK45 Compact, the mag release is ambi and sits outside and just behind the trigger. It’s sort of like a paddle release. Just odd for me as my reflex after years of shooting Sig and Glock is reaching for a button to push with my thumb, not press down on a paddle in a different location. I have to think about it, so more time with the HK is necessary.
 
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Just got back from zeroing a couple of rifle BUIS and had a chance to shoot my new-to-me S&W R8 .357 revolver. Super accurate, easy to shoot well in single action and recoil even with the .357 magnum ammo was very manageable.

Compared to last night, the HK in .45 was a wild beast vs the tame S&W. I’m realizing how much caliber and mass go together for shooting performance. A full size metal revolver seems tame compared to a compact polymer, even with a round that has more energy. I know this sounds like a simple concept, but I never considered .45 a particularly difficult round to shoot.

I have zero experience with revolvers, so reloading was painful, but at 12 yards I’m bullseyeing 2” targets standing offhand support. That wasn’t happening with the HK45.
It’s a railed revolver, so I could easily add a reflex sight, but not sure it’s needed with this particular handgun. It works that damn well.
 
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I think the grip angle and low bore axis on the Glock help as well. Every other handgun I have tried (save browning hi-power which weighs 11 lbs) has noticeably more muzzle flip than a glock for me.
Interesting concept. My understanding is the HK45 was designed with the 1911 grip angle, as well as the ability to carry safely in condition 1 like a 1911. Having zero experience with 1911’s, I’m not sure if I would have the same problem or not as the HK. I’m also assuming a 1911 is heavy, like my P220…
 
Or perhaps 43x. It’s small, but more grip than 43. Factory std 10 round mag.

Another option is sig p365. Heard nothing but good about them.
A glock fan boy was at the range and I said the 365 is a better gun then his 43x.

He said no way.

I let him try my 365, and he said he's going to get one on the way home, and then sent me a photo of it.
 
Interesting concept. My understanding is the HK45 was designed with the 1911 grip angle

"No, it's not"

If it was I would point it straight. Like I do a 1911. If I pick up an HK45 and go thumbs forward with it, the muzzle is easily like 5 degrees down.

Someone at HK might have "intended" that, but the intention didnt come out to reality, at least not in my hands. Basically every time I would bring the gun up, I'd have to "heel" the gun up and roll my hands back slightly to make the thing point straight. With 1911s, Sigs, and Glocks, its nearly "in the slot". Glocks I might have to push hands out slightly to bring the front down but that at least is intuitive.

Intrinsically otherwise, incredible gun. Accurate and more reliable than the bulk of the market, neck and neck with a P220 or G21 in that department...
 
I’m not able to make a red dot on a handgun work for me as well as iron sights, except for standing still slow fire. That’s fun. But for me they don’t work out well for a defensive gun. I can’t pick them up as fast, especially when moving. I know a lot of people have success with them. And if you’re great with them in real-world scenario shooting then by all means use one. But they don’t work for me. I wonder how much better the average person really is with or without one.
 
"No, it's not"

If it was I would point it straight. Like I do a 1911. If I pick up an HK45 and go thumbs forward with it, the muzzle is easily like 5 degrees down.

Someone at HK might have "intended" that, but the intention didnt come out to reality, at least not in my hands. Basically every time I would bring the gun up, I'd have to "heel" the gun up and roll my hands back slightly to make the thing point straight. With 1911s, Sigs, and Glocks, its nearly "in the slot". Glocks I might have to push hands out slightly to bring the front down but that at least is intuitive.

Intrinsically otherwise, incredible gun. Accurate and more reliable than the bulk of the market, neck and neck with a P220 or G21 in that department...
I’m not an HK fanboy (yet, getting there), not an expert in their firearms by any means. The reason I even mentioned the 1911 grip angle is because of what I read in the HK45 manual. Here is an excerpt right out of it:

“The HK45 and HK45 Compact were developed as product improvements to the highly regarded HK USP45 and USP45 Compact family of pistols, first released in the 1990s. New user-inspired enhancements found on the HK45 and HK45 Compact are also found on recent Heckler & Koch semi-automatic pistols, including the P2000, P2000SK (Subcompact), and P30.
The HK45 and HK45 Compact were also developed as possible candidates for the Joint Combat Pistol (JCP) and Combat Pistol (CP) programs administered by the U.S. military in their search for a new service handgun to replace the 9mm M9. These programs were suspended before completion and no pistols were selected.
Key features and system characteristics
• Integral MIL STD 1913 (Picatinny) rail molded into the polymer frame for mounting lights, laser aimers, and other accessories

• Ergonomic (HK45 full-size) and slim-line (HK45 Compact) grip profiles with user replaceable grip panels to adjust the feel and grip circumference of the weapon to suit individual operator hand size and shooting preference
• HK45/HK45C grip-to-slide angle matches Model 1911’s profile”

I agree the Sig 220 and Glocks all point naturally for me. The HK will take time to get comfortable with. I do want to try a USP Compact 9mm and a full size HK45 as I may just be a wuss as I’m getting older and can’t shoot a polymer .45 compact as well as a full size/metal frame.

As an aside, am I mistaken about the combat sights on the HK45C? What you described in terms of heeling the gun up to point it straight would be indicative of naturally shooting low, correct? I was shooting low, even though I "thought" the front sight was even with the rear sights. I corrected this by shifting my point of aim up and covering what I wanted to shoot with the front sight post. Your post makes me wonder if that was a correction for the grip angle instead of the sight height.

I know we've had this discussion before, but this is what I'm referring to:
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Glocks and Sig 220 I use Sight Image 2. The HK I had to use Sight Image 3. If this is how the sights are set up (I found a post here with someone having the same issue and the consensus was HK sights were set up for Sight Image 3 (Combat Shooting). HK45C shooting low - Calguns.net, anyone have a recommendation for a replacement front sight (or set of sights). I have night sights from the factory on it now, but run combo fiber/tritium on my Glocks and prefer those to standard tritium, especially with a green or yellow rear and orange front contrast.
 
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I feel like I have to tip the Glock forward a little. It's not off by much but I just seem to point better with a 1911.

In my case with a glock the sight will point slightly high, but if I push my hands out further, the front always drops right in with irons. 1911s and most Sigs are more "neutral" in my hands.
 
For those who haven't seen the S&W R8/TRR8 .357, here's a pretty good review of it. If anyone is wondering why hickock45 is using a "swat" shield at the beginning of the video, it's because supposedly the TRR8/R8 was purpose built by S&W at the request of SWAT teams for the 1st man in an entry stack with a ballistic shield. With semi-autos, the slide can hit the shield while firing and cause a malfunction. I guess it happened enough where they asked S&W for a handgun that wouldn't have that issue, and the TRR8 was born. It's why the R8/TRR8 is tactical, i.e. black and railed top and bottom...


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uy_yU5rVJWQ


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faCR6EdAKUA



View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sb_GFV_0KY8


My first revolver and I'm really digging it. I plan on throwing a Surefire light and maybe an RMR and using it as my go to home defense handgun. If I can find a decent shoulder rig, I may even carry it during the winter under my hoodie/vest/jacket.

The guys running speed loaders make it look easy BTW. My reloading by hand was painful to say the least.
 
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I thought Glocks pointed naturally for me until I put the red dot on.
I have posted this video before, but try this draw method, or better yet, take ECQC from shivworks. I find if I consistently drive the gun straight out from my chest instead of swinging it up from the waist when drawing I can immediatley pick up the dot.

 
I'm before the 45ACP crowd shows up. "Muh gun won 2 word wars"
That's 1911, not 45ACP. SIG 220 originally came out in 1975, H&K 45 came out in 2006, FN FNX 45 came out in 2009, and even my CZ came out in 1997. Meanwhile, ALL Glocks are essentially a 1982 version with a few changes here and there. No progress, just like 1911.
The Glock fanboys are so... under-agimakated.
 
Yes and no. While I didn’t shoot it last night, I shoot my G19 better than the HK and both are irons and compact size.

I’m trying to decide if it’s the “combat” sights of the HK or the lighter weight/size of the compact polymer frame HK shooting .45 that is the issue.

Regardless, yes my accuracy would likely improve with an optic on the .45’s. I also think I enjoy shooting 9mm more these days. I’m considering picking up an HK in 9, so that would also help in an apples to apples comparison.
My EDC for the past five or so years has been an HK VP9. I recently purchased an HK45 and find that I shoot that better than the VP9, not by a lot, but enough. I've been carrying the HK45 here and there and find that it I'm easily able to conceal it, and plan on eventually making it my EDC or at least switching it up here and there. It really isn't that much larger or heavier than the VP9.

Not sure what trigger you have on your HK45C, but I have the V7 LEM trigger on mine. I would say having a compact would have an effect on your felt recoil. Also, HK's sights are a combat hold.
 
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