S&W's New Ban State Compliant M&P15...

Thanks, but no thanks....While I applaud Smith and Wesson for their attempt to provide what appear to be excellent rifles for those of us trapped behind enemy lines, it's way too neutered for the MSRP. It puzzles me why Smith and Wesson didn't bother to contract with Troy, (who provides their rail systems and sights), to put at least a brake on the end. It's one fugly rifle, (IMHO) and one could build a much nicer weapon, (M4 feedramps and all) for much less dough...
 
MassMark said:
You know what they say about opinions...Are you speaking from experience - or just out your ass?
Click to expand...

Check it out.

Let me know when you take a week long LE patrol rifle course and you see Troy BUIS falling off of rifles or their medieval muzzle brake screwing up operators night vision in a low light course of fire. I'd rather go back to Macedonia, OIF and OEF, humping the boonies with just a Colt M4A1 than some of the black "tactical" garbage I see people sporting around.

What infantry line companies or inner city police departments have you served with and actually field tested some of the Troy rifles? Have you run rifles built on with Troy accesories through a Law Enforcement Patrol Rifle Course???

From the perspective of someone who has been in the field they are junk.
 
Hawkeye said:
From the perspective of someone who has been in the field they are junk.
Click to expand...

You are in a minority, (do some research genius) and your claim that Troy BUIS were "falling off rifles" is nothing short of pure bullshit. Any moron with a screwdriver knows that a properly installed BUIS will not fall off a rifle unless the operator was too stupid to install it correctly.....Do you work for Midwest Industries?
 
MassMark said:
You are in a minority, (do some research genius) and your claim that Troy BUIS were "falling off rifles" is nothing short of pure bullshit. Any moron with a screwdriver knows that a properly installed BUIS will not fall off a rifle unless the operator was too stupid to install it correctly.....Do you work for Midwest Industries?
Click to expand...

No you are totally right and I don't know what I'm talking about. Whatever you say. This shit is just a full time job for me. Even with 3 deployments overseas under my belt you are a wealth of knowledge over practical experience I have gained in the field.

You still did not answer my question, GENIUS. What type of experience do have fielding a rifle with Troy sights and rails?

Funny thing, the stock colt LE6920's and M&P15 w/ carry handles did great.
 
MassMark said:
Thanks, but no thanks....While I applaud Smith and Wesson for their attempt to provide what appear to be excellent rifles for those of us trapped behind enemy lines, it's way too neutered for the MSRP. It puzzles me why Smith and Wesson didn't bother to contract with Troy, (who provides their rail systems and sights), to put at least a brake on the end. It's one fugly rifle, (IMHO) and one could build a much nicer weapon, (M4 feedramps and all) for much less dough...
Click to expand...

One reason they might not put the brake on is because then you can't remove the front sight assembly without cutting it off. Considering that most people who buy these rifles will likely add stuff at some point, putting a welded/pinned brake on would seem to be dumb.

Hawkeye said:
Check it out.

Let me know when you take a week long LE patrol rifle course and you see Troy BUIS falling off of rifles or their medieval muzzle brake screwing up operators night vision in a low light course of fire.
Click to expand...

Considering that LE in MA have access to flash suppressors rather than muzzle brakes, I doubt that's an issue for them.

And if your BUIS is falling off, that's your own stupid fault for not installing it properly.
 
Hawkeye said:
No you are totally right and I don't know what I'm talking about. Whatever you say. This shit is just a full time job for me. Even with 3 deployments overseas under my belt you are a wealth of knowledge over practical experience I have gained in the field.

You still did not answer my question, GENIUS. What type of experience do have fielding a rifle with Troy sights and rails?

Funny thing, the stock colt LE6920's and M&P15 w/ carry handles did great.
Click to expand...

I have never fielded Troy BUIS or rails overseas, but plenty have. Please, find me some intel other than your ramblings that Troy rails and BUIS are "junk"...Please, I beg of you. Or, are you the only one who has ever had problems with them? Because when problems arise, here, overseas or anywhere, the first place it pops up is on the WWW, (No not the World Wide Wrestling). Searches for reviews, (both positive and negative) support ZERO of your claims - ZERO. Reviews, (both civilian, LEO and military) are stellar - except for you of course Mr. 24/7 Operator.

Bullshit much?
 
vellnueve said:
One reason they might not put the brake on is because then you can't remove the front sight assembly without cutting it off. Considering that most people who buy these rifles will likely add stuff at some point, putting a welded/pinned brake on would seem to be dumb.



Considering that LE in MA have access to flash suppressors rather than muzzle brakes, I doubt that's an issue for them.

And if your BUIS is falling off, that's your own stupid fault for not installing it properly.
Click to expand...

I have also seen continuous problems with the Troy rail systems being loose and even being able to bend them. Plain and simple I won't trust my life to any of their products at the time being. Period.

And FYI, it wasn't on my rifle if that is what you are implying. I have trusted my life to Colt and LMT since 1998 and will continue doing so. The Smith M&P15 is also a fine piece of kit, but only with the carry handle.
 
MassMark said:
Thanks, but no thanks....While I applaud Smith and Wesson for their attempt to provide what appear to be excellent rifles for those of us trapped behind enemy lines, it's way too neutered for the MSRP. It puzzles me why Smith and Wesson didn't bother to contract with Troy, (who provides their rail systems and sights), to put at least a brake on the end. It's one fugly rifle, (IMHO) and one could build a much nicer weapon, (M4 feedramps and all) for much less dough...
Click to expand...

MSRP isn't even close to what you pay so what does it matter? Where are you going to buy a quality AR like the M&P15 for less than $940ish dollars?
M4 feedramps, properly staked LMT BCG... BM? DPMS? Stag? RRA? [laugh]

I've built my own AR's using quality parts, so I know how much it costs... "much less" is a bit of an overstatement. Unless your idea of "much less" differs from mine.
 
nanerclip said:
MSRP isn't even close to what you pay so what does it matter? Where are you going to buy a quality AR like the M&P15 for less than $940ish dollars?
M4 feedramps, properly staked LMT BCG... BM? DPMS? Stag? RRA? [laugh]

I've built my own AR's using quality parts, so I know how much it costs... "much less" is a bit of an overstatement. Unless your idea of "much less" differs from mine.
Click to expand...

Yeah that's one thing in this thread I will agree with. The MSRP is ridiculous.
 
All I can add to this is I have an M&P15FT. I paid $1150 after rebate and msrp was $1770. I couldn't have built it myself for cheaper and it's more accurate than I am.

I looked at the other fold down BUIS sets and the Troy was better made. I'm a noob when it comes to guns but I can tell a well machined part from a bad one. If they fall off, I suggest some Loctite blue.
 
Hawkeye said:
I have also seen continuous problems with the Troy rail systems being loose and even being able to bend them. Plain and simple I won't trust my life to any of their products at the time being. Period.

And FYI, it wasn't on my rifle if that is what you are implying. I have trusted my life to Colt and LMT since 1998 and will continue doing so. The Smith M&P15 is also a fine piece of kit, but only with the carry handle.
Click to expand...

Now I know you're full of it. Sorry man - call it not only like I see it, but like it is. Here's some search criteria for you - try it - I did:

  • Troy Industries BUIS falling off
  • Troy Industries junk
  • Troy Industried BUIS reviews
  • Troy Industries rail issues
  • Troy Industries malfunction
  • The latest: Troy Industries MRF bending

There is no way you have seen "continuous problems" with the Troy rails coming loose or bending - no way. It would be plastered everywhere if it were true, (which it clearly is not). If you also had any concept whatsoever how Troy BUIS and MRF-DI systems even attach and lock onto the rifle, you in no way would be dumb enough to make such claims - no way. To say you prefer the carry handle over rail systems and BUIS is admirable - I almost agree with you to a point. I have been considering my coming M4 build with waning decisions between the clean simple look and function and adding the utility of rails - so you had me there. When however you start spouting off that you have seen Troy BUIS ejecting from rifles and "continuous problems" with Troy rails bending and coming loose - you lost all credibility. I may not be humping kit in OIF, or taking a "week long LE patrol rifle class" but I'm no idiot either....
 
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Hawkeye said:
If that works, that's cool. Finest made BUIS I have beat the shit out of was an LMT on an MK18 MOD0. Talk about taking abuse.
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Was the rear folding or non folding? I've seen LMT labeled folding sights that were really Troys. LMT makes their own non-folding that looks really robust.
 
MassMark said:
I may not be humping kit in OIF, or taking a "week long LE patrol rifle class" but I'm no idiot either....
Click to expand...

No you're a child. And again you proved my point. I've seen this crap fail in the field. Just cause I've burst your bubble you got all mad. Now thanks for playing and giving me a chuckle this evening.

Oh and by the way as far as my field experience I'm bottom row, second from the right.
https://www-benning.army.mil/rtb/ranger/photo/2-99.jpg. Although I'm sure you'll think I'm BSing you again.

Please go ahead and keep doubting my integrity, you're just making yourself look like a child having a tantrum.
 
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nanerclip said:
MSRP isn't even close to what you pay so what does it matter? Where are you going to buy a quality AR like the M&P15 for less than $940ish dollars?
M4 feedramps, properly staked LMT BCG... BM? DPMS? Stag? RRA? [laugh]

I've built my own AR's using quality parts, so I know how much it costs... "much less" is a bit of an overstatement. Unless your idea of "much less" differs from mine.
Click to expand...

Well, here's a couple:

http://www.anvilarms.com/pc-35-14-standard-carbine.aspx

http://www.stagarms.com/product_info.php?cPath=13_22&products_id=205

My build:

Anvil Arms Lower: $185.00
Anvil Arms Upper: $355.00 (includes Troy brake install and FSB bayo shave)
BCM BCG: Properly staked and complete: $135.00
Troy rear BUIS: $100.00 (carry handle cheaper)
Stock: $95.00 (standard A2 cheaper)

Total: $870.00

In the configuration shown - expect to go a bit lower.....
 
Hawkeye said:
No you're a child. And again you proved my point. I've seen this crap fail in the field. Just cause I've burst your bubble you got all mad. Now thanks for playing and giving me a chuckle this evening.

Oh and by the way as far as my field experience I'm bottom row, second from the left.
https://www-benning.army.mil/rtb/ranger/photo/2-99.jpg. Although I'm sure you'll think I'm BSing you again.

Please go ahead and keep doubting my integrity, you're just making yourself look like a child having a tantrum.
Click to expand...

Please...Just because you served (or so you say) does not make you free from the bullshit meter. Your integrity? Based on what? Ridiculous claims? Super. And as for being mad? Hardly. I've got bigger fish to fry than the ramblings of a child himself who seems to know a whole lot about not much with regards to the failings of products that clearly don't seem to have a pattern of failing anywhere else in the world but in your own mind....Ramble on.....
 
Here's another one: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=13279

Also, I haven't seen street prices, but understand Charles Daly Defense will be putting out rifles below the $1,000.00 radar. They are also getting rave reviews, (m4 feedramps, properly staked BCG, MP tested on and on) and while I'm at it - check out the prices from one of our own:

http://www.jdlsales.net/9701.html

John will get my money long before Smith and Wesson. I think in the case of PaulD's rifle - he got a superb ride for a great price, considering all the extras that came with his rifle. I also agree that just putting a brake on a gun is likely a bad play, (everyone has a preference), so I stand corrected.
 
MassMark said:
Well, here's a couple:

http://www.anvilarms.com/pc-35-14-standard-carbine.aspx

http://www.stagarms.com/product_info.php?cPath=13_22&products_id=205

My build:

Anvil Arms Lower: $185.00
Anvil Arms Upper: $355.00 (includes Troy brake install and FSB bayo shave)
BCM BCG: Properly staked and complete: $135.00
Troy rear BUIS: $100.00 (carry handle cheaper)
Stock: $95.00 (standard A2 cheaper)

Total: $870.00

In the configuration shown - expect to go a bit lower.....
Click to expand...

Since when does Stag run properly staked gas keys? And M4 ramps? I just bought a Stag 1H upper two months ago, it has neither. I'm sorry, but Stag isn't equal to the current Smith line in quality/features.

$870 isn't much less than the M&P15, especially when you factor in S&W's $50 summer rebate special... then there's S&W's customer service (which I've had great luck with) to add to all of that.

Either way, I could care less... I was just passing on info to any M&P15 owners that a new model has been released. I already own two (OR & FT) and plan on getting the M&P15I as well.
 
nanerclip said:
Since when does Stag run properly staked gas keys? And M4 ramps? I just bought a Stag 1H upper two months ago, it has neither. I'm sorry, but Stag isn't equal to the current Smith line in quality/features.

$870 isn't much less than the M&P15, especially when you factor in S&W's $50 summer rebate special... then there's S&W's customer service (which I've had great luck with) to add to all of that.

Either way, I could care less... I was just passing on info to any M&P15 owners that a new model has been released. I already own two (OR & FT) and plan on getting the M&P15I as well.
Click to expand...

You are right about Stag and the $870.00 is for a rifle with features I selected - not those that were selected for me. Take off the A2 stock on the M&P and add a Sully for example and it goes up. Brake + gunsmithing and it goes up further. I suppose if someone wants a bare-bones rifle, then the S&W is peachy, but start to add on and it will get expensive.

I thought you posted your thread with the thought that people might respond, (both positively and negatively). I wasn't aware that it was for information purposes only....Sorry.
 
Hawkeye said:
I have also seen continuous problems with the Troy rail systems being loose and even being able to bend them. Plain and simple I won't trust my life to any of their products at the time being. Period.

And FYI, it wasn't on my rifle if that is what you are implying. I have trusted my life to Colt and LMT since 1998 and will continue doing so. The Smith M&P15 is also a fine piece of kit, but only with the carry handle.
Click to expand...

That's your own personal opinion. Not a fact. The fact is that most of the rifles coming off the Colt and FN lines now aren't being fitted with carry handles anymore.

If you like carry handles, that's fine, but the fact is that a LOT of people, including military types, prefer the flattop receivers with optics and backup sights.
 
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vellnueve said:
That's your own personal opinion. Not a fact. The fact is that most of the rifles coming off the Colt and FN lines now aren't being fitted with carry handles anymore.

If you like carry handles, that's fine, but the fact is that a LOT of people, including military types, prefer the flattop receivers with optics and backup sights.
Click to expand...

Ya don't say???? Stunning grasp of the obvious there, hoss. Oops I kinda forgot I was using the M68 CCO before the turn of the century until you reminded me. Thanks chief.
 
And yet you contend that the carry handle variants of the AR-15/M16 series are the only good ones?

Remove the crack pipe.
 
MassMark said:
You are right about Stag and the $870.00 is for a rifle with features I selected - not those that were selected for me. Take off the A2 stock on the M&P and add a Sully for example and it goes up. Brake + gunsmithing and it goes up further. I suppose if someone wants a bare-bones rifle, then the S&W is peachy, but start to add on and it will get expensive.

I thought you posted your thread with the thought that people might respond, (both positively and negatively). I wasn't aware that it was for information purposes only....Sorry.
Click to expand...

I was just a bit surprised by your post. In regards to the M&P15, S&W is one of the few companys that actually listened to their customers.

The M&P15 went from your run of the mill AR to having...
- LMT BCG's (a quality BCG with properly staked gas key is a MUST, especially with a carbine length gas system).
- Staked castle nuts
- M4 feedramps
- And now (model specific, they don't make an AWB compliant version... YET), a model with mid length gas system and 1:7 twist.

The M&P15's are the only production rifles in AWB form that have any of the above features.

WOW... then there's the no lock 642's. S&W has seriously impressed me recently.
 

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