SBR QUESTION

[Sparky1911]

I am doing my first 9mm AR SBR
Someone told me that In Massachusetts, the OAL must be at least 26 inches.
I thought the whole point of this was to have a rifle shorter than 26 with a shorter barrel. Does he have his head up his ass?

 

[milktree]

SBR rules have both barrel length and overall length factors.

To not be an SBR, the barrel must be more than 16" (16.001" is fine, but harder to prove than 16-1/2") and an overall length of at least 26".

If your rifle fails either of those, and is a rifle (not built originally as a handgun) it's an SBR and requires an ATF tax stamp and registration and stuff.

 

[CrackPot]

I am doing my first 9mm AR SBR
Someone told me that In Massachusetts, the OAL must be at least 26 inches.
I thought the whole point of this was to have a rifle shorter than 26 with a shorter barrel. Does he have his head up his ass?

The only MA law you care about is MGL 140 131M, which makes it a felony to possess an assault weapon. MA does not care about OAL except when determining if an object is a sawed off shotgun. Make your SBR. Follow the rifle definition of assault weapon so pin/weld a muzzle brake, fixed stock, etc. Enjoy

 

[PappyM3]

SBR rules have both barrel length and overall length factors.

To not be an SBR, the barrel must be more than 16" (16.001" is fine, but harder to prove than 16-1/2") and an overall length of at least 26".

If your rifle fails either of those, and is a rifle (not built originally as a handgun) it's an SBR and requires an ATF tax stamp and registration and stuff.

Yup, but as Crackpot mentioned, Massachusetts has no law restricting OAL of a rifle.

 

[Sparky1911]

Thanks fellas. I was pretty sure he was wrong. Thats the whole point of an sbr.

 

[PappyM3]

Thanks fellas. I was pretty sure he was wrong. Thats the whole point of an sbr.

But Massachusetts is VERY strict with short barrel shotguns. You cannot take a normal 18”+ barrel shotgun and convert it into an SBS in MA (there is also the 26” OAL factor). Otherwise it is a “sawed off shotgun” and has a life sentence. Completely disproportional sentencing, someone who creates an SBS from a full size shotgun has a more severe punishment than child rapists and murderers.

 

[voidoid]

The workaround to acquire an SBS is to purpose build it from the start - this way it never existed as a shotgun according to MA law and therefore cannot meet the definition of a sawed off shotgun. There are a few companies doing this, and receivers are also available online. It can be done. Not sure i've ever seen one that anyone built, though.

 

[CrackPot]

The workaround to acquire an SBS is to purpose build it from the start - this way it never existed as a shotgun according to MA law and therefore cannot meet the definition of a sawed off shotgun. There are a few companies doing this, and receivers are also available online. It can be done. Not sure i've ever seen one that anyone built, though.

You don't even have to go that crazy (and i've seen a lot).

The definition is

''Sawed-off shotgun'', any weapon made from a shotgun, whether by alteration, modification or otherwise, if such weapon as modified has one or more barrels less than 18 inches in length or as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches.

The key being do not start with a shotgun. There is no "never existed as a shotgun" clause in the definition. You, the person making the SBS, cannot start with a shotgun. So get a shockwave with a 14.5" barrel (not a shotgun under MA law). Or get a receiver from any source. The history of the receiver does not matter. All that matters is that YOU the maker never had a shotgun to start when you made the SBS.

Any 07 FFL can take a shotgun and manufacture it into a receiver (must be a 07 per ATF) and then transfer the receiver to the person making the SBS.

People do this a lot more often than you think.

 

[PappyM3]

You don't even have to go that crazy (and i've seen a lot).

The definition is

''Sawed-off shotgun'', any weapon made from a shotgun, whether by alteration, modification or otherwise, if such weapon as modified has one or more barrels less than 18 inches in length or as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches.

The key being do not start with a shotgun. There is no "never existed as a shotgun" clause in the definition. You, the person making the SBS, cannot start with a shotgun. So get a shockwave with a 14.5" barrel (not a shotgun under MA law). Or get a receiver from any source. The history of the receiver does not matter. All that matters is that YOU the maker never had a shotgun to start when you made the SBS.

Any 07 FFL can take a shotgun and manufacture it into a receiver (must be a 07 per ATF) and then transfer the receiver to the person making the SBS.

People do this a lot more often than you think.

Eh. The shockwave is one thing and clearly legal. But using a receiver that used to be a full size shotgun is pretty sketchy. The law only says “any weapon made from a shotgun, whether by alteration, modification or otherwise,”. It doesn’t say anything about it being made directly from a shotgun. If I have an 07 FFL convert it to a non-shotgun before I turn it into an SBS, it could still be claimed to be made from a shotgun, just that it was the 07 FFL who first removed the barrel.

The state doesn’t care that it’s an 07 FFL turning it into a receiver. That only matters for off-roster transfer purposes. For the state, an FFL doing it would be no different than an individual removing the barrel first and making into “not a gun” according to the state, before throwing on a short barrel. That is still taking a shotgun and modifying it to have a short barrel. It just has an extra step as a not-a-gun temporarily.

Remember, the law isn’t about the act of sawing off the barrel. It doesn’t matter whether an individual does it or an FFL.. The law is about the possession. Was that SBS you possess previously a shotgun? I think a reasonable person would say “yes, that SBS was previously a shotgun” if someone (individual or FFL doesn’t matter) took a shotgun, removed the barrel, and put on a short barrel.

According to that logic, a person could do the following and be safe from the law:
- Remove their 18” barrel
- The shotgun is no longer a gun
- Saw their barrel to 12”
- Get an SBS stamp
- Reinstall the shortened barrel

I know I wouldn’t want to risk life in prison because of that vagueness. Those who don’t care, more power to ‘em.

 

[drgrant]

Eh. The shockwave is one thing and clearly legal. But using a receiver that used to be a full size shotgun is pretty sketchy. The law only says “any weapon made from a shotgun, whether by alteration, modification or otherwise,”. It doesn’t say anything about it being made directly from a shotgun. If I have an 07 FFL convert it to a non-shotgun before I turn it into an SBS, it could still be claimed to be made from a shotgun, just that it was the 07 FFL who first removed the barrel.

The state doesn’t care that it’s an 07 FFL turning it into a receiver. That only matters for off-roster transfer purposes. For the state, an FFL doing it would be no different than an individual removing the barrel first and making into “not a gun” according to the state, before throwing on a short barrel. That is still taking a shotgun and modifying it to have a short barrel. It just has an extra step as a not-a-gun temporarily.

Remember, the law isn’t about the act of sawing off the barrel. It doesn’t matter whether an individual does it or an FFL.. The law is about the possession. Was that SBS you possess previously a shotgun? I think a reasonable person would say “yes, that SBS was previously a shotgun” if someone (individual or FFL doesn’t matter) took a shotgun, removed the barrel, and put on a short barrel.

According to that logic, a person could do the following and be safe from the law:
- Remove their 18” barrel
- The shotgun is no longer a gun
- Saw their barrel to 12”
- Get an SBS stamp
- Reinstall the shortened barrel

I know I wouldn’t want to risk life in prison because of that vagueness. Those who don’t care, more power to ‘em.

A reasonable person has know way of knowing what configuration something was if they just purchased it as a receiver, which under MGL, isn't a firearm, a shotgun, or
anything legally regulated for that matter.

Nobody is going to prison over this or any other angels on a head of a pin MA gun law nonsense.

This will happen right after someone goes to prison for having a preban AR that wasnt perfectly in banned configuration on 9/13/94

eg, Never.

At some point or another some of you guys have to step away from the glue or model paints. This is effectively in the same realm as the glue sniffers that think that USC 922R means anything for anyone other than the context of the activities of a licensed manufacturer.

 

[PappyM3]

A reasonable person has know way of knowing what configuration something was if they just purchased it as a receiver, which under MGL, isn't a firearm, a shotgun, or
anything legally regulated for that matter.

Nobody is going to prison over this or any other angels on a head of a pin MA gun law nonsense.

This will happen right after someone goes to prison for having a preban AR that wasnt perfectly in banned configuration on 9/13/94

eg, Never.

At some point or another some of you guys have to step away from the glue or model paints. This is effectively in the same realm as the glue sniffers that think that USC 922R means anything for anyone other than the context of the activities of a licensed manufacturer.

My reasonable person comment is about a juror, whether they think it was modified from a shotgun if it was briefly not a shotgun. As for whether a receiver used to be a shotgun or not, that is pretty clearly known. Its not ambiguous like some AR receivers.

And yeah, the likelihood of ever getting in trouble for it is very low, but the impact is practically off the charts of a risk matrix.

This is possible life in prison. 922r is 5 years. Understanding that these are not mandatory minimums, but still.

 

[drgrant]

My reasonable person comment is about a juror, whether they think it was modified from a shotgun if it was briefly not a shotgun. As for whether a receiver used to be a shotgun or not, that is pretty clearly known. Its not ambiguous like some AR receivers.

It's pretty ambiguous, how does a layperson know what configuration that reciever was in before they got it? You can't tell just by looking at it.

Further, is it even relevant? at tthe point of acqusition by the accused, the thing was not a shotgun. It was not even a device regulated by MGL, but a piece of metal.

Now, if the buyer did something stupid, like provide an 07 with an intact shotgun (that they had already owned) , and take back a receiver, then I could see your argument being SLIGHTLY more provable, at least the state could then argue "SEE! he had this device as a shotgun and (effectively) turned it into a sawed off through a series of actions!!!!" etc. I'd buy that being plausible, if someone was really that f***ing stupid, then yes, I can see a shitty prosecutor trying something off that.

But some pud buying a random receiver he or she knows nothing about off a dealer? no way.

and yeah, the likelihood of ever getting in trouble for it is very low, but the impact is practically off the charts of a risk matrix.

Not very low, more like impossible, or "highly improbable". Buy a powerball ticket, your odds are way, way better that worrying about this crap.

This is possible life in prison. 922r is 5 years. Understanding that these are not mandatory minimums, but still.

Nobody gets max for paper gun BS in mass, ever. Or anywhere near it. Particularly not over an insanely difficult to prosecute charge. It's also pretty obvious the intent here was "to deter some rando from taking a shotgun and cutting it down into a sawed off shotgun".

 

[CrackPot]

Eh. The shockwave is one thing and clearly legal. But using a receiver that used to be a full size shotgun is pretty sketchy. The law only says “any weapon made from a shotgun, whether by alteration, modification or otherwise,”. It doesn’t say anything about it being made directly from a shotgun. If I have an 07 FFL convert it to a non-shotgun before I turn it into an SBS, it could still be claimed to be made from a shotgun, just that it was the 07 FFL who first removed the barrel.

The state doesn’t care that it’s an 07 FFL turning it into a receiver. That only matters for off-roster transfer purposes. For the state, an FFL doing it would be no different than an individual removing the barrel first and making into “not a gun” according to the state, before throwing on a short barrel. That is still taking a shotgun and modifying it to have a short barrel. It just has an extra step as a not-a-gun temporarily.

Remember, the law isn’t about the act of sawing off the barrel. It doesn’t matter whether an individual does it or an FFL.. The law is about the possession. Was that SBS you possess previously a shotgun? I think a reasonable person would say “yes, that SBS was previously a shotgun” if someone (individual or FFL doesn’t matter) took a shotgun, removed the barrel, and put on a short barrel.

According to that logic, a person could do the following and be safe from the law:
- Remove their 18” barrel
- The shotgun is no longer a gun
- Saw their barrel to 12”
- Get an SBS stamp
- Reinstall the shortened barrel

I know I wouldn’t want to risk life in prison because of that vagueness. Those who don’t care, more power to ‘em.

Your conclusion is widely off base and in no way related to what I said.

a) FFL has a shotgun
b) FFL (who is an 07), manufactures shotgun into receiver
c) FFL sells receiver to MA resident
d) MA resident creates SBS

You instead created some crazy ass scenario that no sane person would pursue. The key here is that a FFL insulates the MA buyer from whatever history the receiver had. They have no way to know what it was in the past and no accountability for what it was in the past.

Step a) could be a shockwave and "not a shotgun". Step a) and b) could be skipped entirely since FFL got a virgin receiver. When you get to step c), the MA resident cannot tell the difference between any of these and there is nothing that would cause them to be aware of any of these.

If you are extra paranoid, have the FFL be a non-MA FFL adding yet another layer of unnecessary protection.

 

[PappyM3]

Your conclusion is widely off base and in no way related to what I said.

a) FFL has a shotgun
b) FFL (who is an 07), manufactures shotgun into receiver
c) FFL sells receiver to MA resident
d) MA resident creates SBS

You instead created some crazy ass scenario that no sane person would pursue. The key here is that a FFL insulates the MA buyer from whatever history the receiver had. They have no way to know what it was in the past and no accountability for what it was in the past.

Step a) could be a shockwave and "not a shotgun". Step a) and b) could be skipped entirely since FFL got a virgin receiver. When you get to step c), the MA resident cannot tell the difference between any of these and there is nothing that would cause them to be aware of any of these.

If you are extra paranoid, have the FFL be a non-MA FFL adding yet another layer of unnecessary protection.

My point is very simple.

Was the SBS a shotgun previously before being modified into an SBS?

The law doesn’t specify if only one step is considered for the modification/alteration. The MA law does not care if an 07 FFL is involved in any of the steps. The MA law does not care if any of the steps were out of state.

 

[PappyM3]

It's pretty ambiguous, how does a layperson know what configuration that reciever was in before they got it? You can't tell just by looking at it.

To say a normal person would have no way of knowing if a receiver was previously a full shotgun is silly. Nobody just runs with the premise with assuming any preban AR was a pistol.

We don’t all just put our preban ARs into pistol configuration without investigating whether it was first produced as a pistol.

Same concept, just MA vs fed laws behind the need to verify.

 

[CrackPot]

My point is very simple.

Was the SBS a shotgun previously before being modified into an SBS?

The law doesn’t specify if only one step is considered for the modification/alteration. The MA law does not care if an 07 FFL is involved in any of the steps. The MA law does not care if any of the steps were out of state.

The law does not care about the history of the weapon. The law cares about the person doing the modifications and did they start with a shotgun and end with a sawed off shotgun. You continue to make this far harder than it needs to be.

 

[xtry51]

They make bullpup shotguns if you want something short. We have a Centurion BP12 for predator control because it's easier for smaller people like women and young teens to shoulder versus a typical bird gun.

It's been 100% reliable. You can get 5, 10 or 20 round mags. Superior to the AK/Saiga or AR12 shotguns IMO because of the weight balance and maneuverability.

 

[xtry51]

The law does not care about the history of the weapon. The law cares about the person doing the modifications and did they start with a shotgun and end with a sawed off shotgun. You continue to make this far harder than it needs to be.

The ATF would love to have a talk with you about how SBRs cannot become rifles.

The history is 100% important to some aspects of firearms restrictions.

 

[CrackPot]

They make bullpup shotguns if you want something short. We have a Centurion BP12 for predator control because it's easier for smaller people like women and young teens to shoulder versus a typical bird gun.

It's been 100% reliable. You can get 5, 10 or 20 round mags. Superior to the AK/Saiga or AR12 shotguns IMO because of the weight balance and maneuverability.

View attachment 886176

And 100% illegal in MA (where we are discussing the sawed off shotgun topic)

 

[CrackPot]

The ATF would love to have a talk with you about how SBRs cannot become rifles.

The history is 100% important to some aspects of firearms restrictions.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT MA LAW HERE. Federally no one gives a shit about "sawed off shotguns" as defined by MA.

 

[xtry51]

And 100% illegal in MA (where we are discussing the sawed off shotgun topic)

Really? That's f***ing lame

 

[xtry51]

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT MA LAW HERE. Federally no one gives a shit about "sawed off shotguns" as defined by MA.

Hey man calm down. You made a blanket statement easily misinterpretable to the uninformed.

 

[CrackPot]

Really? That's f***ing lame

It's an assault weapon. semi auto, detachable and pistol grip add up to felony in a shotgun

 

[CrackPot]

Hey man calm down. You made a blanket statement easily misinterpretable to the uninformed.

And you stepped in to confuse the matter. Got it.

 

[xtry51]

And you stepped in to confuse the matter. Got it.

This discussion is in the general section, not the MA Law section.

 

[drgrant]

This discussion is in the general section, not the MA Law section.

I'll move it for clarity....

 

[PappyM3]

The law does not care about the history of the weapon. The law cares about the person doing the modifications and did they start with a shotgun and end with a sawed off shotgun. You continue to make this far harder than it needs to be.

You’re normally very exacting with law. But the law has nothing to do with who did the modifications to create the SBS/“sawed off shotgun”. The law says absolutely nothing about whether one person started it as a shotgun and that same person finished the modification.

The law is only about possessing, carrying, or transporting a sawed off shotgun. It is not about CREATING or manufacturing a sawed off shotgun.

And the law is vague its definition of a sawed off shotgun, like much of MA gun law.

Show me below where it limits the definition to only be applicable if one person performs the modifications.


“''Sawed-off shotgun'', any weapon made from a shotgun, whether by alteration, modification or otherwise, if such weapon as modified has one or more barrels less than 18 inches in length or as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches.”

“(c) Whoever, except as provided by law, possesses a machine gun,… or whoever owns, possesses or carries on his person, or carries on his person or under his control in a vehicle, a sawed-off shotgun, as defined in said section one hundred and twenty-one of said chapter one hundred and forty, shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for life, or for any term of years provided that any sentence imposed under the provisions of this paragraph shall be subject to the minimum requirements of paragraph (a).”

 

[milktree]

You’re normally very exacting with law. But the law has nothing to do with who did the modifications to create the SBS/“sawed off shotgun”. The law says absolutely nothing about whether one person started it as a shotgun and that same person finished the modification.

The law is only about possessing, carrying, or transporting a sawed off shotgun. It is not about CREATING or manufacturing a sawed off shotgun.

And the law is vague its definition of a sawed off shotgun, like much of MA gun law.

Show me below where it limits the definition to only be applicable if one person performs the modifications.


“''Sawed-off shotgun'', any weapon made from a shotgun, whether by alteration, modification or otherwise, if such weapon as modified has one or more barrels less than 18 inches in length or as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches.”

A receiver is NOT a shotgun under mass law:

C. 140 § 121:

"Shotgun" a weapon having a smooth bore with a barrel length equal to or greater than 18 inches with an overall length equal to or greater than 26 inches, and capable of discharging a shot or bullet for each pull of the trigger.

A short barreled shotgun made from a receiver was made from a receiver, not from a shotgun, would not be a "sawed-off shotgun"

 

[PappyM3]

A receiver is NOT a shotgun under mass law:

C. 140 § 121:


A short barreled shotgun made from a receiver was made from a receiver, not from a shotgun, would not be a "sawed-off shotgun"

Understood on that. I’m just saying the wording of the law is vague enough that “made from” a shotgun could include if it was at one point previously a shotgun, it was it was made from a shotgun.

Hell, if you take your barrel off, it’s no longer a shotgun, right? It’s not capable of firing a shot. One could just then throw on a shorter barrel (with a tax stamp) and say it wasn’t made from a shotgun because they put the shorter barrel on a “not a gun” receiver.

 

[milktree]

Understood on that. I’m just saying the wording of the law is vague enough that “made from” a shotgun could include if it was at one point previously a shotgun, it was it was made from a shotgun.

Hell, if you take your barrel off, it’s no longer a shotgun, right? It’s not capable of firing a shot. One could just then throw on a shorter barrel (with a tax stamp) and say it wasn’t made from a shotgun because they put the shorter barrel on a “not a gun” receiver.

Sure, but by that logic, if you melt down a shotgun, forge a new receiver from the material, and build a SBS from it, it was "made from a shotgun", and therefore a "sawed-off shotgun"