Check out MIL-C-9963F and MIL-C-63989A(AR),
Every spec had a shit ton of info also
Oh and theres really no reason other shtf to run m193/M855 through a nice older 223 bolt gun especially if its a slow twist like 1/14 1/12 .
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School me on .223 and 5.56
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Every spec had a shit ton of info also
Oh and theres really no reason other shtf to run m193/M855 through a nice older 223 bolt gun especially if its a slow twist like 1/14 1/12 .
1903Collector
NES Member
What you "need" to know:
5.56 in .223 chamber = bad
.223 in 5.56 chamber = good
.223 Wylde chamber = good for both
As to why, I will leave it to wiser men to explain that!
5.56 in .223 chamber = bad
.223 in 5.56 chamber = good
.223 Wylde chamber = good for both
As to why, I will leave it to wiser men to explain that!
allen-1
NES Member
Asaltweapon
NES Member
He’s been on ignore for a while now.
I wouldn’t run steel through any AR platform except my MCX or any other piston driven. The bolt being on a set of springs is the only reason why is my theory. I tried numerous times in all my different AR’s and it’s a malfunction every time, especially in winter. I’ve gone through 2 extractors with a very, very low round count. Brass only for me. As far as 223 vs 5.56…which ever is available and stay the hell away from NATO green tip. It blows and you can’t even shoot steel with it anyway.
Taipan01
NES Member
You don't have to be into AR's to partake in the main question. The cartridge(s) are available in other platforms such as bolt actions. They are (a) nice caliber(s) for medium size game or varmints if you enjoy hunting and/or very accurate for target shooting. As mentioned, there are slight variations not only in pressure but the actual cartridges dimensions. Then, depending on your final use, barrel twist and bullet weight may weigh in.
I'm just looking at it as a discussion on the cartridges themselves instead of platform.
Soundwave
NES Member
I hope you're wrong. Just bought a case of steel 308!
.223 Wylde chamber - Wikipedia
Yeah, but in this day and age, and on this particular forum, the caliber definitely goes with the AR platform, discussion-wise. And if I'm not into ARs, then that probably means I AM into AKs or FALs (both, actually), meaning I'm much more interested in 7.62 across the board. The only reason I've even started to get a little bit smart about pew-pew rounds lately is because I now own a Daewoo and a 1970s AR, meaning the difference between 1:12 and 1:7 suddenly matters to me.
On the FAL side, there's the same sort of discussion concerning .308 and 7.62 NATO. So it's not a foreign concept. But I do think that being a dick about peoples' ignorance about 5.56 and claiming that means they know nothing about firearms? That's not kosher, and he deserved to get slapped down for that.
I, too, have a pro-brass bias in ARs. I think it's a mental thing, more than anything else: I always associate 5.56 with military shooting, so I've only ever fired brass out of DI systems. I'm fine with running steel in 7.62x39, but for some reason it "feels wrong" to me in 5.56. Weird.
I used to be the same way about 7.62x51, but now I've satisfied myself that my L1A1 can run Polyformance reliably. So I'm down with that.
I run steel .308. I don’t use it exclusively, but mix it in as range fodder. It’s fine and I have no issues. I also don’t have “obscure” steel, mainly Wolf in it’s various forms and some Silver bear. I’d be a little more cautious with some of the random ‘flavor of the week’ type stuff. AR’s are harsh on brass, not as harsh as the PTR 91 and it’s fluted chamber that convinced me to invest in steel .308. No point in trying to retrieve brass from that thing considering it was typically mangled and thrown into low earth orbit.
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SHOCKNAWE
NES Member
I never shoot steel either. What’s your issue with green tip though? I had about a thousand rounds that were from my old stash that I wanted to get rid of and I never had a problem with it at all. Shot great, but all my AR’s have FN barrels and either BCM or DD BCG’s
bigbravehog
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I can relate. I have owned firearms for 30+ years, but purchased my first AR last year. AR15.com is a good resource.
D
Deleted member 67409
(1) .223 Remington came first. In the 1970s, FN developed 5.56x45 using .223 Rem as the starting point. Prior to FN developing 5.56, only the US and some of our allies, such as people we gave early M16s to and also Israel, were using .223. After NATO adoption, different story.
(2) Because .223 Remington is a commercial cartridge, there isn't one, set, defined load. However, 55gr @ 3250fps is pretty normal in .223.
With 5.56 being a NATO standard cartridge, it usually comes in three flavors - 55gr M193, 62gr SS109 and M855 ("Green Tip"), and 77gr match ammo. There are obviously a bunch of niche military loads for specific purposes, but most 5.56 is 55gr or 62gr, with guys going for match or mid/long range shooting 77ish-grain bullets. One of my college professors was a CMP shooter back in the 90s and he was one of the first guys among his shooting friends to start experimenting with big, long, heavy bullets back in the day. Now, not so unusual.
(3) Use a twist rate that matches up with what you're primarily going to shoot, or, the biggest bullet you would want to shoot. Usually, 1-in-7 and 1-in-8 are typical these days. 1-in-12 is basically only for 55gr bullets.
Historical clone guns are a different discussion. If you're building or buying a clone, get the historically correct twist rate. My 5.56 Beryl, for example, is set up to primarily shoot 62gr but also 55gr when needed.
(4) The cartridges are largely interchangeable provided you stay within acceptable parameters for your twist rate, chamber, etc. Don't stuff a huge, long, 80gr bullet into a 1-in-12 twist barrel, or shoot very spicy handloads in a military-spec barrel, and you'll be fine. Err on the side of caution.
Using my Beryl as an example again, the model name includes "223", but the barrel's stamped "5.56". So, I just shoot 5.56 M855 and M193 in it. No reason to deviate for that gun.
(5) Where are you seeing *actual, not mild* steel core ammo to warrant concern? Mild and bi-metal steel cores aren't a worry. You likely won't shoot the gun enough to notice.
Actual steel core ammo isn't easy to find, let alone shoot in sufficient volume to warrant concern.
(6) With the Russian ammo ban taking effect, I also wouldn't overthink steel cased ammo. Steel cased is probably going to slowly leave the market. I love steel cased ammo and haven't seen any issues.
Another historical note - French 55gr ammo uses steel cases. The French adopted .223/5.56 in the mid-70s, before NATO really settled on a common cartridge. The rest of NATO uses brass, I think.
(2) Because .223 Remington is a commercial cartridge, there isn't one, set, defined load. However, 55gr @ 3250fps is pretty normal in .223.
With 5.56 being a NATO standard cartridge, it usually comes in three flavors - 55gr M193, 62gr SS109 and M855 ("Green Tip"), and 77gr match ammo. There are obviously a bunch of niche military loads for specific purposes, but most 5.56 is 55gr or 62gr, with guys going for match or mid/long range shooting 77ish-grain bullets. One of my college professors was a CMP shooter back in the 90s and he was one of the first guys among his shooting friends to start experimenting with big, long, heavy bullets back in the day. Now, not so unusual.
(3) Use a twist rate that matches up with what you're primarily going to shoot, or, the biggest bullet you would want to shoot. Usually, 1-in-7 and 1-in-8 are typical these days. 1-in-12 is basically only for 55gr bullets.
Historical clone guns are a different discussion. If you're building or buying a clone, get the historically correct twist rate. My 5.56 Beryl, for example, is set up to primarily shoot 62gr but also 55gr when needed.
(4) The cartridges are largely interchangeable provided you stay within acceptable parameters for your twist rate, chamber, etc. Don't stuff a huge, long, 80gr bullet into a 1-in-12 twist barrel, or shoot very spicy handloads in a military-spec barrel, and you'll be fine. Err on the side of caution.
Using my Beryl as an example again, the model name includes "223", but the barrel's stamped "5.56". So, I just shoot 5.56 M855 and M193 in it. No reason to deviate for that gun.
(5) Where are you seeing *actual, not mild* steel core ammo to warrant concern? Mild and bi-metal steel cores aren't a worry. You likely won't shoot the gun enough to notice.
Actual steel core ammo isn't easy to find, let alone shoot in sufficient volume to warrant concern.
(6) With the Russian ammo ban taking effect, I also wouldn't overthink steel cased ammo. Steel cased is probably going to slowly leave the market. I love steel cased ammo and haven't seen any issues.
Another historical note - French 55gr ammo uses steel cases. The French adopted .223/5.56 in the mid-70s, before NATO really settled on a common cartridge. The rest of NATO uses brass, I think.
ReluctantDecoy
NES Member
He was talking about M855 steel core, not case, but you're most likely incidentally correct that the brass jacket on M855 prevents the steel core from touching the barrel lands/grooves. Also, steel case rounds are referring to the casing, not the jacket. You will see steel case rounds offered with both brass and bi-metal jacket bullets (possibly straight steel on older or rare comblock rounds).
"Bi-metal" jackets are a steel alloy. This alloy makes the jacket softer than the type of steel you'll find at the core of M855. Marginally worse on barrels than copper, but I don't think you'd really notice a difference unless subjecting your rifle to some type of Lucky Gunner torture test involving tens of thousands of rounds shot in succession. I don't think I've ever seen bi-metal M855. Not sure if such a thing exists.
SHOCKNAWE
NES Member
Outstanding dissertation
Sellior&Bellot 5.56x45 ammo was steel cased right into the 1990's. I still have a full ammo can of it.
The U.S. military produced steel cased ammo for many years.
I disagree with "steel cased ammo leaving the market". If anything, I think you'll see more steel cased ammo on the market in the future as the prices of copper continue to rise. Ammo producers/manufacturers (regardless of country) are going to work with what they can obtain, what has the highest profit margin and the cost of all raw materials involved.
Bottom line in any of this discussion, If your rifle will not digest steel cased ammo, your rifle needs to be fixed.
Steel cased ammo gauges EXACTLY the same as brass ammo.
Every AR that I built was tested/broken in with half a case of steel cased Wolf ammo in both 55g and 62gr. I've never had an issue with any malfunction so far.
I’ve had really bad experiences with accuracy of the green tip, granted it was in the Corps and they probably had it stored improperly
. Ppl think it’s AP, not even close. It provides a little more penetration but not much. I bought some a few years ago because I wanted to compare it shooting with my new AR’s as compared to the rattle cans I had in the Corps, same results. I compared it to Sigs elite performance and it was almost night and day. Green tip has its place, your definetily shooting it out of great barrels. Not to sound like a Sig fan boy but thier performance line of ammo in all calibers is the best in my opinion (here we go). Thier 308 175g is a f***in laser beam! I shoot various brands for range day and I also have a bunch for accuracy and any kind of Sunday Gunday competitions with the boys.
Just curious, do you shoot at steel with the green tip? I shoot a lot at steel and I don’t bother with the green tip because I don’t want to f*** up the steel hitting it over and over.
I’ve had really bad experiences with accuracy of the green tip, granted it was in the Corps and they probably had it stored improperly
I shoot various brands for range day and I also have a bunch for accuracy and any kind of Sunday Gunday competitions with the boys.
Just curious, do you shoot at steel with the green tip? I shoot a lot at steel and I don’t bother with the green tip because I don’t want to f*** up the steel hitting it over and over.
Greentip is minute of headshot ammo within 300m. Good enough for most target engagements.
The friction that exists with those steel rounds stacked in the magazine is to much. It can’t extract properly. This time a year it’s like sandpaper. Plus the steel has no give like brass when it is shot. That is why I wouldn’t shoot it with any AR besides piston driven.
Any body have a 7.62x39 AR and shoot steel through it? Don’t have one and I’m just curious.
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Funny enough, the majority of statements here are based on stuff they heard over and over but don't bother to check out. Here's some real-world information fo ya instead:
- There are NO size differences between the two cartridges(see differences bullet below). OAL is identical. The difference comes from how the military spec for AR barrels. To enable mass production, the spec gave a generous amount of error in how much free bore is allowed in order for the barrel to stay "in spec". Max NOGO is 1.4736in on 5.56 and 1.4696in on a 223. That's it!
- Max Pressure differences is a MYTH! It came out of the military issuing the original spec for max pressure using a method called EVPAT which is different from the method used by SAAMI. Later, the military updated the spec to use a pressure measuring method called SCATP which is identical to SAAMI. Using the SCATP method, the military specifies Max pressure for the cartridge as 55,114psi. SAAMI spec calls for 55,000psi. The difference is so negligible, it's not even worth discussing. So every time you hear someone spewing "556 is a stronger cartridge and will blow up your 223 gun", feel free to point and laugh at them!
- In US, when you go to your favorite gun store or Cabelas/BassPro, you will see 5.56 and 223 sitting on the shelf next to each other. 99% of the time, ammo marked as "5.56" is the green tip kind(M855 in military lingo), while anything else marked as 223 is regular. Occasionally, you will see 5.56 M193 at the store but it is just a marketing gimmick! Outside of US, say Europe, they don't use the 223 monikers and use M193 instead when selling the same ammo. Yep, this all boils down to the frigging box labels!
- The military did make a ONE change to the 223 cartridge spec: loosen the tolerance/error on the cartridge shoulder radius. The radius is the SAME between 5.56 and 223. The military spec is just written such as to accept ammo that would otherwise not be acceptable for civilian use. For some odd reason, Pentagon bean counters, don't seem to want ground pounders to have the best equipment or ammo.
- The ONLY notable difference between the two cartridges is how the primer pocket is treated during cartridge assembly. One is crimped and the other is flared. that's it! The flaring operation is done before the primer is seated while crimping is done after the primer is seated. Both are simple inserts at the bottom of the assembly machine and can be inserted/removed in a matter of seconds. This is why you still see both out there.
SHOCKNAWE
NES Member
I typically don’t shoot green tip, but like I said I had a bunch of old rounds laying around and wanted to properly get rid of them. When I replaced the steel plates in my PC I shot the shit out of them with the green tip so I didn’t care if it dinged them up or not and it did, never a problem with the ammo though.I’ve had really bad experiences with accuracy of the green tip, granted it was in the Corps and they probably had it stored improperly
I shoot various brands for range day and I also have a bunch for accuracy and any kind of Sunday Gunday competitions with the boys.
Just curious, do you shoot at steel with the green tip? I shoot a lot at steel and I don’t bother with the green tip because I don’t want to f*** up the steel hitting it over and over.
Sig puts out a good product, I got no problems with Sig fan boys lol
I actually bought a few cases of Sig 5.56 last year and it runs great. I only run 5.56 now so I’m unfamiliar with other calibers but when I was an AK guy I never ran brass through them just cat piss smelling Tula and Wolf lol
Good info, with some notes: .223 Remington was developed when Eugene Stoner approached Remington with his idea for .223 for the AR-15 in order to meet U.S. Army requirements. So, while it is now a commercial cartridge, it started life as a combined commercial/military cartridge.
Also, 5.56 isn’t limited to military cartridges now, it’s really just a higher pressure cartridge and there are a plethora of commercial loadings at 5.56 pressures.
The problem is there is no more 300m engagements today. There so might be the longer Biden is propped up
. This was a major gripe with all SOCOM guys kicking in doors. The velocity of that round, inaccuracy, and it’s core was giving them a lot of problems with over penetrating.
Do you have an AR10? Steel 308 will be fine through an M1a or bolt gun. Accuracy will probably suck.
That’s the SAAMI spec listed, but actual military 5.56 is usually about 60k psi when measured with the same mid-case equipment as SAAMI. This is according to Black Hills from their Mk262 development. Commercially loaded “5.56” is also loaded to a higher pressure than .223 offerings enough to observe a good bit extra FPS.
You still won’t blow up your .223 barrel, but there are higher pressure differences than just 114 psi.
Oh, and while M193 came out before the 5.56 spec, you’ll still see a couple hundred FPS bump in velocity from a factory .223 marked 55gr FMJ to a 5.56 marked M193. From a 20” barrel: 3071 fps vs 3306 fps. So it is not just a marketing g gimmick. It seems that modern loadings of M193 adhere to the 5k psi increase in pressure over .223. 223 Remington/ 5.56mm NATO barrel length and velocity: 26 inches to 6 inches
You say people don’t know what they’re talking about, but if you want actual real world information, you can trust Black Hills and the objective and quantifiable data from the link I posted.
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f*** that! STRIKE FIRST, STRIKE HARD, NO MERCY!
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