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Scumbag Factor at Gun Shows

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Gil

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I'm a new poster here, so maybe this will start a flame war, but here goes. I've been to tons of gun shows all over the place, but if there's one thing I'm getting sick of is the amount of Nazi shit I invariably see displayed at too many tables. It's supposed to be a gun show, not a Hitler rally. I was at the Concord gun show last weekend and saw about five or six tables that push a lot of German WW2 memorabilia, and not just WW2 era weapons and knives, but flags, pins arm bands and other items. Call me a liberal, but I don't see why it's so important to sell Nazi flags at a gun show at the expense of turning off interest in our hobby to the uninitiated.

I understand military collectibles are valuable and have their place; I served many years in uniform and can appreciate that aspect quite a bit. I really don't care if someone wants to collect it or even whether or not they think Hitler was great. But you know what? It's pretty distracting to the point of embarrassment to bring someone to a gun show who's curious about shooting only to have them put off by more than a few tables selling some genuine and reproduction Nazi memorabilia.

There's probably a place for that kind of thing, but it shouldn't be at gun shows. The shooting crowd can't afford too many negatives these days, as we all know. The best way to get women - particularly the good looking ones - and minorities into the shooting sports is to disassociate it from the negatives.

If I've offended anyone here, that isn't my intent, but if I notice this, a newbie at his first gun show notices it too. You may be one of the people into the history of it all, but it doesn't come across that way and doesn't do our cause or our sport any favors. Next time please do us a favor and leave it at home - you know nobody's buying it anyway.
 
Welcome to the Forum, Gil!

Thank goodness we live in a country where you can have any opinion you want. Feel free to express it here!

I've been to quite a few gun shows myself, and I understand your feeling about this. I see these displays purely from a historical aspect, rather than a political one. As a collector, I have to appreciate the quality, innovation and workmanship of the early 20th century German firearms manufacturers, despite what their leaders did during this time.

The Nazi memorabilia is collectible, and firearms collectors often like to display their firearms in company with these items to provide "background". So they do have a "decorative" function, even if we don't care for the politics behind the symbols. I do not see these types of displays as a celebration of Nazis (who killed millions of Jews), any more than I see a display of Russian memorabilia as a celebration of Stalin (who killed millions of his own people), or a display of American Cowboy memorabilia a celebration of the near extermination of the American Indian.

As for new folks attending shows - well, you're going to see wacko's selling their stuff no matter where you go. Just smile, and keep walking. It's a free country...

My 2 cents.
 
USMA-82: Well said.

Gil: The only thing I would add is that I would tend to disagree with your assessment that no one is buying the German stuff. If that were the case, the laws of supply and demand would dictate that sellers would stop selling it.
 
The last gun show I went to was the fiasco in Danvers. More knives, and unrelated crap than guns. And the guns that were there were overpriced. The vendors were surly also. The scumbags patrolling the show were rude, pushing their way through. I have respect for older folks, but when guys start stepping in front of me after I've been waiting patiently to take a look at something, I get pissed. I'm done with gun shows, thank you. Look for me at Four Seasons or online on gun show days. As for the Nazi crap, to each his own. I have no interest in it. I don't see it as a celebration of Nazi policy but can't understand the fascination other than as provenance enhancement for a collection of authentic German WWII firearms.
 
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I understand the historical factor behind the nazi items at guns shows.

But those symbols have tranformed into modern day symbols of hatred and racism. What we see as a dark period in history white supremacists and other racists see tools of their modern day trade.

And as such you get the "scum bag" factor at these shows.
 
I find going to a gun show and seeing a table/s full of completely non gun/shooting/military/hunting related items, like dolls, mechanics tools, candybars, beanie baby's, crochet items, BEEF JERKY ect.ect. far more irritating, particularly when I know that table space was limited and others with gun related items to sell were unable to purchase tables.

The German/Nazi stuff has far more of a place at the show than the above items. Recognize it for it's historical significance as intended and stop injecting a political aspect of it that doesn't exist.

Should Americans stop buying H&K guns too? H&K's largest customers are governments and police. Will H&K guns come to be the "swastikas" of tomorrow's generations?
 
USMA-82 said:
Welcome to the Forum, Gil!

Thank goodness we live in a country where you can have any opinion you want. Feel free to express it here!

I've been to quite a few gun shows myself, and I understand your feeling about this. I see these displays purely from a historical aspect, rather than a political one. As a collector, I have to appreciate the quality, innovation and workmanship of the early 20th century German firearms manufacturers, despite what their leaders did during this time.

The Nazi memorabilia is collectible, and firearms collectors often like to display their firearms in company with these items to provide "background". So they do have a "decorative" function, even if we don't care for the politics behind the symbols. I do not see these types of displays as a celebration of Nazis (who killed millions of Jews), any more than I see a display of Russian memorabilia as a celebration of Stalin (who killed millions of his own people), or a display of American Cowboy memorabilia a celebration of the near extermination of the American Indian.

As for new folks attending shows - well, you're going to see wacko's selling their stuff no matter where you go. Just smile, and keep walking. It's a free country...

My 2 cents.
Click to expand...

++1-WELL SAID!!!
 
Personally, I dislike gun shows. I don't like crowds to begin with and crowds peppered with whack jobs is not where I want to be. I also attended the Danver's fiasco and found it to be the epitomy of what I do not like about gun shows. I'm done. I am not any more offended by the Nazi stuff then a dozen other things. Gun shows are just grubby and offensive places.
Obviously they appeal to some folks and that is fine. I have no desire to change the shows, I just will not go any more. Certainly, I would never bring anyone who was just being introduced to shooting. Ten years ago I brought my wife to a gun show and it took 5 years after that to convince her to go shooting and to get her license. My wife is Jewish and from New York, a visit to a gun show just confirmed every redneck sterotype imaginable for her.
Now having said that there are lots of great people that love gun shows. My opinion is simply my opinion. I don't like rock concerts for the same reasons.
 
I tend to agree with Gil on this one. I tend to overlook the historical aspect of the Nazi stuff and see it as a symbol of hatred, etc. and it brings the whole show down. Especially when the only "historical stuff" a guy has is Nazi. I have also seen the stuff in some shops and it has turned me off.

I am by no means politically correct, or a liberal, or Jewish, but in today's day and age the Nazi symbol has transcended to a symbol that is simply unnacceptable.

Of course they have the right to sell it but I would also be OK with the show organizers saying it is not allowed.
 
Gil,

At the Marlboro show a couple of years ago, I saw a gun dealer from NJ - little old Jewish guy, complete with Yiddish accent, with a few tables full of WWII guns, including a bunch of Nazi-marked ones. I asked him how, as a Jew, he could deal in Nazi guns. His answer? (paraphrased) "Because they're dead, and I own their guns!" (in a medium-thick Yiddish accent, no less!).

I just thought about it for a few seconds and nodded; I can see his point.

That said, as a Jew, the ONLY way I'd ever buy any OTHER Nazi paraphernalia like, say, a flag, is to put it up at the hundred yard line and let folks fill it full of holes. (guns are different... a gun is still a gun, no matter what it started out as... and there's something very cool about being a Jew and owning a FORMER Nazi weapon. [devil])

And yeah, seeing the stuff there makes me twitch. I'm not sure what I'd do if I saw some bonehead actually WEARING any of it.
 
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I understand why some people feel it doesn't belong. Gun shows have always had their war artifacts, I mean afterall guns were invented to make the military win wars.

My grandfather fought in WWII and brought back some pretty neat Nazi stuff. Stuff that he removed from Germans that he put down. I would never sell it at a gun show as it has too much value for me. However I don't see anything wrong with war buffs selling stuff from at the time the most powerful military in the world.
 
derek said:
However I don't see anything wrong with war buffs selling stuff from at the time the most powerful military in the world.
Click to expand...
As a museum (public OR private) exhibit, I have no problem with Nazi gear. As I said before, if I actually SAW someone WEARING a Nazi uniform or a swastika, I'd be seriously wondering if this was someone it was safe to turn my back on.
 
I can see the Nazi stuff as an historic artifact if it is the real deal but any newly manufactured Nazi stuff (which is out there in abundance) is just pushing Nazi hate, same with the Soviet stuff (unless it is ammo).

Any dip shit wearing a Nazi uniform may accidentally trip while walking by me.
 
Mikey said:
Any dip shit wearing a Nazi uniform may accidentally trip while walking by me.
Click to expand...
"A riot is an ugly thing... and I think it's about time that we had one!!"

Yeah... anyone in a Nazi uniform near me might accidentally fall up the stairs... repeatedly.
 
And I have to wonder WHY they do so. Maybe I'll go to Springfield... wearing a yellow Mogen David (six pointed star) on my sleeve just to see what they do.
 
dbhn said:
I tend to agree with Gil on this one. I tend to overlook the historical aspect of the Nazi stuff and see it as a symbol of hatred, etc. and it brings the whole show down. Especially when the only "historical stuff" a guy has is Nazi. I have also seen the stuff in some shops and it has turned me off.

I am by no means politically correct, or a liberal, or Jewish, but in today's day and age the Nazi symbol has transcended to a symbol that is simply unnacceptable.

Of course they have the right to sell it but I would also be OK with the show organizers saying it is not allowed.
Click to expand...

In a nutshell .........
 
I have three Nazi-marked pistols; to the victors go the spoils. I also have no problem with collectors buying and selling authentic militaria.

What pisses me off are the clowns selling newly-made or reproduction Nazi stuff; especially the skinhead-looking guys that appear to be living the part. These are the guys that give us and our sport/hobby a bad name.

Think about it... if a writer from the Globe was there doing a story, what would be the subject? The history behind milsurp rifles? The skyrocketing price of ammo? Nope. He'd describe the Nazi guys while he wrote about "loopholes" and "assault weapons".
 
The Goose said:
Personally, I dislike gun shows. I don't like crowds to begin with and crowds peppered with whack jobs is not where I want to be. I also attended the Danver's fiasco and found it to be the epitomy of what I do not like about gun shows. I'm done. I am not any more offended by the Nazi stuff then a dozen other things. Gun shows are just grubby and offensive places.
Obviously they appeal to some folks and that is fine. I have no desire to change the shows, I just will not go any more. Certainly, I would never bring anyone who was just being introduced to shooting. Ten years ago I brought my wife to a gun show and it took 5 years after that to convince her to go shooting and to get her license. My wife is Jewish and from New York, a visit to a gun show just confirmed every redneck sterotype imaginable for her.
Now having said that there are lots of great people that love gun shows. My opinion is simply my opinion. I don't like rock concerts for the same reasons.
Click to expand...

I share your opinion.
 
pdm said:
I'm more offended by the guys that don't shower for a month before going to a show. Ugh.
Click to expand...

+1!
I hate slowly moving through a crowded aisle stuck behind some guy who smells like he's been running marathons for a week and never washed up.

As for the Nazi stuff, I don't mind it. Japanese, Russian, Nazi German, even modern day Middle East stuff, whatever, I even collect some of it. I enjoy having a piece of history to go along with a rifle from that era. Makes for great backdrops for gun photos.
 
My real problem with gun shows is lack of real CONTENT... eg, guns
and ammo, etc. It seems like at a lot of these shows they're
lugging around the same shit they were selling 6 months ago,
etc. Most of them don't have enough vendors selling guns
ammo and accessories, which is kind of "the point". Everytime
I go to one I find myself buying stuff from the same 2 or 3 people,
most of which I could probably buy things from outside of the
show environment anyways.


-Mike
 
Clarification

EddieCoyle, you said it in a nutshell:

[Think about it... if a writer from the Globe was there doing a story, what would be the subject? The history behind milsurp rifles? The skyrocketing price of ammo? Nope. He'd describe the Nazi guys while he wrote about "loopholes" and "assault weapons".]

It's true enough that Stalin killed more than Hitler, long after WW2 was over, and nobody thinks much about Pol Pot's Cambodian killing fields, and of course, you'd be laughed out of the room if you suggested that Mao Tse Tung directed massive, wholesale slaughter by famine of 30 million plus Chinese people with the "Great Leap Forward" of the late 1950s thru early 1960s. it's the Nazi paraphernalia which gets all the attention from gun haters who gleefully write books about it.

I'm not averse to the historical value of genuine history and I'm the last person who wants a revisionist view. I've had discussions with my step-grandfather, who served in German units including the Estonian SS after the Germans chased out the Russians and took over his country. His brother was taken by the Russians and forced to serve in their army, and he hasn't seen his brother since the war ended. His brother probably perished in the Gulag, but I don't ask about that. Though my step-grandfather was forced to wear a Nazi uniform, and admits it was better than being forced into Russian service, he's the last person who would want to see the swastika rise again, especially not over Estonia, now free after Soviet domination finally ended in 1991.

Once again, I'm not including actual guns and daggers in the description of what's obviously offensive to most people, but the tables of crap with the skinhead types polluting the atmosphere, (sometimes by wearing it, other times with their BO). Believe it or not, I saw far more guns and a lot less of Nazi-fawning at the NC gun shows I used to go to while at Ft Bragg. Sure, they always had tables with "redneck" Confederate flags, but more often than not it was a genuine civil war aficionado who didn't belong to the Klan. Most were very salt of the earth and a far cry from the closet-skinhead types.

I am always willing to give people the benefit of the doubt, so while at the Concord show, I looked at each display to see if anybody posted a standard disclaimer, such as: "Although we sell replica/genuine artefacts from WW2 Germany, we do not condone or promote Nazi politics or ideology" or something to that effect. I didn't see a single merchant who did this, and I got the feeling from some of them this wasn't by accident. This might seem trivial, but to the uninitiated a statement like that in plain view can possibly avoid someone getting the wrong message about the vendor - and the rest of us.
 
dwarven1 said:
"A riot is an ugly thing... and I think it's about time that we had one!!"

Yeah... anyone in a Nazi uniform near me might accidentally fall up the stairs... repeatedly.
Click to expand...

Same goes for anyone wearing other forms of "[insert group here] power" garb. Until there is an intolerance for all forms of "I'm a member of such and such race, and I'm gonna wear it on my t shirt and pretty much state that my group/race/religion etc. is the best and f*** you if you don't like it blah blah blah" clothing and the like, I
refuse to get upset over these neo-Nazi idiots. We have far too many other wack jobs roaming the streets in plain view in far greater numbers, that can (and do) commit harm and mean badly to most if not all they come across.
 
Like it has been said..you can pick out ANY thing and depending on your view have a problem..or not.

My mother, her 2 sisters and my grandparents were ran out of there home by the SS.. Told "you have 10 minutes to grab your stuff and go. If we see you we will shoot you!" Opa(grandfather in german) was taken and placed in a camp..Because he refused to fight for them! A life of living for a year or so in the underground to escape. And I, after all the stories, have no need to feel anything for the armbands and such. It is not worth my time to bring attention to it. I wish no one would ..so it may become a dead item.( but Ross is right ..give me a flag at 100 yards..and i will light that thing up...until the barrel is cherry red)
 

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