Self Defense Insurance - How many have it?

[Rob Boudrie]

He said clearly CCW Safe is a paid sponsor.

I missed that - thanks.

 

[Matt_SERE]

I missed that - thanks.

He certainly does ramble sometimes.

Cued:


View: https://youtu.be/d8o5MfSPuC0?t=1479

 

[Coda]

To me CCW is basically like any other insurance, it’s a bet.

You are spending money to minimize your risks. If we are talking homeowners insurance, then you have the risk that your house may burn down or be robbed. You are willing to pay a premium to an insurance company to pay you back for your losses if something like this occurs. You are just minimizing your potential losses by making a bet on the bad occurrence to happen. If you do not have insurance, you are making a bet it won't happen.

With CCW your are betting on the possibility that you will need to shoot somebody. So if you are often out and about in high crime areas then it is probably worth it. But for someone like me who is a retired hermit and rarely goes into high crime areas I am betting that I will not have to shoot anybody.

The highest likelihood of me having to shoot somebody is if they break into my house when I am home. Because I live in a very remote area in a house that is not visible from the road. If that were to happen I don’t need CCW even in this liberal shit hole of MA.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Andrew Branca appears to be a competent attorney, but he presents the info as if he is arguing a case for CCWsafe.

• He talks of the problem with USCCA not paying for what they claim is not self defense. Although the USCCA contract states "self defense" it is not made obviously clear they interpret as giving themselves an "out", though the federal court certainly found that this clause favored USCCA. Gee, I saw that the first time I read the contract, along with the "these terms may be changed at any time" clause in the USCCA contract. When presented with a contract with ambiguous terms, I always assume they will be interpreted in favor of the other party as I know those terms were not included for my benefit.
  
  
• He fails to mention that CCWsafe has a similar "if we don't agree it was self defense we don't have to pay" clause (note their repeated use of the term "Recognized self defense..."), but it is indeed a bit more obvious than the implication in the USCCA contract, so he does have a point.
  
  
• He defended the CCWsafe limit by talking about the "reputation" of CCWsafe. To me, this is not unlike telling someone to ignore the find print in a car dealership sales contract, but examine the reputation of the dealer to see if it will actually enforce the contract clause that is to your disadvantage. Really? Such advice from an attorney?
  
  
• He also fails to mention that this would never have even reached that point, or got the initial $50K, with CCWsafe since that plan excludes intra-familial events.
  
  
• This is "selective presentation of information" to advocate for his side (CCWsafe) is more like an attorney advocating in court, or an advertisement, than consumer information. All info favorable to CCWsafe was included; anything detrimental to CCWSafe is omitted. (Note he uses this technique in his response to me in the Youtube comments as well)
  
  
• When I call him out on this in a comment on the above linked YouTube, he does not address the issue I ask about (other than to repeat the partial information in his original presentation) and resorts to insults ("find an adult to explain it to you") that are unbecoming a member of the bar. Find the comments and Judge for yourself on this one.
  
  
• I believe that any mention of the discount code should mention if he gets a commission for doing you this favor. Note that he did not respond to my question about this in his YouTube comment reply. Others may reasonable conclude that the mention of the CCWsafe sponsorship of the video is sufficient notice. In my opinion, the later is similar to what he is assusing USCCA of doing.
  
  
• I have not been able to find any ccw legal plan that does not limit it to "self defense", and all leave it ambiguous as to who makes that determination. I am also not aware of any legal plan that makes a full accounting of their claims paying ability available to prospective purchasers. Remember there is no equivalent to AMBest rating the solvency of these firms.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

With CCW your are betting on the possibility that you will need to shoot somebody. So if you are often out and about in high crime areas then it is probably worth it. But for someone like me who is a retired hermit and rarely goes into high crime areas I am betting that I will not have to shoot anybody.

You are also making a bet that the underwrite of the "insurance" will pay your claim.

 

[Matt_SERE]

Andrew Branca appears to be a competent attorney, but he presents the info as if he is arguing a case for CCWsafe.

I agree. The video does have the "This channel got money or free things to make this video" banner at the beginning per YT rules.

I have followed Andrew since the Zimmerman trial and he has changed some since the publicity of the Rittenhouse trial. He deals with trolls a lot on YouTube since doing live videos, along with his weekly content. He has dropped all consultations except for his LOSD Members or CCWsafe Members. I think he is doing okay $ working with them. Just ASSuming.

Matt

 

[Broc]

Andrew Branca appears to be a competent attorney, but he presents the info as if he is arguing a case for CCWsafe.

• He talks of the problem with USCCA not paying for what they claim is not self defense. Although the USCCA contract states "self defense" it is not made obviously clear they interpret as giving themselves an "out", though the federal court certainly found that this clause favored USCCA. Gee, I saw that the first time I read the contract, along with the "these terms may be changed at any time" clause in the USCCA contract. When presented with a contract with ambiguous terms, I always assume they will be interpreted in favor of the other party as I know those terms were not included for my benefit.
  
  
• He fails to mention that CCWsafe has a similar "if we don't agree it was self defense we don't have to pay" clause (note their repeated use of the term "Recognized self defense..."), but it is indeed a bit more obvious than the implication in the USCCA contract, so he does have a point.
  
  
• He defended the CCWsafe limit by talking about the "reputation" of CCWsafe. To me, this is not unlike telling someone to ignore the find print in a car dealership sales contract, but examine the reputation of the dealer to see if it will actually enforce the contract clause that is to your disadvantage. Really? Such advice from an attorney?
  
  
• He also fails to mention that this would never have even reached that point, or got the initial $50K, with CCWsafe since that plan excludes intra-familial events.
  
  
• This is "selective presentation of information" to advocate for his side (CCWsafe) is more like an attorney advocating in court, or an advertisement, than consumer information. All info favorable to CCWsafe was included; anything detrimental to CCWSafe is omitted. (Note he uses this technique in his response to me in the Youtube comments as well)
  
  
• When I call him out on this in a comment on the above linked YouTube, he does not address the issue I ask about (other than to repeat the partial information in his original presentation) and resorts to insults ("find an adult to explain it to you") that are unbecoming a member of the bar. Find the comments and Judge for yourself on this one.
  
  
• I believe that any mention of the discount code should mention if he gets a commission for doing you this favor. Note that he did not respond to my question about this in his YouTube comment reply. Others may reasonable conclude that the mention of the CCWsafe sponsorship of the video is sufficient notice. In my opinion, the later is similar to what he is assusing USCCA of doing.
  
  
• I have not been able to find any ccw legal plan that does not limit it to "self defense", and all leave it ambiguous as to who makes that determination. I am also not aware of any legal plan that makes a full accounting of their claims paying ability available to prospective purchasers. Remember there is no equivalent to AMBest rating the solvency of these firms.

I think the only good point he makes in that entire video is that when the court allowed the self defense argument to be used for defense, USCCA should have paid.

Everything else, I had the same thoughts you had.

 

[Coda]

You are also making a bet that the underwrite of the "insurance" will pay your claim.

Yup, good point I missed that one............

 

[Rob Boudrie]

The way I see the case:

- USCCA agreed to fund self-defense cases
- USCCA agreed to pay in advance
- The formal determination (conviction) it was not self defense came well after USCCA refused to honor its pay up front obligation
- By apply events occurring after USCCAs shirked its obligation as he basis for the claim denial, the rewarded USCCA for not honoring its commitment.
- The only way to rationalize this is application of the "cuz guns" judicial doctrine

 

[safetyfirst2125]

My takeaway from this is: make damn sure it’s self defense and even then, 50/50 chance you’re screwed if ANY of a thousand things than can go sideways do.

Odds of walking away smelling like a rose without losing your house in MA with our DA’s for a justified shooting: maybe 10%.

 

[TOM1960]

Building burns down it gets replaced by HOA. I keep all valuables out of state in a safe deposit box. I have one .22 bolt action rifle, one .223 bolt action rifle and one 870 12 gauge in a Vline closet vault in-wall gun locker. The 870 is loaded with slugs and buckshot for home defense. Never owned an LTC in my life; FID only since 1978. I never purchased a gun in MA and never plan to. Everything here gets recorded. Out of state rifle and shotgun purchases don't. A prosecutor could argue that you could walk away from an assailant or loudmouth a**h*** troublemaker on the street. Home invasion? The attacker came to you. Self defense much easier to prove, even in this socialist state.

HOA does not cover criminal defenses, and *may* cover liability for an accidental shooting or one intended to protect persons or property.

Check on your "HOA insurance as part of your condo fee". This kind of insurance generally covers the public areas/external walls/etc., and liability judgements against the association. It does not cover damages to individual units, theft from individual units, liability judgements (or defense against) for claims made against condo owners as individuals. Depending on the policy, it *may* cover individuals sued in their capacity as trustee or board members of the association.

If you find out otherwise, please let me know as I will have some shopping to do.

 

[ffej ruedorb]

Keep in mind this is from January 3, one of the comments says CCW Safe made some updates.

Based on this, and assuming the additional research I will do doesn't come up with anything bad, I will go with CCW SAFE and dump USCCA.

https://www.obsidiandefense.com/uscca-vs-us-lawshield-vs-ccw-safe/[/URL

Thanks for sharing this. now I know why my login on US Lawshield says "Locked"
Because they don't support mass anymore. unless this video is not jan3 this year and its from before they covered mass


Did you go ultimate or defender ?[/url]

 

[Broc]

Thanks for sharing this. now I know why my login on US Lawshield says "Locked"
Because they don't support mass anymore. unless this video is not jan3 this year and its from before they covered mass


Did you go ultimate or defender ?[/url]

Didn't change yet.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Building burns down it gets replaced by HOA. I keep all valuables out of state in a safe deposit box. I have one .22 bolt action rifle, one .223 bolt action rifle and one 870 12 gauge in a Vline closet vault in-wall gun locker. The 870 is loaded with slugs and buckshot for home defense. Never owned an LTC in my life; FID only since 1978. I never purchased a gun in MA and never plan to. Everything here gets recorded. Out of state rifle and shotgun purchases don't. A prosecutor could argue that you could walk away from an assailant or loudmouth a**h*** troublemaker on the street. Home invasion? The attacker came to you. Self defense much easier to prove, even in this socialist state.

Only to the exterior facing walls of the units; unit interiors are the responsibility of each owner in most cases.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

There is another issue with CCWSafe. It covers use of guns where you are "allowed" to have them. Their published terms do not describe precisely what this means. Are you "allowed" (under their terms) to have a gun in a business with a no guns sign in a state that does not give such signs any binding legal authority? What about a place like TX where such signs often don't comply with the standard to give them "legally binding signage" status. What about places with "no guns" policies that the person has not been given notice of (CCWsafe counsel could, not saying they would, argue the gun carrier could have inquired before entry), etc.

 

[AHM]

Only to the exterior facing walls of the units; unit interiors are the responsibility of each owner in most cases.

Recall the "best friend's sister's Atlanta apartment" anecdote.

 

[DavidC77]

I tried to find a list of MA lawyers that work with USCCA, but failed.

Do you have a list?

Out of all the insurances, they seem like the best, but I want to see who they work with.

If you are a USCCA Member, they have a page that you can go to and it lists all the Lawyers...

They actually "assign" you a Lawyer once you join if I remember correctly...

EDIT: My bad, I remembered afterwards that they have a list that you go to to pick a Lawyer in your area if you want Lawyer Help...
You still call the "Emergency Line" if you were in a shooting...

.

 

[DavidC77]

I've had USCCA for years...

They have a "year" price that you can pay once a year, it's cheaper that way...

I also have it set up as "autopay"... That way I don't forget to renew it and not have it when I might need it...

 

[Broc]

If you are a USCCA Member, they have a page that you can go to and it lists all the Lawyers...

They actually "assign" you a Lawyer once you join if I remember correctly...

I got past that a while back. I chose a known NES lawyer based on several recommendations.

They allow you to choose who they call.

I wonder if CCW Safe is the same. I need to stop slacking and take a look.

 

[weekendracer]

Best bet is to practice judgment proofing. Place your primary asset, your home, in an irrevocable trust to protect it from lien/levy and seizure from judgment creditors. Do the same for large bank accounts. Collection lawyers are looking for an easy payday. Put up as many barriers as possible to prevent it.

It's more about staying out of jail for me anyway. I doubt any of that would matter if you really screwed the pooch and shot the wrong person. Anything else pretty much gets washed away when you are found to have had a 'good shoot'. Unless you have OJ money.

Having a lawyer show up who is vetted in some way, rather than just going to the yellow pages while using the 'public' phone in a jail.

 

[Broc]

It's more about staying out of jail for me anyway. I doubt any of that would matter if you really screwed the pooch and shot the wrong person. Anything else pretty much gets washed away when you are found to have had a 'good shoot'. Unless you have OJ money.

Having a lawyer show up who is vetted in some way, rather than just going to the yellow pages while using the 'public' phone in a jail.

You still need to keep money, how else will you pay people in jail for protection? (Or does that only happen in movies?)

 

[ffej ruedorb]

US lawshield does cover mass. That obsidian defense insurance breakdown shared must be fairly old or biased.
A year ago I used my USL membership to contact a lawyer and ask the old question of holding onto someone’s firearms because they saw a RO shit storm coming. I got attorney Jason guida to call me back and answer the question pretty quick. He put on the seminar I attended at Troy city tactical for USL which broke down insurance realistically. At the end of the day it comes down making good choices, money for firearms lawyer and money for bail. No matter what happens if you brandish or pull the trigger your ltc is in jeopardy and your in for some hard times. Insurance seems necessary in this state and ever evolving times we are living in.

 

[safetyfirst2125]

I wonder if “brandishing” would be covered by these guys if you had a legit encounter, saved the life of a little old lady about to get killed by a thug with a tire iron, you draw, shout orders to put down the weapon, he complies, and runs away, and some Karen calls the popo “man with a gun!”

BLM DA charges you with some BS charge cuz guns bad.

Would these companies cover your legal defense?

 

[ffej ruedorb]

I wonder if “brandishing” would be covered by these guys if you had a legit encounter, saved the life of a little old lady about to get killed by a thug with a tire iron, you draw, shout orders to put down the weapon, he complies, and runs away, and some Karen calls the popo “man with a gun!”

BLM DA charges you with some BS charge cuz guns bad.

Would these companies cover your legal defense?

That’s the type of scenario answered in the USL seminar. And the answer to that situation more than likely would end in you needing legal council. As you were leading up to, Your now the bad guy with a gun in the Brockton Walmart parking lot playing captain savahoe stopping a domestic dispute.
I’m not sure if USL would cover that. The idea of the seminar was to teach how to make the rite choice and not brandish

 

[safetyfirst2125]

That’s the type of scenario answered in the USL seminar. And the answer to that situation more than likely would end in you needing legal council. As you were leading up to, Your now the bad guy with a gun in the Brockton Walmart parking lot playing captain savahoe stopping a domestic dispute.

But would USCCA or CCW Safe cover the legal tab?

 

[ffej ruedorb]

But would USCCA or CCW Safe cover the legal tab?

if I remember rite probably not. And I think the answer is because Massachusetts. Unless your cornered and your life is in legitimate danger you can’t go on the offensive. No stand your ground laws in mass either. You are supposed to run like the coward of the county

This state blows.

Being able to ask a lawyer if I could legally hold onto a friends firearms justified that years insurance payment as far as I am concerned.

 

[safetyfirst2125]

if I remember rite probably not. And I think the answer is because Massachusetts. Unless your cornered and your life is in legitimate danger you can’t go on the offensive. No stand your ground laws in mass either. You are supposed to run like the coward of the county

This state blows.

Being able to ask a lawyer if I could legally hold onto a friends firearms justified that years insurance payment as far as I am concerned.

In the example above the draw is to save the life of another about to be murdered with a tire iron, so not on the offensive.

But yeah it’s probably a toss up whether these companies would cover legal fees in that situation.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

In the example above the draw is to save the life of another about to be murdered with a tire iron, so not on the offensive.

But yeah it’s probably a toss up whether these companies would cover legal fees in that situation.

The key point is that the deck is stacked so that as a practical matter, it is their choice, not their obligation.

 

[Buck F]

Never even crossed my mind. Homeowner's insurance is part of my HOA condo fee. Someone invades my home, they are receiving a 12 gauge shotgun blast from my Remington 870. Period!

Tom, if you're ever involved in a shooting, this statement will be used against you in court and no liability insurance policy anywhere will provide coverage for you no matter how legit the shoot when this statement surfaces.

Some things you never ever put in writing even if you think it's on an anonymous gun forum. You shoot someone and prosecutors will conduct discovery and find every online post you have ever made and use it against you.

HOA does not cover criminal defenses, and *may* cover liability for an accidental shooting or one intended to protect persons or property.

Check on your "HOA insurance as part of your condo fee". This kind of insurance generally covers the public areas/external walls/etc., and liability judgements against the association. It does not cover damages to individual units, theft from individual units, liability judgements (or defense against) for claims made against condo owners as individuals. Depending on the policy, it *may* cover individuals sued in their capacity as trustee or board members of the association.

If you find out otherwise, please let me know as I will have some shopping to do.

Yup

Building burns down it gets replaced by HOA. I keep all valuables out of state in a safe deposit box. I have one .22 bolt action rifle, one .223 bolt action rifle and one 870 12 gauge in a Vline closet vault in-wall gun locker. The 870 is loaded with slugs and buckshot for home defense. Never owned an LTC in my life; FID only since 1978. I never purchased a gun in MA and never plan to. Everything here gets recorded. Out of state rifle and shotgun purchases don't. A prosecutor could argue that you could walk away from an assailant or loudmouth a**h*** troublemaker on the street. Home invasion? The attacker came to you. Self defense much easier to prove, even in this socialist state.

Only to the exterior facing walls of the units; unit interiors are the responsibility of each owner in most cases.

The HOA condo fee most certainly does not include homeowners insurance. The HOA fee includes the Condo Association Master Insurance policy that includes coverage for the physical structure of the building and liability for the Condo Association or HOA only. It may or may not cover the interior walls, flooring, fixtures, improvements & betterments of your unit depending on the Condo Association Agreement. Many Condo Associations do not cover from the "studs in" meaning the unit owner is responsible from the interior surface of the studs, anything above the surface of the basement floor and anything below the inside surface of the roof. This means the unit owner is responsible for the interior walls, flooring, fixtures, permanently installed cabinetry, major permanently installed appliances including boiler/furnace, HVAC, etc. (if each unit has their own HVAC as some do). Also, many associations make the unit owner responsible for any improvements & betterments which means any added walls, upgraded flooring, cabinets, countertops etc. might not be covered by the association policy even if the association covers from the "studs in". The association agreement will specify what the Association is required to insure and what the unit owner is responsible for in the event of a loss The Condo Association usually doesn't require the unit owners to carry their own insurance and if there's a total loss, the unit owner may be looking at a rebuilt unit which is essentially rough framed and they're responsible for the rest.

The Condo Association policy doesn't cover your contents or your personal liability and should never, ever, ever be considered as homeowners insurance for the unit owner. A typical Unit Owner's policy (also called an H06) usually costs around $200-$300 and rarely goes over $400-$500 unless you have a lot of contents coverage or you need to cover the entire interior.

I write a lot of condo association master policies and I always include an "all-In" endorsement which supersedes what the condo docs say, this way the Master Policy covers walls, fixtures, flooring, improvements & betterments. Also, most larger condo associations have deductibles in the $5k-$25K range which the unit owner is responsible for (even if it has all-in coverage).

Sorry, don't mean to hijack the thread and tried to make this as brief as I could.

 

[DavidC77]

I got past that a while back. I chose a known NES lawyer based on several recommendations.

They allow you to choose who they call.

I wonder if CCW Safe is the same. I need to stop slacking and take a look.

My bad, I remembered afterwards that they have a list that you go to to pick a Lawyer in your area if you want Lawyer Help...
You still call the "Emergency Line" if you were in a shooting...

.