smelting,burners,high pressure vs low pressure....temps

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mac1911

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Ok when I was a younger kid I would help my dad and his friends smelt lead for fishing weights, shotgun slugs and ingots. I guess some of them made bullets also. They would do it in the unit in the picture below. They would do this once a year just before it got to cool in the fall. When I was about 16 they stopped doing it. I think mainly is that they where making better money and less time??? Now the unit laid unused. Then I gave it away to a NES member. It was just to big for me to use @ my home.

Anyway. The small unit I was using lately to process small amounts has crapped out. Now I thought about building my own.

Burners : Now I need to decide to go high pressure or low ?
Does the higher pressure and extra fuel used balance out in time to bring the lead up to temp?
Do you go stainless or cast for the burner.

My last burner was a el cheapo turkey fryer set up. Not very fast on heat up.

Also a last note: I have read about lead fumes....how does lead fume would it have to reach boiling temp to become gas? lead boils @ 2800' or so?

Also a lot of talk about ZINC ruining lead batches?
OK so lead melts @ 621'F Zinc@ 787'F so to reduce Zinc contamination just keep your temps below 650'F is that not correct.

When melting wheel weights

Wheel weights have tin,antimony and arsenic added to the lead.
tin melts @ 450' antimony melts @ 1166'

what keeps the antimony from being scimmed off with the dross ?

I have not had many problems thus far in my ignot makeing and I sold off many pounds in 08 ealry 09 when lead was up. I did not here any bad feed back from the few people I sold to that where casting bullets?
 
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Something like the burner listed below, 185,000BTU, will provide plenty of heat to smelt lead. That burner and a big cast iron dutch oven will work great. I use a similar homemade burner and a cast iron pot to smelt, always works great. What really matters in a burner is the BTU output. The more BTU's the faster it will melt lead. I would suggest a smaller electric furnace like a Lee Production pot or Lee Precision Melter for casting, as it will be cleaner and produce better bullets and also easier to maintain the proper temperature.

http://www.amazon.com/Bayou-Classic-SP1-Jet-Cooker/dp/B0002913MI/ref=pd_sbs_ol_5

I am not a metallurgist by any means, but from my experience, if you have zinc in your lead it's junk, and keeping a lower temp isn't going to make any difference. If it's mixed in with the lead, it will melt at the same time the lead does.

As far as keeping the lead and antimony mixed, you need to flux the pot with a ball of beeswax or similar bullet lube to get it to alloy and stir it a bit before you start skimming dross off. That way you don't skim away all the antimony. And since the antimony is alloyed prior to you melting the lead, it will simply raise the melt temp of the lead slightly rather than melting at a different temp. The only time antimony will melt at a different temp, is when you try to smelt a bar of pure antimony with lead. That's why most people buy pre alloyed lead/antimony, as it's very difficult to get the antimony to melt into lead.

Lead emits fumes as soon as it's melted, so you need to be in a well ventilated area or have an exhaust fan running at all times.

I don't know it all, but I hope this helps a bit. I'm sure others will chime in as well. Duke in Maine would probably be a good person to ask for advice on this, I know he casts a lot.

Check out Ammosmith.com, the guy has a ton of good videos on casting and reloading and his own forum as well, though I have never looked at his forum.
 
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Kenny474 said:
...
I am not a metallurgist by any means,....Lead emits fumes as soon as it's melted, ....
Click to expand...

Right and wrong.

The boiling point of lead is 3164.0 °F.
Lead does not produce "fumes" when it is melted unless you exceed the boiling point.
Typical lead melting equipment couldn't get halfway to the boiling point.
The oxides of lead will float to the top of the mix when the lead is melted.
The oxides of lead can become airborn and are to be avoided.
Ordinary caution in handling and disposing of the oxides is highly recommended.

Proper fluxing can return most but usually not all of the oxides to the melt.
Fluxing with beeswax is primitive and nearly barbaric.
The beeswax produces a huge volume of unpleasant smoke.
If you get melted beesway in your mould cavity, you won't make any good bullets until it is all cleaned out.
If you stir your metal with an ordinary, DRY pine stick, you will get excellent results.
The first time that you use the stick it will smoke a bit.
The outside of the stick will be converted to charcoal (carbon), which is a nearly perfect flux.
Don't leave the stick in the melt for too long or it will catch fire.
After the stick is nicely carboned up, it produces virtually no smoke.
The residue from fluxing with the stick will be a teaspoon or so of gray ash left on top of the melt after each pot full.
I've used the same stick for a couple of years and it is about just an inch shorter than when I started.

Jack
 
If you light the lube with a match it doesn't smoke, and many still use that method. I have been casting for a long time, and have never had an issue with lube in my mold. I have used the pine stick method, and it does work. I prefer bullet lube, as I have had better results with it when smelting. I use the pine stick for casting, but the OP was asking about smelting, so I gave my method for smelting.

And if you feel there are no fumes produced when smelting lead, than by all means go smelt in an enclosed area. Let me know how you feel after you do it for a while. You may not get lead fumes, but there are other things that become airborne when melting lead, so ventilation is highly recommended. As you also said, lead oxide floats, and will most likely get into the air. So essentially you will have lead fumes that you don't want to be breathing. I never stated that you will get "lead fumes", only that you will get fumes, especially when smelting wheel weights or other scrap lead.
 
thanks guys, I have always been careful as the "other fumes" are a issue. I clean out my wheel weights and I also clean them with a simple soap and water mix and rinse. This gets most of the grease and other crap off. I let them dry for a week or 2 then I melt down a batch. I never add wheel weights to molten lead.....learned that years ago with my dad.

the more i read the more questions i come up with.

like what is a good respirator filter to use? something I have not seen discussed

my current gear is a welders coat, 3m respirator, safety glasses, full facesheild, welders gloves. Isolated location with full open ventilation....out side.
 
mac1911 said:
thanks guys, I have always been careful as the "other fumes" are a issue. I clean out my wheel weights and I also clean them with a simple soap and water mix and rinse. This gets most of the grease and other crap off. I let them dry for a week or 2 then I melt down a batch. I never add wheel weights to molten lead.....learned that years ago with my dad.

the more i read the more questions i come up with.

like what is a good respirator filter to use? something I have not seen discussed

my current gear is a welders coat, 3m respirator, safety glasses, full facesheild, welders gloves. Isolated location with full open ventilation....out side.
Click to expand...

I have been very cautious of fumes since I got really sick casting in my wood shop a few years back. Now I have several fans running with cross ventilation from the windows out the garage door. I was young and dumb and didn't think about what I was doing. Ended up puking for a few hours and felt like crap for a couple days, not fun at all. Easier to use ventilation.

As far as respirator cartridges, they should say on the package what they will protect you from, if not, call the manufacturer.
 
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Kenny I will only do the raw smelting out doors, its to messy and stinks to do inside. Maybe a small casting inside with ventilation.

Maybe I should ask this

What should the filter pack say.
My current one....package reads Organic Vapor/acid gas cartridge also says lead on container but the chart in the filter pack 3M # 60923 does not list lead ?
 
I would think what you are using should be ok. As long as the area is ventilated, I wouldn't worry, and your definitely safe outside.. I use 3M disposable welding respirators that I acquired from my old job, as they were available and cheap.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0..._m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=16K2GJJ9PY2Z3342JBA3

Wearing a respirator isn't really necessary, as most people don't, but I take extra precautions with most everything. I was the idiot kid who never used the proper safety equipment with anything I did, and ended up in the hospital or sick or beat up because of it plenty of times, and also have a bit of hearing loss at 28. I figure if I'm a little more careful now, maybe I can make up for some of it.
 
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Smelting should always be done outdoors because of fumes not from the lead itself, but from oil/grease/bits of plastic that are mixed in (especially with wheelweights). Also it is necessary to smelt outdoors because you will need to flux the mixture to prevent "pepper" in your bullets. After the lead is smelting, skimmed of dross and fluxed however, it is very clean to remelt when you are in the final casting stage and that can be done indoors if you so choose. YMMV

BTW, just be sure that whichever setup you choose it does not run excessively over temperature, you won't want other metals such as Zinc to melt into your mix and contaminate it.
 
As soon as my wheel weight lead gets to the "oatmeal" stage, I start turning down the heat, because I know that the magic temp is just ahead. I did a big batch yesterday, outside (in the fine weather!), and spent extra time extracting dross. Stirring and fluxing for longer than you think you should will give best results.

I'll be doing a write up on FLUXING for the cast workshop.

If you are interested in casting, I would urge you to attend the workshop. It will cover everything in pretty good detail. Everyone, even experienced casters, will learn something new that day.

Link for the cast workshop:
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...Cast-Bullet-Workshop-Shirley-Rod-and-Gun-Club

Entrance fee for attending is 20 pounds of wheel weights or range lead. You will take home your lead, either in bullets or ingots, or some combination of both.
 
Im in the process of building a mini version of the smelter pictured, about 100lb capacity. Thats about all I can process easily. I will be building it with free stuff so it may take a little while.
Still unsure if I should go with a high preasure or low preasure burner? It will be simular as haveing a decent size Pre warmer shelf.
 
mac1911 said:
Im in the process of building a mini version of the smelter pictured, about 100lb capacity. Thats about all I can process easily. I will be building it with free stuff so it may take a little while.
Still unsure if I should go with a high preasure or low preasure burner? It will be simular as haveing a decent size Pre warmer shelf.
Click to expand...

High pressure burner is the only way to go..... I have 3 smelting setups, one is low pressure (Bass Pro) and the other two are high pressure (Bayou Classic)..... The high pressure burners melt the lead much faster and as long as you skim anything that does not easily melt you should have minimal chance of zinc betting into your smelt..... High pressure makes a huge difference in how much lead I can smelt in an afternoon..... Have also found when it's cold out the low pressure burner doesn't generate enough BTU's to melt a reasonably sized batch....
 
Doubtful that we'll have any video, per se. You'll miss a great event, with lots of NEW techniques, equipment, and processing.
I'm even bringing my swage set up that makes .40 S&W jacketed bullets out of 9mm cases stuffed with 124 grain cast cores.

mac1911 said:
I cant make it to the class......maybe a video for purchase?
Click to expand...
 
If you go to Dick Sporting Goods they have a very nice 2 burner stove made by Camp Chef or Fire Chef I can't remember which. It cost about a hundred buck runs off a 20 propane and will generate 33,000 btus per burner.
This is the stove I use and it will melt lead in short order,it's a really nice stove and quite portable. If you are in my neck of the woods sometime shoot me a PM and I will show you my set up. I've been casting my own for the better part of 30 yrs I think you might like my setup.
 
Between my job, wife working nights and baby sitters . Realistically I get 3 days a month to do things IF those 3 days are not already planned. I am useing most of my days for ATA trap shooting.
 
I remember when my life was THAT busy. Now, my kids are out on their own, and I have time for my hobbies.

The workshop isn't a classroom type thing. It's a more INFORMAL setting with people who cast sharing what they know, and people who never have getting to use the equipment that we bring. The only way that you learn to do this well is to do it. Any video of this event would be mostly boring, since a lot of it will be people stirring wheel weights, and waiting for lead to melt.

But, for those attending, it should be a fun day, and we will cover the subject beginning to end, an then beyond, with swaging techniques also discussed.
 
I scored a high preasure BayouClasic at a yardsale- burner,20psi hose with regulator and a tank with unknown amount of fuel........25 bucks. They used it once for a party to boil lobster.
I did a small batch of lead flashing(15lbs) Im so glad my old low preasure burner crapped out. Like night and day.
 
Over the weekend, I did 250 pounds of pure lead, which was salvaged from a local PD's indoor range. Range lead. I was so excited about having it to process, that I forgot to keep 20 pounds of it aside for the cast lead workshop. Guess I'll have to bring wheel weights.

The weekend event also resulted in a large bucket of copper jackets (with some lead soldered to it), amounting to some 150 pounds or so. Wonder what the copper is worth?
 
DukeInMaine said:
Over the weekend, I did 250 pounds of pure lead, which was salvaged from a local PD's indoor range. Range lead. I was so excited about having it to process, that I forgot to keep 20 pounds of it aside for the cast lead workshop. Guess I'll have to bring wheel weights.

The weekend event also resulted in a large bucket of copper jackets (with some lead soldered to it), amounting to some 150 pounds or so. Wonder what the copper is worth?
Click to expand...

A good amount, we swap it out for WW at the local scrapyard and we get something like 4-5x it back in WW [smile]

ETA: You probably want to run a magnet over it all first, alot of it will be steel jackets that look like copper. The scrapyard will certainly pick up on it [wink]
 
Word...[wink] Be aware when we have traded it in it was considered brass scrap and not copper... Either way, Mark is right..... We scored a fair amount of WW in trade....[smile]

Marcus5aurelius said:
A good amount, we swap it out for WW at the local scrapyard and we get something like 4-5x it back in WW [smile]

ETA: You probably want to run a magnet over it all first, alot of it will be steel jackets that look like copper. The scrapyard will certainly pick up on it [wink]
Click to expand...
 
OMG! I already have over 600 pounds of WW ingots to work through, plus having split this pure lead 50-50 with one of the other Weaponcraft guys, I have 125 pounds of that. Do you have any idea how many bullets that is???? Holy Cow!

Not sure I need to trade my precious pure lead for anything. Will use that as cores for my swaging projects, and need to cast some round balls for my muzzleloader (pure lead only, please)......

Even at scrap brass prices, it's a haul (the copper from the jackets).....
 
geez where do you guys scrap this stuff.........locally for me they dont want it. I heard the steel from WW clips is good steel but no one wants it here either???? I dont really have enough to cash in yet. Last night even in the cooler temps I did 50lbs no problem with the new burner.
 
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I've been giving my scrap to my gun club buddy, Tommy Thompson, who collects the brass from the ranges, and helps me out in a significant way with that. Any brass that people don't want, he brings to the scrap dealer in Portland, and turns the cash over to the gun club to buy range supplies. So, I have no idea what he goes through to sell the scrap. He hasn't ever complained that they didn't want metal. They may not always pay you what you think it's worth, but they never send you away.
 
Yea the best solution IMO is not to scrap for cash, but for WW exchange because to the scrap dealers, brass or copper is much more valuable than lead or WW. WW are pretty much only useful to reloaders
 
I scrapped 50lbs of brass Friday and got $69 and some change.

DukeInMaine said:
OMG! I already have over 600 pounds of WW ingots to work through, plus having split this pure lead 50-50 with one of the other Weaponcraft guys, I have 125 pounds of that. Do you have any idea how many bullets that is???? Holy Cow!

Not sure I need to trade my precious pure lead for anything. Will use that as cores for my swaging projects, and need to cast some round balls for my muzzleloader (pure lead only, please)......

Even at scrap brass prices, it's a haul (the copper from the jackets).....
Click to expand...
 

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