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So is the NRA covering their butt or...
- Thread starter matt1956
- Start date
I think they are foolish to allow any restrictions in RKBA, but I'm an absolutist on it for reasons I've mentioned numerous times.
Just as you wouldn't think of denying a retard, a suicidal manic-depressive, or an ex-con the right to print a newsletter or spout off from a soapbox, you shouldn't deny him the right to bear arms. If everyone else is also carrying a gun, anyone who isn't able to handle the responsibilities that come with that right won't last very long.
Giving some group the power to deny rights based on some demographic, class, or history just opens the door to even more "reasonable" restrictions based not on actions but on perception, stereotype, or generalities; and eventually, that right ceases to be a right and instead becomes a privilege accorded only the elite.
Kyle
As I understand it all that's happened is the rules that are currently on the book are going to be enforced. In this particular case, in response to the VT massacre, Cho shouldn't have been allowed to purchase a handgun in the first place. However, the rules were not been enforced properly (i.e. his name didn't make it to the list). Unlike squarooticus, I don't particularly like the idea of some derranged phsycho running around with guns even if other less-derranged people also have them. My only provision is that there needs to be a way to check your name is on the list, and to remove it if you are really sane. I don't really think this is the start of some slippery slope, and could actually preempt even worse legislation in the future.
On the whole gun purchasing thing (and slightly off-topic), does anyone else think the "marajuana addiction" question on the firearms purchase form is a little weird? Is there really a problem of college-aged stoners holding up local 7/11's demanding free bags of cheese Chetos?
On the whole gun purchasing thing (and slightly off-topic), does anyone else think the "marajuana addiction" question on the firearms purchase form is a little weird? Is there really a problem of college-aged stoners holding up local 7/11's demanding free bags of cheese Chetos?
The problem is that, as much as we'd all like not to have raving lunatics roaming the streets with firearms, the simple reality is that whatever system might be implemented will:
I am so overwhelmingly happy that I made a deliberate decision to have nothing to do with the VA health services once I returned to civilian life. Why who knows but that some pencil pushing Clintonista might have decided that I was "disturbed", just like 80K+ others "crazy" enough to serve.
Ken
- allow almost all raving lunatics to roam the streets with illegally obtained firearms, which I am assured by reliable sources are almost as dangerous as those obtained legally;
- allow a lot of raving lunatics to obtain firearms legally, and even roam the streets with them;
- prevent a lot of sane, law abiding citizens from legally possessing (much roaming the streets with) any firearms;
- make it a lot more insulting, time-consuming and expensive for every sane law abiding person attempting to legally purchase a firearm; and, last but not least,
- result in higher taxes for everyone and give the government more power over everybody, which history shows they will not refrain from using for more than a week or two.
I am so overwhelmingly happy that I made a deliberate decision to have nothing to do with the VA health services once I returned to civilian life. Why who knows but that some pencil pushing Clintonista might have decided that I was "disturbed", just like 80K+ others "crazy" enough to serve.
Ken
Yes, because we all know that if Cho's NICS check had bounced that would
have really prevented everything that happened.
![[rolleyes]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/042.gif "Roll Eyes [rolleyes]")
Yes, harrisand kleybold were really deterred by NICS checks that never occurred, among
other mass-slaying perpetrators. Isn't it strange that Malvo and
Muhammad never even filed a 4473? (they stole the gun used in the beltway
shootings, so even if the dad was flagged, wouldn't have mattered.) I
guess I find it just a little hard to believe that Cho would not have easily
circumvented NICS if it became an obstacle to him. Some guy who is
enough of a maniac to kill that many people is not going to be deterred by
a government computer and a bunch of (usually) empty threats of fines and
incarceration. Why not control the dangerous people instead of
the firearm? I'm waiting for one of these wackos to commit a mass slaying
with a motor vehicle, so then we will see public outcry for full blown
background checks on drivers licenses, as well.
And where is the precedent for such capitulation to terrorism actually
working? I haven't seen the antis say anything like "Oh well, we're not
interested in new legislation this session, we want to fund gun safety
programs instead." or anything else which would indicate satisfaction with
the status quo created by whatever deprivation of rights they've achieved.
To the antis, no amount of laws is enough- They'll quiet down a bit once
they've managed to ban any useful handgun or semiautomatic rifle, but even
after that they will still be whining. They will not cease until they've banned
everything. If you want proof look at the gun control present in most other
civilizations on the face of the earth. Most of them go balls to the wall
and at best, severely restrict ownership rights. Americans believing that
we are somehow magically exempt from this kind of socialist policy taking root
here are only fooling themselves. Soros and friends would not dump
millions of dollars into trying to ban guns here if they thought it was
impossible.
-Mike
I hear what you're both saying. But as I said, this is just enforcing existing legislation - there's nothing really new in it to get all bent out of shape over. If there is something new and scary then please let me know.
On the question of nut-cases (like Cho) finding other sources for their weapons I'm not 100% convinced. Sure, a determined psycho will certainly find a way. Sure a criminal will almost definately find a way. But the average "joe" nut case might not bother or find it just too hard. Let me put it this way; I wouldn't have the first clue how to get an illegal firearm so why make life easy for them?
On the question of nut-cases (like Cho) finding other sources for their weapons I'm not 100% convinced. Sure, a determined psycho will certainly find a way. Sure a criminal will almost definately find a way. But the average "joe" nut case might not bother or find it just too hard. Let me put it this way; I wouldn't have the first clue how to get an illegal firearm so why make life easy for them?
We need to enforce those laws already in place. That is an argument (which I agree with) which many to most RKBA supporters agree with. When someone actually makes a move to do it, without imposing additional restrictions, it shouldn't be something we oppose.
I think someone said that the bill will allow veterans who were deemed mentally unfit the chance to get that removed from their record.
I think someone said that the bill will allow veterans who were deemed mentally unfit the chance to get that removed from their record.
The problem I have is that the NRA is going to the table and is going to
get virtually nothing out of this aside for a little PR sugarcoating for the
middle... We're offering to crank up the heat/scrutiny a little more on civilian
purchase requirements... in exchange for virtually nothing. the antis won't
care and will still be on our ass just as hard the next day after it passes.
It might clean up the funny farm stuff a bit but it isn't going to touch on the
rest of the problems with NICS, or change any policy. The system gets
too many false positives for its own good, for starters. Should we really be
trusting a system where a person is prohibited from buying a gun, because a
computer "maybe sorta kinda" thinks that a given person is legally disqualified?
I have never had a problem with the system, but I know a few other people
that get delayed every time, and one guy I talked to even got a false denial.
All of this stuff gets straightened out, but at the time burden of the buyer.
The irony is often times people have to exonerate themselves for crimes they
never committed. Why should Joe Smith have to waste hours of
his time because some douchebag with a similar name committed a
crime and the NICS terminal operator is not bright enough or not given enough
capability to determine on the spot which one is which?
I find it amusing how one can go to the RMV and get a license to drive a
kinetic energy weapon and not get "delayed or denied" in the process of
doing so.... hell, I bet multiple DUI convicts renew their license all the
time without issue. Yet, you try to go exercise a constitutionally
protected freedom and you have to jump through 48 flaming hoops to
even think about doing it.
Makes me wonder, how often this system falses in the other direction,
too. I'm sure there are a lot of individuals who get a PROCEED who really
shouldn't be, due to clerical errors or other problems with legal
documentation.
I guess I'm just a pessimist about this. Even if these improvements cause
a few extra nutbags to get arrested, it won't matter much in the grand
scheme of things and the antis will not acknowledge it. In essence
we turned the oven up and will get rewarded with an overcooked chicken
pot pie.
I would think that a guy who methodically planned to murder a whole bunch
of people would qualify as a "determined psycho". This guy was not in a
rush to do what he did, and it wasn't a spur of the moment thing... and
he jumped through the hoops and waiting period to import a gun. Someone
who went through all that trouble is probably not going to let a little problem
passing a NICS check throw their whole plan into the shitter.
One doesn't have to be a criminal to figure out how to successfully
evade the NICS system, among other things. (not to mention a myriad of other
ways they get guns.... )
If it was difficult for criminals to obtain firearms illegally then one would not
hear much about all the assaults with firearms that occur in boston, brockton,
new bedford, and other such "fun" locales. So apparently, life is pretty
easy for them already. The criminal justice system in this state and other
parts of the country makes sure of that.... because it rarely does a full
court press on violent criminals anymore. So called "illegal guns" are
probably just a side business of a typical drug dealer in this state... they
steal them or straw them, and then sell them alongside the rest of their
contraband. As long as the CJ system (especially the courts) continues
to taking a limp wristed approach to dealing with violent criminals, this kind of
thing is going to keep happening.
-Mike
Not really directly related, but funny story in the same vein:
I was once "treated" through the Air Force mental health system at Hanscom AFB. I went in to the regular medical clinic for some moderate sleep issues, expecting to be given a week's worth of Ambien and sent on home with best wishes. Instead, I was given a referral slip to the Air Force mental health clinic, and I headed over there. In the process of a 20 minute interview about my sleep patterns and diet, the barely trained mental health "specialist" (with little or no college training and only a few months of USAF schooling) determined that I was depressed and suffering from severe PTSD symptoms. I had a stressful job, but I like to think that I, as a fairly experienced health care professional, would recognize those symptoms in myself.
Skipping through three more visits to that awful place, lots of bloodwork (poorly done, I might add), and finally being declared "just tired and in need of a vacation" by a real psychiatrist, it apparently all was cleared up and I put it behind me. I'm just recently getting straight answers from the PD where I lived and had my LTC (issued then suspended), and this whole thing "may or may not be a big part of the reason" that my LTC was suspended...at the request of my CO, who wasn't supposed to know about any of it.
The moral of the story is: don't ever trust anyone in the mental health field. They get bored easily and apparently like to misdiagnose people for kicks.
ETA: Just to answer before anyone asks, I pass NICS checks on a monthly basis, and I've never even had a hold on a purchase.
I was once "treated" through the Air Force mental health system at Hanscom AFB. I went in to the regular medical clinic for some moderate sleep issues, expecting to be given a week's worth of Ambien and sent on home with best wishes. Instead, I was given a referral slip to the Air Force mental health clinic, and I headed over there. In the process of a 20 minute interview about my sleep patterns and diet, the barely trained mental health "specialist" (with little or no college training and only a few months of USAF schooling) determined that I was depressed and suffering from severe PTSD symptoms. I had a stressful job, but I like to think that I, as a fairly experienced health care professional, would recognize those symptoms in myself.
Skipping through three more visits to that awful place, lots of bloodwork (poorly done, I might add), and finally being declared "just tired and in need of a vacation" by a real psychiatrist, it apparently all was cleared up and I put it behind me. I'm just recently getting straight answers from the PD where I lived and had my LTC (issued then suspended), and this whole thing "may or may not be a big part of the reason" that my LTC was suspended...at the request of my CO, who wasn't supposed to know about any of it.
The moral of the story is: don't ever trust anyone in the mental health field. They get bored easily and apparently like to misdiagnose people for kicks.
ETA: Just to answer before anyone asks, I pass NICS checks on a monthly basis, and I've never even had a hold on a purchase.
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The antis will never be satisfied. Our politicians and others in Govt. have shown time and time again that they can't be trusted. This as with all the other unconstitutional laws will cause more infringements and make things worse not better. Some reading for everyone.
http://www.newswithviews.com/Stuter/stuter103.htm
http://www.newswithviews.com/Stuter/stuter103.htm
