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Springfield M1a Scout Squad, Thoughts and personal experience?
- Thread starter Rate_of_Twist
- Start date
Sweeney
NES Member
For pre-bans you'll need to shop around... 55-grain usually has them in the classifieds.
CMI is a current manufacturer for USGI (and they make the SAi magazines). 44Mag.com usually has good prices on them.
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Why do people want to put optics on M14's? Is like buying a Garand and then complaining that is hard to mount a scope on one.
Learn to use the issued sights, you might surprise yourself.
The SCAR does everything the M14 does better and easier? ?
I don't even know where to begin with that.
Learn to use the issued sights, you might surprise yourself.
The SCAR does everything the M14 does better and easier? ?
I don't even know where to begin with that.
Sweeney
NES Member
The military put optics on both the M1 and M14. Maybe some people just prefer it that way. Depending on my mood I'll take one of my M14s with optic or another without...sometimes both.
Why do people want to shoot with with shooting jackets and gloves/mitts?
Why do some people prefer wine over beer? blue over red? Football over baseball? Blonde vs brunette?
Who cares! Whatever you do with your guns that makes you happy is fine with me.
I've shot NRA high power (not well) I've shot USPSA (also not well) Ive shot with optics, red dots, irons, at short and medium ranges.... I shoot whatever and however makes me happy and for whatever reason I want, period end of story
.and if you ask those that used them most are not inpressed.... for one thing it did not increase accuracy, from the 2 ret snipers at our club from Korean war the only real advantage to the scopes used on the 1904a4,M1 snipers was extending the visual range. the M14 was not a huge success for the military from what i remember reading they converted 1500 or so NM rifles and out fitted them with a redfield ART low mag scope... if you look at the mount set up on the M1d and the M14 they are not ideal and IMHO where not designed for optimum accuracy... one big thumb screw on the M1d and M14 looks like good enough for GI... I dont know enough about the M25 set up to comment.
Also consider in the day of the M14 National Match they where good to go after assembly if they could hold 3 consectutive 10 shot groups of 3.5" or less with M118 ammo. I like scopes but not so much on a m1a or garand.
Now i only know one person who succesfully has mounted a scope on a M1a and shoots regulary. He was a certified NM armor from 1960-1982.
he says if he where to build the rifle he shoots and hold the accuracy it does your looking at about 6k.
When he goes to Perry for the national matches he brings his AR..
its all fun... i like the M1a by looks more than the platform. Especially at what the average M1a cost keeps me from buying one.
Sweeney
NES Member
That wasn't the point of my reply to PatMcD.
Clearly, sticking an optic on a mechanically 3moa rife will not make it a 1moa rifle. Sticking a scope on a battle rifle will not make it a sniper rifle. A properly built and maintained XM25 is reported to be a 1/2moa gun...more than sufficient for it's designed role. Lots of people successfully mount optics on the M14 platform. You just have to use a good scope mount like the Brookfield design. A lot of people add an optic not so much to improve accuracy but simply so they can see the darn target due to their eyesight deficiencies.
Yes, ARs are inherently more accurate than the M14... but they have no soul...
![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
Though the accuracy of my 1842 Springfield sucks at 1000 yards I still like it. Hmmm, maybe if I put a scope on it... You are correct, "It's all fun".
Cheers!
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That wasn't the point of my reply to PatMcD.
Clearly, sticking an optic on a mechanically 3moa rife will not make it a 1moa rifle. Sticking a scope on a battle rifle will not make it a sniper rifle. A properly built and maintained XM25 is reported to be a 1/2moa gun...more than sufficient for it's designed role. Lots of people successfully mount optics on the M14 platform. You just have to use a good scope mount like the Brookfield design. A lot of people add an optic not so much to improve accuracy but simply so they can see the darn target due to their eyesight deficiencies.
Yes, ARs are inherently more accurate than the M14... but they have no soul...
You are correct, "It's all fun".
Cheers!
The M25 is a custom built rifle running about what 5k plus with out optics? Hope it gets sub moa ....for a little while.
And it doesn't have iron sights!
I hear you on optics for the vision lacking folks...I'm right there. I have been scoping most of my rifles because of my failing vision.
I have my next scope planned already looking like the T36 XR for my old 513t.
Fun times...
You will have to come up about 40 years on the Springfield to start hitting stuff at 1000 yards. But hey if Jerry can do it with a 9mm pistol those rifles must be able to
![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
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Sweeney
NES Member
What M25 are you referring to...LRB? I'm referring to the XM25 Developed by 10th Special Forces out of Devens and Brookfield Precision Tool. It has iron sights which are usable with the scope mounted.
The picture that came up with the M25 write up showed no sights? the scope rail looked locked into the rear sight ears? now of course I cant find that same link...ugghh
looks like the picture shown was the SAI M25 whitefeather special edition cant find the article it was a military article ? anyhow this
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/590666034
also learned something new BPT was in MA ..... hmm.
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Sweeney
NES Member
Ah.... I'm referring to the original XM25 ... http://www.snipercentral.com/u-s-m25-xm25-sniper-weapon-system/ . There are a few companies using M21, M25, etc on some special M14 type products.
BPT still exists and I know Mitch pretty well. He let me borrow the original XM25 gas cylinder jig to modify my cylinders. I also have an M1 he built using a Barnett med weight barrel in 7.62 NATO. He still does gun smithing.
Yes, That is Brookfield, MA.
He helped design and he built the (at least) the first dozen or so XM25 rifles along with one for himself.
The XM25 has at least 6 unique BPT components;
1: Gas cylinder
2: Piston
3: Recoil spring guide
4: Steel bedding liner
5: Special inletted McMillian stock
6: Scope mount
This thread covers pretty much all you need to know about the XM25; http://m14forum.com/m14/186246-building-xm25-parts.html
BPT still exists and I know Mitch pretty well. He let me borrow the original XM25 gas cylinder jig to modify my cylinders. I also have an M1 he built using a Barnett med weight barrel in 7.62 NATO. He still does gun smithing.
Yes, That is Brookfield, MA.
He helped design and he built the (at least) the first dozen or so XM25 rifles along with one for himself.
The XM25 has at least 6 unique BPT components;
1: Gas cylinder
2: Piston
3: Recoil spring guide
4: Steel bedding liner
5: Special inletted McMillian stock
6: Scope mount
This thread covers pretty much all you need to know about the XM25; http://m14forum.com/m14/186246-building-xm25-parts.html
I was contemplating the LRB M25 with rear lug. I bought a few of the CMP M14 parts kits. I was not to impressed with the condition of the kits so a 1200$ receiver on Field grade
Parts kit was a little silly
Parts kit was a little silly
Love mine. Has a Burris long eye relief scope and works just fine. Great rifle.
That's cool. I was looking ar that scope in particular with some QD rings so I could play with the irons or have a red dot to throw on.
We actually have a used custom built LRB M25 at the gun shop I work Saturday's at... nice setup, but not practical on my budget.
Few of the guys at my club like this stuff. They don't reload and I try to get all their brass.
http://www.ppu-usa.com/ppu/308-winchester-match/
I use PPU brass to reload 54r, 7.7Japanese, 7.5Swiss,8mms mauser and I have a pile of 30-06. Quality brass
StevieP
NES Member
To break it in and get on paper wrt sighting it in, it doesn't much matter. 147gr 7.62 is pretty standard. Once you're trying to shoot for groups, if your gun doesn't shoot 168gr Federal Gold Medal Match accurately, it probably won't shoot anything accurately. How long is your range?
I'm a Harvard member but I haven't qualified at the 200-300 yard range so I only have 100 at the moment
dcmdon
NES Member
I had a SA Scout Squad for about 10 years. I actually just sold it.
It was a solid rifle, but once I bought a full length SA M1A, I stopped shooting it.
In my humble opinion these rifles are best full length. But if you want a short one, then its a great choice. Especially since its generally much cheaper used than the SOCOM, wihch is only 2 in shorter.
Mine came with a plastic stock and was not nearly as handsome as the wooden stocked version one member showed on an earlier page.
All in all, its a great gun. But if I want vintage fun, I usually reach for one of my Garands and if I want semi-auto .308 accuracy I reach for an AR I built with Mega upper and lower, a Lilja barrel, and a Geissele trigger.
Don
It was a solid rifle, but once I bought a full length SA M1A, I stopped shooting it.
In my humble opinion these rifles are best full length. But if you want a short one, then its a great choice. Especially since its generally much cheaper used than the SOCOM, wihch is only 2 in shorter.
Mine came with a plastic stock and was not nearly as handsome as the wooden stocked version one member showed on an earlier page.
All in all, its a great gun. But if I want vintage fun, I usually reach for one of my Garands and if I want semi-auto .308 accuracy I reach for an AR I built with Mega upper and lower, a Lilja barrel, and a Geissele trigger.
Don
dcmdon
NES Member
I haven't optimized my reloads for the Mega yet. The chamber in the Lilja barrel has a longer throat than my Savage bolt gun, which is what I optimized my reloads for.
I've had the gun for a few years, but have been distracted with other things.
My groups averaged about 1.25" but that comes with some caveats.
1) I don't cherry pick groups. These were 5 shot groups, averaged. Not the best single 3 shot group out of 10 shot.
2) I only had a 4x scope because I don't have a high powered scope in a set of rings tall enough to fit an AR and haven't yet purchased one.
3) I've done minimal load development as I mentioned above. These groups were shot with Federal Gold Medal Match with 168g SMKs.
4) The Lilja barrel is hardly broken in.
One other thing. I believe that I'll get the best accuracy by loading with minimal bullet leap, which will result in a round that is too long for an AR10 magazine. So best accuracy will come from single loaded rounds.
I shold really start working with that gun again, but we are not in the time of year when its fun to lie on the ground and test guns for accuracy.
Mega upper and lower - $550
Lilja bbl - $450
geissele - $200
BCG - $200
Stock, buffer etc $150
LPK - $30
Total - $1600 ish
I've had the gun for a few years, but have been distracted with other things.
My groups averaged about 1.25" but that comes with some caveats.
1) I don't cherry pick groups. These were 5 shot groups, averaged. Not the best single 3 shot group out of 10 shot.
2) I only had a 4x scope because I don't have a high powered scope in a set of rings tall enough to fit an AR and haven't yet purchased one.
3) I've done minimal load development as I mentioned above. These groups were shot with Federal Gold Medal Match with 168g SMKs.
4) The Lilja barrel is hardly broken in.
One other thing. I believe that I'll get the best accuracy by loading with minimal bullet leap, which will result in a round that is too long for an AR10 magazine. So best accuracy will come from single loaded rounds.
I shold really start working with that gun again, but we are not in the time of year when its fun to lie on the ground and test guns for accuracy.
Mega upper and lower - $550
Lilja bbl - $450
geissele - $200
BCG - $200
Stock, buffer etc $150
LPK - $30
Total - $1600 ish
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1600ish and 1.25" groups right from the get go..... wont find a 1600 SAI that will do that.... AND you put it together at home! This is why I leaned away from the M1a buold its just hard to justify the money for the potential accuracy...
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dcmdon
NES Member
I get your point.
All of the complexity around bedding the stock and the interaction between the action and the stock is removed in the AR platform. All that matters is the lockup between the bolt and the barrel, which is handled by the locking lugs on the barrel, not the receiver or any other part of the action.
I remember a guy cringing at one of my first high power matches when I touched a highly optimized M1A by the forearm while placing my rifle in the rack. It was explained to me that often they didn't even like to pick up the rifles by the forearm and that the M14s had to constantly be "maintained" with respect to staying accurate.
With an AR, if you buy a good barrel that's headspaced correctly with the bolt and put a decent trigger on it, you can just about be guaranteed a good shooter.
Don
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One other thing.
I have been able to wring out a hair under 2 moa (again averaging 5 shot groups, not cherry picking 3 shot groups) with a friends SCAR 17 using inexpensive american made commercial ammo. I was pretty impressed with that.
Don
All of the complexity around bedding the stock and the interaction between the action and the stock is removed in the AR platform. All that matters is the lockup between the bolt and the barrel, which is handled by the locking lugs on the barrel, not the receiver or any other part of the action.
I remember a guy cringing at one of my first high power matches when I touched a highly optimized M1A by the forearm while placing my rifle in the rack. It was explained to me that often they didn't even like to pick up the rifles by the forearm and that the M14s had to constantly be "maintained" with respect to staying accurate.
With an AR, if you buy a good barrel that's headspaced correctly with the bolt and put a decent trigger on it, you can just about be guaranteed a good shooter.
Don
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One other thing.
I have been able to wring out a hair under 2 moa (again averaging 5 shot groups, not cherry picking 3 shot groups) with a friends SCAR 17 using inexpensive american made commercial ammo. I was pretty impressed with that.
Don
i find that t be pretty darn good also... not all inexpensive ammo is bad. One of the guys at my club runs reminton 55grain soft point green nd yellow box and he shoots darn well with it out of his base A2 with the only mod being a floated NM handguard set up barrel is just a A2 556 nato chamber chromoly steel.
