Teen Gunman kills 5 in Utah mall

[C-pher]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070213/ap_on_re_us/utah_shooting

Teen Gunman kills 5 in Utah mall
By JENNIFER DOBNER, Associated Press Writer
32 minutes ago



SALT LAKE CITY - A historic mall's winding hallways became a shooting gallery for an 18-year-old gunman in a trench coat who fired a shotgun randomly at customers, killing five and wounding four before being killed by police, authorities and witnesses said.

The shooter, whose name was not released, also was armed with a handgun and had several rounds of ammunition, Salt Lake City police Detective Robin Snyder said early Tuesday. No motive has yet been determined, she said.

For hours after Monday evening's rampage at the Trolley Square shopping mall, police searched stores for scared, shocked shoppers and employees who were hunkered down awaiting a safe escort.

Marie Smith, 23, a Bath & Body Works manager, saw the gunman through the store window. She watched as he raised his gun and fired at a young woman approaching him from behind.

"His expression stayed totally calm. He didn't seem upset, or like he was on a rampage," said Smith, who crawled to safety in an employee restroom to hide with others. She said the gunman looked like "an average Joe."

Killed were two 28-year-old women, a 52-year-old man, a 24-year-old man and a 15-year-old girl, Snyder said. Four people were hospitalized — a man and a woman in critical condition and two men in serious condition, Snyder said.

Matt Lund was visiting his wife, Barbara, manager of the Secret Garden children's clothing store, when he heard the first shots. The couple and three others hid in a storage room for about 40 minutes, isolated but still able to hear the violence.

"We heard them say, 'Police! Drop your weapon!' Then we heard shotgun fire. Then there was a barrage of gunfire," said Lund, 44. "It was hard to believe."

They say officers treated everyone like suspects — ordering those hiding in storerooms, bathrooms or under stairwells, to lie on the floor with their hands on their heads until police were sure no one posed a threat.

On the way out, Lund said, he saw a woman's body face-down at the entrance to Pottery Barn Kids and a man's body on the floor in the mall's east-west corridor. "There were a lot of blown-out store windows and shotgun shell casings all over the floor," Lund said. "It was quite surreal."

The victims were found throughout the 239,000-square-foot shopping mall.

Outside, streets were blocked as police swarmed the four-block scene. Dozens of people lingered on the sidewalk, many wrapped in blankets, as they talked about what they had seen inside.

The two-story mall, southeast of downtown, is a refurbished trolley barn built in 1908, with a series of winding hallways, brick floors, wrought-iron balconies and about 80 stores, including high-end retailers such as Williams-Sonoma and restaurants such as the Hard Rock Cafe.

Antique store owner Barrett Dodds, 29, said he saw a man in a trench coat exchanging gunfire with a police officer outside a card store. The gunman, he said, was backed into a children's clothing store.

"I saw the shooter go down," said Dodds, who watched from the second floor.

Four police officers — one an off-duty officer from Ogden and three Salt Lake City officers — were involved in the shootout with the gunman, Snyder said. She provided no other details.

Barb McKeown, 60, of Washington, D.C., was in another antique shop when two frantic women ran in and reported gunshots.

"Then we heard shot after shot after shot — loud, loud, loud," said McKeown, saying she heard about 20. She and three other people hid under a staircase until it was safe to leave.

___

Associated Press writer Doug Alden in Salt Lake City contributed to this report.

This type of stuff really drives me nuts... If you're pissed at the world, there's so many different ways to go about it..

And I have a feeling that he just wanted to die, but didn't have the balls to do it himself. So, he involved the police. Which while he's gotten what he wants, there's a cop out there that's going to have to deal with this for the rest of his life.

Not only do I fell for the parents of that little girl, I feel for all the people that were involved. I can only imagine that something like this doesn't leave your thoughts and nightmares very quickly.

 

[Thor67]

Where were all of the Utah CCW holders?

 

[C-pher]

That's a good point...

I'm guessing that either it happened too fast, or that they just weren't shopping on a Monday night.

It doesn't say how fast it all happened. If only 5 are dead, then it had to go down pretty fast. I'm guessing that they have police patroling the mall, so they were onsite pretty quick.

 

[Pilgrim]

and yet another:

Police kill man accused of shooting grandkids
84-year-old allegedly killed granddaughter, wounded grandson and friend

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17123697/

 

[drgrant]

Where were all of the Utah CCW holders?

The stats probably didn't pan out that well. (in most states CCW holders
account for a minority of a minority- eg, even out of gun owners as a
demograpic, very few of them have a CCW... even in a gun friendly place
like Utah. ) I'd imagine that if one or more was there, that depending
on circumstances they may have run out and not done anything. It's
not their responsibility.

Imagine this- you're in the mall, and you hear gunfire, but can't see
the shooter... you CAN see a nearby exit... are you going to run
around the mall looking for the shooter? I'm sure as hell not, not unless it
occurring nearby. I doubt anyone else would address the threat
either, unless it was imminent/present.

-Mike

 

[icyclefar]

Imagine this- you're in the mall, and you hear gunfire, but can't see the shooter... you CAN see a nearby exit... are you going to run around the mall looking for the shooter? I'm sure as hell not, not unless it occurring nearby. I doubt anyone else would address the threat
either, unless it was imminent/present.

-Mike

Or imagine you are there and you can see the shooter, 75 feet away, people running, lots of confusion ......... do you take the shot?

Can you be certain of the ultimate resting place of that round you fire?

Very tough decision.

 

[Cato]

Or imagine you are there and you can see the shooter, 75 feet away, people running, lots of confusion ......... do you take the shot?

Can you be certain of the ultimate resting place of that round you fire?

Very tough decision.

Easy decision in MA.

In MA one can not legally use deadly force to protect anyone other than yourself or immediate family.

So in MA the law would require you to watch the slaughter unless you could demonstrate that you reasonably felt that you or someone in your immediate family's life was in jeopardy or in danger of great bodily harm.

 

[Chris]

Almost without exception, your gun is YOUR defense. While defense of another is allowed, the requirement of "defense of the innocent" makes it very difficult to know who's who. Sure, in a mall incident like the above, that might not be so hard if you are RIGHT THERE, but not otherwise.

The only difference between a civilian and the police when it comes to the use of deadly force is that the police are allowed to rush into a situation where the civilian is obligated to retreat.

 

[Cross-X]

Easy decision in MA.

In MA one can not legally use deadly force to protect anyone other than yourself or immediate family.

So in MA the law would require you to watch the slaughter unless you could demonstrate that you reasonably felt that you or someone in your immediate family's life was in jeopardy or in danger of great bodily harm.

This is a glaring misstatement of the law of self-defense in Massachusetts. If someone else, a family member, friend, or stranger, is facing an imminent deadly force attack, was not the initial aggressor, and cannot retreat or save himself with less than lethal force, you have a right to step into his shoes and defend him with lethal force of your own.

When the deadly force threat ends, you must cease your use of lethal force.

This situation requires great caution, because if the guy you are defending actually started the fight, and you step in on his side, you could be walking into a slew of criminal charges.

Darius Arbabi

 

[drgrant]

Easy decision in MA.

In MA one can not legally use deadly force to protect anyone other than yourself or immediate family.

While that is (probably? maybe not?) true, there are numerous circumstances in which deadly force would still be justified; especially if the perp is between you and your means of escape. The shooter is still an imminent threat to YOU- and taking him down could be justified.

I agree that if you go around the mall looking for the shooter, and end
up capping his ass, that the court may not look kindly upon that, and
you'd better pray for either prosecutorial discretion or jury nullification at
that point... while that might wash in a gun friendly state, it may not
wash here. (depends on media spin, wether the local DA is a douchebag
or not, and how much pressure gets put on him/her, one way or the
other. ).

-Mike

 

[icyclefar]

This is a glaring misstatement of the law of self-defense in Massachusetts. If someone else, a family member, friend, or stranger, is facing an imminent deadly force attack, was not the initial aggressor, and cannot retreat or save himself with less than lethal force, you have a right to step into his shoes and defend him with lethal force of your own.

When the deadly force threat ends, you must cease your use of lethal force.

This situation requires great caution, because if the guy you are defending actually started the fight, and you step in on his side, you could be walking into a slew of criminal charges.

Darius Arbabi

THANK YOU FOR THE CLARIFICATION DARIUS!

YOU'DA MAN!

 

[Cato]

This is a glaring misstatement of the law of self-defense in Massachusetts. If someone else, a family member, friend, or stranger, is facing an imminent deadly force attack, was not the initial aggressor, and cannot retreat or save himself with less than lethal force, you have a right to step into his shoes and defend him with lethal force of your own.

When the deadly force threat ends, you must cease your use of lethal force.

This situation requires great caution, because if the guy you are defending actually started the fight, and you step in on his side, you could be walking into a slew of criminal charges.

Darius Arbabi

Thanks for the correction. I was misinformed.

 

[Cato]

While that is (probably? maybe not?) true, there are numerous circumstances in which deadly force would still be justified; especially if the perp is between you and your means of escape. The shooter is still an imminent threat to YOU- and taking him down could be justified.

I agree that if you go around the mall looking for the shooter, and end
up capping his ass, that the court may not look kindly upon that, and
you'd better pray for either prosecutorial discretion or jury nullification at
that point... while that might wash in a gun friendly state, it may not
wash here. (depends on media spin, wether the local DA is a douchebag
or not, and how much pressure gets put on him/her, one way or the
other. ).

-Mike

Yes that is what I thought also. I was misinformed by someone who I thought should have been reliable in this area.

But I have to defer to Cross-X due to his expertise in this area.

 

[boomerang]

Were any of these people who went crazy on anti-depressants?

I bet some were.

Going on a berzerker doesn't necessarily mean that they went crazy.

Implying that anti-depressants cause violence is similar to people implying that guns cause violence.

 

[drgrant]

Were any of these people who went crazy on anti-depressants?

I bet some were.

Or maybe they weren't and should have been? Who knows.

Anti-Depressant use doesn't make people into wackjobs, at least
not most of the time.

That being said, that door probably swings both ways. I know a lot
of people who are on them that are much better when medicated; and I
know firsthand that some people, in some cases, it can make them
worse. One guy in my family was on paxil- while he wasnt dangerous
when taking it, "space cadet" would be a good description.... short term
memory shot to shit, and sometimes he would say things that didnt make
sense, or have strange moods. He stopped taking it because it just
messed him up and he was better without it.

I can agree that everyone reacts differently to the drugs that are out there. I think the medical profession is way too quick to throw pills at people without studying the effects in some cases.

-Mike

 

[Weerd Beard]

Where were all of the Utah CCW holders?

IIRC didn't the WildWeasles live out that way? I thought I remeberd them mentioning that a lot of places like malls were posted "No Firearms".

Give me a hand?

-Weer'd

**Edit**
https://www2.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=15907727&postID=279399232500666916
Looks like one of Tam's readers is from Utah and gave me the skinny

 

[dwarven1]

IIRC didn't the WildWeasles live out that way?

Uh... I know that Northampton is way out there, Andy, but not quite that far!

I know that Sue was from the Pacific NorthWet - Oregon, maybe? - but I don't ever remember reading from her about Utah.

 

[SKS Ray]

No matter what the laws say I think a jury would be hard pressed to convict someone hailed as the local hero who was licensed to carry a firearm that saved himself and others from slaughter.
If I had a clear shot I'd take it. You never know if the perp will spot you and your family if you're standing by hiding out and decide to aim at you before you can take him out.

 

[Dirtypacman]

Imagine this- you're in the mall, and you hear gunfire, but can't see
the shooter... you CAN see a nearby exit... are you going to run
around the mall looking for the shooter? I'm sure as hell not, not unless it
occurring nearby. I doubt anyone else would address the threat
either, unless it was imminent/present.

-Mike

In this instance you could have been shot yourself by a cop/leo thinking your another one of the shooters/scumbags. Not a good situation for anyone regardless. I don't know what I would do until I was faced with it.

Such a horrible thing to happen.. what a real jerk - I could care less of his reasons no innocent person should suffer.

 

[Weerd Beard]

No matter what the laws say I think a jury would be hard pressed to convict someone hailed as the local hero who was licensed to carry a firearm that saved himself and others from slaughter.

No Doubt! Hell look what happened in Anti-Central NYC!
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/451222p-379660c.html

From what I gather this lady in a wheelchair has what we would call an LTC Restricted. So she gets attacked and shoots the goblin, and tells the police she was headed to the range. They don't ask how she unlocked and loaded the gun in time, or how often she takes her little dog to the range.

Of course not! A lady in a wheelchair's life was just saved by a gun that was illigally being carried....but her gun was registered, and she had a restricted permit for it, but there was no way NYC would let her carry concealed legally...but if they charged her it would have drawn attention to such nonsence.

They can't have that....

 

[benster]

As an aside, For all the gamers here, I wonder when people will start blaming this crime on the Xbox 360 game "dead rising".

For those who dont know, the game is based on a character that is trapped in a mall full of zombies and has to fight/shoot his way out with anything he can get his hands on. This game is banned in certain countries.

http://www.capcom.com/deadrising/

 

[LoginName]

and yet another:

Police kill man accused of shooting grandkids
84-year-old allegedly killed granddaughter, wounded grandson and friend

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17123697/

Another in Philly...

4 dead at Philadelphia marketing company

PHILADELPHIA — Three men were shot to death in a marketing company conference room and another was critically injured by a gunman who killed himself as police closed in, authorities said.

Police found a scene of "utter chaos" Monday night at the offices of Zigzag Net Inc., city police Deputy Commissioner Richard Ross said.

Two victims were on the floor and another was in a chair, all with "wounds to various parts of the body," Ross said. He said two other men had been bound with duct tape but not attacked. One of those men told officers the gunman had shot himself after exchanging fire with police officer, Ross said.

"The officer mentioned to me that he had to take a knife out to cut this person loose," Ross said. None of the police officers was hurt.

Police identified the victims as Robert Norris, 41, of Newark, Del.; Mark Norris, 46, of Piles Grove, N.J.; and James Reif, 42, of Endicott, N.Y. The injured victim, whose name was not released, was taken to Thomas Jefferson Hospital, where he was listed in critical condition Tuesday morning.

Zigzag's Web site lists Mark Norris as president and CEO. Mark Norris and Robert Norris are brothers, said Aaron Haydn McLean, Zigzag's senior art director, but McLean said he had not been told that the company CEO was among the dead.

Reif worked with another company, Watson International, McLean said. Watson International's Web site lists a Robert Norris as vice president of business development. A phone number listed on the Web site was disconnected.

Zigzag has about 15 employees, said McLean, who has worked there for about five years.

The gunman's role in the company was not immediately clear, but Ross said police believed he might have been an investor.

Police scheduled an early afternoon news conference to discuss the shooting.

The shootings took place in the Philadelphia Naval Business Center, an office park that is part of the old Philadelphia Navy Yard.

It was one of the Navy's busiest shipbuilders during World War II but closed in 1995. Two years later, a private company, Kvaerner, resumed commercial shipbuilding in a portion of the shipyard, which is now known as Aker Shipyard. Other areas of the Navy facility have been converted to business and office use.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/nation/4549693.html

Murders in Philly are already at an all time high and the Mayor, media and anti-gun types are calling for types of gun control legislation. This particular incident will really set them off the deep end.

 

[drgrant]

Of course not! A lady in a wheelchair's life was just saved by a gun that was illigally being carried....but her gun was registered, and she had a restricted permit for it, but there was no way NYC would let her carry concealed legally...but if they charged her it would have drawn attention to such nonsence.

They can't have that....

The wheelchair is basically the free pass there.... too much political
overtones. Throwing a crippled woman in jail that otherwise had a
clean record just looks bad. Do the same to an ambulatory white
male though, and the system will get off scot free.

-Mike

 

[Thor67]

I thought Philly had a fairly strict policy on issuing CCW permits. Anyone know what the story is for sure?

Re: UTAH - Utah is one of the states that a lot of non-residents try to get because it is recognized in 30ish states. I think there are about 60,000 residents with permits.

 

[KIDGLOCK]

Imagine this- you're in the mall, and you hear gunfire, but can't see
the shooter... you CAN see a nearby exit... are you going to run
around the mall looking for the shooter? I'm sure as hell not, not unless it
occurring nearby. I doubt anyone else would address the threat
either, unless it was imminent/present.

Some mind set you have . Lemming to the sea. Sad very sad .

 

[Garys]

The shooter was a Muslim. How long before we find out that he wanted to kill infidels?

Have you also noted how little play this has received in the national media? Yeah, there's some, but not what you'd expect. The Herald had a little blurb buried deep in the paper, that's all.

Gary

 

[dwarven1]

The shooter was a Muslim. How long before we find out that he wanted to kill infidels?

Have you also noted how little play this has received in the national media? Yeah, there's some, but not what you'd expect. The Herald had a little blurb buried deep in the paper, that's all.

Gary

Where did you find that? I just looked in the Herald online an couldn't find it anywhere. Got a link?

 

[Fooped]

No matter what the laws say I think a jury would be hard pressed to convict someone hailed as the local hero who was licensed to carry a firearm that saved himself and others from slaughter.
If I had a clear shot I'd take it. You never know if the perp will spot you and your family if you're standing by hiding out and decide to aim at you before you can take him out.

Here that person would be "no better than criminal that started shooting".

Sad.

Really sad.

 

[Bruce for NH State Rep]

link

Police Tuesday identified the gunman accused in Monday night's Trolley Square shooting as Sulejman Talovic, an 18-year-old Bosnian refugee who lived in Salt Lake City.

That article makes no mention of his religion, just his nationality.

 

[Bruce for NH State Rep]

Another one (FWIW)

The 18-year-old gunman who killed five people in a crowded Utah shopping mall was a Bosnian Muslim refugee who was prepared to kill many more, say investigators.