Text Book Example of a Squib Load

[milktree]

I weigh the completed round, every one of them. You can't double chagre a .223, I am loading 24.3 gr and (don't quote me) capacity is about 30gr. I do realize their is a couple gr variance in brass types but the bullets are pretty much perfect. If my rounds are within +/-2.0 gr I go with it (this +/-2.0 is due to the brass not the powder!) I have found a couple at +4 gr and they go in my 'special' box. If for any reason the powder fails to drop that would be a 24gr difference. This procedure ensures I will never get a round with primer only and no powder. Not saying I will never have a squib but I feel better about my ammo. Very easy to crank out 1K rounds of .223 ammo in an afternoon and when I go shooting with my buddies I don't know who may want to shoot my gun or need ammo. Not sure why you think this is a waste of time but you are intitled to your opinion.

OK, I understand now.

I was thinking in terms of small(er) handgun loads, where variation in bullet and case weight can exceed the powder charge. I tried doing exactly what you do, but got numbers that were so wacky I stopped... but that was for 9mm where I was only using 4.0 gr. of bullseye.

I totally see how what you're doing makes perfect sense.

 

[TZCHRIS]

My first batch of 1000 I got really anal and separated the brass by weight, that got old very fast! But I was amazed at the difference in weight of the brass only.

 

[milktree]

My first batch of 1000 I got really anal and separated the brass by weight, that got old very fast! But I was amazed at the difference in weight of the brass only.

Is this random range scrounged brass, or single headstamp? My PPU07 5.56 brass is all within about 4 grains from lightest to heaviest, I think. Now that I think about it, that seems like a pretty small spread, but it's what sticks in my head.

 

[TZCHRIS]

Mostly LC but as time goes by its a pretty mixed bag, 4 gr is about the range.

 

[EddieCoyle]

I weigh the completed round, every one of them.

Why?

 

[TZCHRIS]

Why?

'look twice, save a life' Why? I don't know, I just do, habit from when I first started, it is really only a fraction of the total time I load. 1000 rnds in 30 min, I can video if you would like? I don't watch the powder feed mechanism and even though it works great (Lee Pro 1000) it looks a little cheap to me. My answer is I don't know why, but I will say I look at every round I make may be the one that saves my life someday so adding 2 sec per round is no issue or concearn. I learned to load a little different than you?

 

[Sir_Macadoo]

anyone ever hear of AQL?

Use your google fu.

 

[TZCHRIS]

anyone ever hear of AQL?

Use your google fu.

OK, what is your maximun number of defects per 10K rounds for an acceptable batch? Mine is ZERO!

 

[Sir_Macadoo]

you are missing the point of AQL.

 

[EddieCoyle]

The problem with the weighing method is that it doesn't work when you need it the most - like dropping 2.7 grains of Bullseye into a .38 Special case. Mixed brass and variations in bullet weight will easily mask a double charge or a no-charge.

It's better to get in the habit of looking at the case before you seat the bullet.

 

[TZCHRIS]

you are missing the point of AQL.

Then please help me out, I use this everyday in the aircraft industry.

"Associated with the AQL is a confidence statement one can make. If the lot passes the sampling plan, one can state with 95% confidence that the quality level of the lot is equal to or better than the AQL (i.e., the defective rate of the lot < AQL). On the other hand, if the lot fails the sampling plan, one can state with 95% confidence that the quality level of the lot is worse than the AQL. "

I can state with 100% confidence my ammo is 'as advertised' or per recipe. Would you shoot my ammo if I told you I was 95% sure you will not have any issues with it? What if I said I was 99% and gave you 1000 rounds?

- - - Updated - - -

The problem with the weighing method is that it doesn't work when you need it the most - like dropping 2.7 grains of Bullseye into a .38 Special case. Mixed brass and variations in bullet weight will easily mask a double charge or a no-charge.

It's better to get in the habit of looking at the case before you seat the bullet.

I agree! I only load 5.56/.223 and that one is a little dificult to look inside.

 

[EddieCoyle]

I agree! I only load 5.56/.223 and that one is a little dificult to look inside.

To each his own I guess.

I load an average of 1K .223 per month and I look in every one of them. It's actually the best caliber for quick visual inspection. It's very easy to spot an overcharge, and if you can see powder at all, there's enough in there to avoid a squib.

Also, 30 minutes to weigh 1000 rounds? Dude.

 

[Sir_Macadoo]

and I use it every day in the pharmaceutical industry including injection devices that require a 0 defect rate. We still use AQL and SPC to manufacture batch sizes well over 100K. We cant accept defects either, and we do not test (destructive or nondestructive) 100% of our vials, syringes, injectors, infusion bags etc.

I would also remind that you can not test an item into compliance. Meaning, testing post produciton samples is the lamest way to measure quality. We are getting way off topic and I dont want to start any wars.

I applaud your effort and dillgence to test-weigh each and every round. I sympathize with your desire for quality, but would focus my time and effort on other ways other than filtering out the OOS rounds after the manufacturing process has completed.

 

[TZCHRIS]

Also, 30 minutes to weigh 1000 rounds? Dude.

True story! Just checked my numbers with a 100 lot size (2 min for 100 rounds) I was thinking of making a video on my reloading, if and when I will be sure to include the weigh in! The only thing holding me back on the video is the criticism from all the 'experts' but I am sure it would help new reloaders or even guys just thinking about reloading. I run my brass 3 times thru my Lee Pro 1000, 1)decap/size 2)prime 3)powder & bullet. I am sure there are 1000 ways to load .223 and at least 20 of them probably work just fine.

 

[Slowdive]

True story! Just checked my numbers with a 100 lot size (2 min for 100 rounds)...... I am sure there are 1000 ways to load .223 and at least 20 of them probably work just fine.

This won't work, you have serious tolerance stacking issues. Assume nominally you have 55gns for bullet, 25gns for powder, and 90gns for the case...that's 170 gns per round (ignore primer for this example). x 100 = 17,000 gns per lot. Your trying to find a missing 25gns. which is 0.14%. Even single head stamp match brass can vary by 2 gns to 4gns. So each lot COULD have up to 200 to 400 grains of variation, but will almost certainly have 50gns to 60gns variation. How do you expect to find 25gns of missing powder.

Statistically you can't.

 

[TZCHRIS]

We are getting off topic I think? But I ran a 'lot' of 100 rnds in which I weigh every single round individually, video comming soon.

 

[bill o]

This won't work, you have serious tolerance stacking issues. Assume nominally you have 55gns for bullet, 25gns for powder, and 90gns for the case...that's 170 gns per round (ignore primer for this example). x 100 = 17,000 gns per lot. Your trying to find a missing 25gns. which is 0.14%. Even single head stamp match brass can vary by 2 gns to 4gns. So each lot COULD have up to 200 to 400 grains of variation, but will almost certainly have 50gns to 60gns variation. How do you expect to find 25gns of missing powder.

Statistically you can't.

I think he meant he weighed each of 100 rounds individually and it took him two minutes(!), not 100 rounds on the scale at the same time.

 

[Slowdive]

We are getting off topic I think? But I ran a 'lot' of 100 rnds in which I weigh every single round individually, video comming soon.

True story! Just checked my numbers with a 100 lot size (2 min for 100 rounds)

I can't wait to see that video, 1.2seconds per round! Even if I could work at the speed of light, my scale takes 3 or 4 seconds to stabilize.

 

[TZCHRIS]

Hornady Electronic Scale, works mint!

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

One additional QC test I do when guaging my finished rifle ammo is to shake the cartridge. I still have good enough hearing and sense of feeling in my fingertips to hear and feel the powder shaking inside the cartridge.

I agree with EddieCoyle in the above posts, if there is enough powder to see it at all in a .223 there's enough to prevent a lodged bullet and visual checking is the best way to insure there's powder in the round.

With pistol calbers, I look at every round as I place the bullet for seating. I have a good light mounted at the proper height and angle above the press to make it clearly visible. This is one reason why I deliberately didn't get an auto indexing press and stuck with the Dillon 550B.

Weighing completed rounds is a waste of time in my opinion as far as a QC check goes. Its better to prevent an error before it happens.

 

[TZCHRIS]

Ok, thanks, video canceled, my procedure sucks, have a nice day.

 

[bill o]

Ok, thanks, video canceled, my procedure sucks, have a nice day.

I am eager to see how you weigh rounds at a rate of one per 1.2 seconds. Please reconsider.

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

Ok, thanks, video canceled, my procedure sucks, have a nice day.

Not trying to offend, just trying to point out that there are better procedures, even if they present a little more difficulty in doing them. Haste and distractions in reloading can lead to mistakes that can cause damage to your gun, injury or death to you or bystanders.

I'm curious as to where you learned that proceedure of weighing the rounds. I've never met any experienced reloader that does it.

 

[TZCHRIS]

I'm curious as to where you learned that proceedure of weighing the rounds. I've never met any experienced reloader that does it.

Maybe we should start a new thread? I have a masters degree in manufacturing with 20+ years of hands on and to me reloading is nothing more than a 'manufacturing process' EC will disagree with me and thats ok but I find it dificult to look into every round of .223 brass to ensure there is powder, between filling the brass, watching powder level in hopper, loading bullet, clearing completed round that failed to fall down chute my hands are full. I think you would need a good light and then be looking straight down into the brass, wouldn't the top die plate be in the way? Maybe next session I will give it a try, never said my way is the best, just said it works for me. My other issue with looking in the brass is if you forget to look into just one and you pull the handle and that brass falls into the bucket that already has 375 rounds in it what do you do? Keep in mind I have never had a round with no powder, I have had 2 or 3 rounds that the primer wasnt seated fully, cought them in the weigh in process due to the fact that with a primer not seated fully the round will not stand up on the scale. I never tell my machine operators how to run their machines and the book or manual isnt always the best either. If they find more efficient, safe and accurate ways of producing high quality parts then who am I to tell them they are all wrong? Have you ever seen soda or beer being filled at 1000 cans per minute, the sensor on the belt kicks out the cans that don't meet a min weight, seems to work ok? I have heard of guys who can 'shake' a .223 round and tell if its ok, does this sound better than weighing them? I can shake them and tell if something is in there but as to how much of that something?????

Has anyone ever done or heard of anyone testing as to how light of a load you need to get a squib? I realize this would be specific to bullet, powder, gun, barrel, barrel length. Would be interesting to know aprox how much or little powder you need to prevent a quib?

I think we should keep this one about squib loads and refer to my new thread on reloading procedures, thanks.

 

[EddieCoyle]

Maybe we should start a new thread? I have a masters degree in manufacturing with 20+ years of hands on and to me reloading is nothing more than a 'manufacturing process' EC will disagree with me and thats ok but I find it dificult to look into every round of .223 brass to ensure there is powder, between filling the brass, watching powder level in hopper, loading bullet, clearing completed round that failed to fall down chute my hands are full. I think you would need a good light and then be looking straight down into the brass, wouldn't the top die plate be in the way? Maybe next session I will give it a try, never said my way is the best, just said it works for me. My other issue with looking in the brass is if you forget to look into just one and you pull the handle and that brass falls into the bucket that already has 375 rounds in it what do you do? Keep in mind I have never had a round with no powder, I have had 2 or 3 rounds that the primer wasnt seated fully, cought them in the weigh in process due to the fact that with a primer not seated fully the round will not stand up on the scale. I never tell my machine operators how to run their machines and the book or manual isnt always the best either. If they find more efficient, safe and accurate ways of producing high quality parts then who am I to tell them they are all wrong? Have you ever seen soda or beer being filled at 1000 cans per minute, the sensor on the belt kicks out the cans that don't meet a min weight, seems to work ok? I have heard of guys who can 'shake' a .223 round and tell if its ok, does this sound better than weighing them? I can shake them and tell if something is in there but as to how much of that something?????

With the right light (which I made sure I have) I can look into each .223 case as I seat the bullet. I mean, I have to look at the case to put the bullet on top of it, right? I made sure my setup allowed me to check the powder at the same time.

As I said earlier, if I can see powder, I know I won't have a squib, and an overcharge is just as easy to detect (powder in the neck). If my setup was such that I couldn't see into the cases, I'd change it so that it was (or get a powder check die).

I'm not the least bit worried about a squib. If I pull the trigger and the round doesn't go off, I make sure there's a bullet in the ejected round or I check the gun.

I'm more worried about an overcharge, which your method will probably not detect. By your own admission, you see a variance of 4 grains with your brass (my experience with mixed brass is that the variation is much greater than +/- 2 grains). If you throw a heavy charge into a light case, you'll never detect it by weighing. I will. You would too if you looked instead of (or in addition to) weighing.

Throw a 'normal' charge into a .223 case and then throw one two grains heavier. You'll see that it's pretty easy to tell the difference if you look at it. Not so much if you're relying on weighing them at the end. That two grains of powder can mean the difference between your gun blowing up, or not. This can easily happen too. You get a little bit of powder hung up in the measure causing one round to be a few grains light, and then it all drops into the next case making it a few grains too heavy. It sticks out like a sore thumb when you look at the case.

You are right that there are many ways to skin the ammo-making cat. Some methods are better than others, and some are just wrong. All the more reason why I won't shoot most other peoples' reloads.

Has anyone ever done or heard of anyone testing as to how light of a load you need to get a squib? I realize this would be specific to bullet, powder, gun, barrel, barrel length. Would be interesting to know aprox how much or little powder you need to prevent a quib?

This would be a very dangerous thing to try. Lighter than specified loads (especially with ball powders) can cause outrageous pressure spikes (>150,000 psi) that can potentially destroy the gun and the shooter.

 

[bill o]

This would be a very dangerous thing to try. Lighter than specified loads (especially with ball powders) can cause outrageous pressure spikes (>150,000 psi) that can potentially destroy the gun and the shooter.

I've never heard this before. What exactly is happening that causes the pressure spike?

 

[Slowdive]

Powder is supposed to deflagrate (burn) not detonate (explode). When you underfill a case, the primer flash could "flash over" the powder which now has a large exposed surface area. This can cause all the the powder to ignite nearly instantly resulting in huge pressure spikes...read explode or detonate.

 

[EddieCoyle]

I've never heard this before. What exactly is happening that causes the pressure spike?

There's no agreement on why (or if) it happens. I believe that the phenomenon is real, because it's happened to too many experienced reloaders/shooters.

One theory is that instead of lighting the powder at the back of the case and having it burn progressively forward, the primer 'flashes over' a light load of powder laying flat in the bottom of the case, setting it all off at once and causing a pressure spike.

Another theory puts the cause on worn guns, secondary pressures, and something called the "Catch-Up Theory". You can read about it here:

http://www.shootingsoftware.com/barrel.htm

 

[bill o]

Interesting. Thanks.

 

[Supermoto]

I shake my .223 rounds like a maraca. I also use a allen wrench to check for powder while load.... its all very high tech